Losing the Holy Spirit

[lilitalienboi16]

Dear Brethren,

I may have forgotten with time such a simple scriptural truth but alas today I found myself in a position to answer just such a question and believe I may have misspoke.

I found where ray speaks about this subject and he argues that we can lose the holy spirit. Here is where I found this:

CAN WE LOSE GOD'S SPIRIT AND EONIAN LIFE?

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7047.0.html --------------------------

John 6:63  It is the spirit that quickens; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

See you can not really differentiate between those two. Spirit is life, spirit doesn't die. Flesh dies. If you have life in you, you have God's Spirit. If you have God's Spirit in you, you have life. It doesn't mean that you're not going to physically die, but at least while you're living you have some other kind of life in you. If you don't have that life in you, then you're no different than an infidel that has no religion, no faith and maybe has not even any morality as to why he should live above any other citizens or criminals or whatever. 

You know it is an amazing thing that we have two and a half million people in prisons in America. Out of those two and a half million at least two million of them are Christians. So almost all criminals in prisons are Christians.

Rom 8:10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life...

Now here is the point I want to make, spirit is life and life is spirit. Now back to verse 15. 

Can we lose out... well we read the Scripture that if you sin willfully - willingly there is no more sacrifice for you. Now look at this verse, many people probably never really saw it before. 

1 John 3:15  Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal (eonian or age lasting) life abiding (the Greek is "staying or "REMAINING")  in him.

So the Greek is staying or remaining. Now if you just read that without all the background that I'm giving you, then you get the feeling that, well he won't be given God's abiding life. No, he already has it. The only way something cannot stay in you or not remain in you, is if it's in you. Do you follow that? It's in you. 

He's not talking to Barbarians here or infidels, he's talking to the congregation who have the Spirit of God. But he says if you hate your brother the spirit of God will no longer stay with you, it will no longer be in you. If the Spirit of God is not in you, you are no longer His. Then you are going to the judgment. That's just how simple that is. All through these Scriptures if you read carefully, maybe it doesn't have it just like this, but this is just a poor translation. But if you read Concordant and Rotherham and all, they will tell you to 'stay' - 'remain.'  It means to remain, but it won't remain. You see it's there, but it's coming out. 

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For the context of my situation, I told three people who approached me with this question that we cannot lose the spirit of God. If we lose it, its because we never had it. I continued that the elect of God cannot be lost. God will not lose those that are His.

So... here is my delima. Yes, God cannot lose that are His, we know this.  (Ray answers that in an email - http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2059.msg16747.html#msg16747)

Here are the scriptures:

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 Peter 1:1-3
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Here then is the subtle nuance. Is it truth to say then that the elect of God cannot be lost but simply because this is true doesn't mean that ALONG THE WAY to being justified by God and ultimately saved that an elect may not have some point in the past lost that holy spirit but then God as part of the process gave it back? Or is it that once the holy spirit is lost that God does not give it back to a man until the great white throne? Are there any more scriptures which show this idea that we can lose the holy spirit of God?

I know this might seem like I'm splitting hairs here... but I want to make sure I am speaking truthfully and this one little question that was asked me forced me to look at this in a perspective, with all it nuances, that I had not thought considered more deeply.

Thanks for all the insight.

God bless,
Alex

[Rhys 🕊]

From the same article Ray says -

Now I have the subtitle, 'Is "once saved, always saved" Scripturally true or false?' Well yes, of course it is true. The only thing is WHEN are you saved, you see? 


It seems to answer it for me. The elect may go through many things but the outcome will be the same as God has willed for them.


Rhys

[Kat]

Now here is the point I want to make, spirit is life and life is spirit. Now back to verse 15. 

Can we lose out... well we read the Scripture that if you sin willfully - willingly there is no more sacrifice for you. Now look at this verse, many people probably never really saw it before. 

1 John 3:15  Whosoever hates his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal (eonian or age lasting) life abiding (the Greek is "staying or "REMAINING")  in him.

So the Greek is staying or remaining. Now if you just read that without all the background that I'm giving you, then you get the feeling that, well he won't be given God's abiding life. No, he already has it. The only way something cannot stay in you or not remain in you, is if it's in you. Do you follow that? It's in you. 

Hi Alex, here is the Scripture you are focus on here, now here is an interesting comment Christ made.

John 15:5  `I am the vine, ye the branches; he who is remaining in Me, and I in him, this one doth bear much fruit, because apart from Me ye are not able to do anything;
v. 6  if any one may not remain in Me, he was cast forth without as the branch, and was withered, and they gather them, and cast to fire, and they are burned; (Young's)

I have often thought that the parable of the Sower and the seed could be speaking of those who have their eyes opened (receive the Holy Spirit?), but do not endure to the end. So as you wonder can a person loose the Holy Spirit, this does seem like it could apply to some of those in this parable.

Matt 13:18  "Therefore hear the parable of the sower:
v. 19  When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

I can see how this verse 19 is speaking of the church in general.

Mat 13:20  But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
Mat 13:21  yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Now look how so many embrace these truths initially, but cannot endure at all... did they receive the Spirit?

Mat 13:22  Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

Maybe a religious hobbyist? We've had a few people come through here that really embraced "the word" of truth, but didn't last too long, not here anyway.

Mat 13:23  But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."

So I'm wondering if there are those who have the Holy Spirit and their eyes are opened, but obviously were not elected or chosen to endure to the end, it was just a temporary thing. I do not see this as the "first love" thing though, because in Hebrews, it does say specifically that when a person is actually enlightened, "partakers" of the Holy Spirit and then "falls away"... it's for good, in this life anyway.

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers (G3353- participant, that is, a sharer; by implication an associate: - fellow, partaker, partner) of the Holy Spirit,
v. 5  and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
v. 6  if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
v. 7  For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
v. 8  but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

Now a second witness is what Paul said that he was not so arrogant as to suppose he could not fall away.

1Co 9:26  Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
v. 27  But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified. (NKJV)

Easy to read version
1Co 9:26  So I run like someone who has a goal. I fight like a boxer who is hitting something, not just the air.
v. 27  It is my own body I fight to make it do what I want. I do this so that I won't miss getting the prize myself after telling others about it.

So obviously there are those that do not endure to the end in this life, or there would be no need for the warning about not enduring.

Rev 17:14  These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful."

Mat 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:13  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Now there are many who assume that they have the Holy Spirit, the whole church, but actually never have... and there are the 'tares' as well, that I don't think ever actually have the Holy Spirit, because they remain with the elect (Matt 13:28-29). So there is a lot to think about, and a person certainly should not be complacent about there situation of understanding truth, that's for sure.

But even for the elect it is a long process with much ups and downs, and I really don't think that the Holy Spirit indwelling is so obvious... Scripture says you will know the Spirit is indwelling, by their fruit.

Matt 7:16  You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
v. 17  Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

There is also much comfort in Christ's words.

John 10:27  according as I said to you: My sheep My voice do hear, and I know them, and they follow Me,
v. 28  and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish--to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of My hand;
v. 29  My Father, who hath given to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck out of the hand of My Father;
v. 30  I and the Father are one.' (Young's)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Rhys and Kat, thanks a lot. Really appreciate the digging you did on this one Kat and there is definitely a lot think about.

Hebrews definitely seems to imply that once the holy spirit departs, it does not return to a person until the next age. I agree that this falling away of hebrews is not the same as that of leaving our first love, this specifies to those being enlightened and partaking--Even crucifying the Son of God again! I don't think that's the same as leaving our first love though, thats more like the prodigal son walking off and rolling around in his own filth for a while but certainly not crucifying the Son of God again and putting Him to open shame.

Thanks again both of you and God bless. If anyone has more to add please feel free.

Kindly,
Alex

[rick]

Can we lose out... well we read the Scripture that if you sin willfully - willingly there is no more sacrifice for you. Now look at this verse, many people probably never really saw it before. 

Alex

Hi Alex,

Sounds like what I used to hear in Christendom, one can lose the Holy Spirit, the unpardonable sin and oh yeah, hell is the place one goes for one of the above two.

Just sounds like a free willed person to me, the kind you find in Christendom.


One is either the elect of God or their not, I don't believe there is any such thing as the unpardonable sin because all will eventually be saved so therefore all sin will be forgiven.

So those whom were chosen by God to be and elect, not that they had some special quality that cause God to choose them but God chose them before He created them.

All those whom God has not chosen in this age will be in the white throne judgement not because of any special quality they have but because God chose them to.

What ever Gods intentions are concerning His creatures will come to pass and let us all be thankful that its Gods will that all be saved and we know and believe Gods will, will be done in this aged and every other aged that follows.

Why should anyone worry about anything when God is in control of all things?

P.s. All sin will be forgiven, past, present and future, I know this personally because I know personally that its Gods will that all be saved so it stands to reason that its Gods intentions to forgive all so that all can be saved and all will be saved.

Its not a question of will you be saved because its Gods intentions that you will be saved and saved you will be.

The only question is when will you be saved and that is Gods business and not ours.

God bless. 

[Kat]

Rick, I think you are missing the point here. Yes salvation is assured for everybody eventually, but the believers of THIS age are in hopes of the "first resurrection." I know this is predetermined by God, of course the sovereign God has chosen those that will be powerful spiritual servants with Christ in His reign on earth... we all are well aware of that. But there is a very big difference which resurrection one is in, glorious eonian life is what all believers in Christ hope for, the first resurrection. So Alex had a legitimate question, can one having their eyes opened and the Spirit indwelling, lose that? Apparently so.

2Peter 3:17  You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

You seem to be saying 'so what' we'll all still receive salvation eventually. Yes that is true, but we have our eyes opened to the truth, we have tasted of the good things of the kingdom, why would we just sit back and not even care if we missed out on the greatness thing a human being could ever hope to attain? I know it's not up to us, but I do believe the attitude of desiring the kingdom above all else, shows God Spirit is indeed at work in a person.

Matt 6:33  But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.

We should greatly desire to be one of His sheep... how great would the disappointment be to find yourself among the unjust/goats at resurrection.

Mat 25:32  All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.
v. 33  And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 25:41  "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Mat 25:46 And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

What I'm saying is that we should care, a lot, and no not worry, but striving and running hard in the race as Paul spoke of... the opposite of just being lackadaisical about it all.

Php 1:27  Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel,

Luke 13:24  "Strive(G75) to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

G75 Strive agōnizomai - to struggle, literally (to compete for a prize), figuratively (to contend with an adversary), or generally (to endeavor to accomplish something): - fight, labor fervently, strive.

So being here among other believers with the same hopes of the kingdom, we should be encouraging one another to stand firm in the truths we are learning, first and foremost seek the kingdom, the narrow gate, the prize above all prizes. To Paul all of his suffering, and there was a lot, was well worth it to him, he certainly made it through that narrow gate and so can we, God willing.

1Cor 2:9  But as it is written, "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard," nor has it entered into the heart of man, "the things which God has prepared for those who love Him."

Psa 31:19  Oh, how great is Your goodness, Which You have laid up for those who fear You, Which You have prepared for those who trust in You In the presence of the sons of men!

Mat 25:34  Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[lilitalienboi16]

Hi Rick, and to anyone who may have miss understood my post,

Kat understood what I was searching out so read her post as she said what I did not feel like posting. Hopefuly her replies and my original post will clear up any confusion.

God bless,
Alex

[Mortemir]

Great subject Alex and a good answer Kat.
It really got my mind to think.  Will you ever now that you don't have it anymore? I just think about myself. I have so many errors and it feels impossible to fix ( even though it is not impossible for God). I will always have the belief, but what if believing is not enough. I have always thought, when you read the bible you have to suffer in this life. Then i think, what do i need to suffer? Yes one of the things is that you believe in something that almost no one on this earth believes, but everyone who believes have a individual suffering.  Only Gods knows the outcome.

[rick]

Rick, I think you are missing the point here.

Hi Kat,

I don't believe I misunderstood what Alex was getting at, and I certainly am not saying well God is going to save all so why care.

I believe in the sovereignty of God is what I'm saying Kat, I can wish to be one of the elect all I want but its Gods choice if I am, now, there is nothing about me that would cause God to choose me.

God has predetermined who will be one of the elect according to His purpose. We all start off with the carnal mind, hatred against God, its impossible for anyone to say on any given day of the week, gee I think I will believe in God while under the influence of the carnal mind.

God must somehow convince us to believe in Him, afterwards He must get the truth to us, the real truth not Christendom's truth and then get us to believe it.

Now of course this is not a difficult thing for God to do, but we should always remember its God who called us and its God who leads us and its God who chooses us, we do not have the ability to make an uncaused choice so God will provide all the circumstances in our life that will cause His to choose each choice that leads to life or the first resurrection.

I cannot change a single hair on my head white or black nor do I know what one hour from now holds in store for me and I certainty cannot save myself from myself, I can't even trust God to save me unless He lets me trust Him to save me.

There are two things I know and that is deep in my own soul there is something not right about me and two God will save me from myself, that's all God can save me from which is me, the man of sin.

I trust God that much because He has cause me to trust in Him, to rest in Him and to except what ever His will and purpose is for me, when I think about being an elect of God I say great my next question is what is my motive for wanting to be an elect ?

     
That is a very important question for me to answer to myself because the carnal mind wants the very best for itself, things such as power, the kind of power Gods elect will have, things like glory, the kind of glory Gods elect will have.

The human heart is deceitful above all things, I have no choice except to trust God for my life, I guess that is what I mean Kat.

I say its where God has me, where God wants me, where I must be not that I always want to be where I'm at but its better than being no place at all without God.

I said it long ago on this forum and I still believe it now, I am the least of you all. 

[Kat]

That's good Rick, you have assurance about God's sovereignty... I think we all do here, to me it seems a rather basic fundamental concept for believers. i can see that no free will and all is caused is a harder concept to grasp.  I only know you by what you post and so I react just to that, we certainly do not know that much about one another here and it's easy to misinterpret what somebody is trying to say.

It seems strange to me that you would question your motive for being chosen as one of the few... the power and glory the elect will receive to reign with Christ will be guided by the Holy Spirit in full measure, as Christ has, not by the deceitfulness of a carnal heart.

Yes God brings up to where we are at any given time, but we don't remain there, we continue to grow in understanding and progress forward.  If we are waiting on God to cause us to progress, it almost seems like an excuse to me, maybe I'm reading you wrong on this, it just an opinion. I think of what Christ said about getting to comfortable resting too much on our laurels, so to speak.

Rev 3:15  "'I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot!
v. 16  So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.

This might not be you at all, but it's worth bringing to the discussion as a reminder to us all. God wants us to be "hot," full of zeal and earnestness about this calling, I believe that is an attitude of being eager to move forward. Anyway I hope this is encouraging, as it is meant to be to one and all.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[John from Kentucky]

Yes, it is important to be hot rather than lukewarm.

However, if we are hot, then we didn't have anything to do with it.  It came from God, from above.  It all comes from above.

We cannot decide to do good, or work ourselves up.  All good works come from God and God alone.

For by grace you have been saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Eph 2:8

Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit says the LORD Almighty. Zech 4:6

[Terry]

Hello all
This is a subject i think about daily i don't know why God waited so long to allow me to see spiritual things,it seems i grow so slow, it seems that God moves in my life as slow as winter molasses the temptaions of some sins from the past seems to not bother me as before but still i battle daily with the flesh i'll be 63 in Jan. i thought sin would lighten up as i get older or rather my desire for sin i guess i'm not old enough yet,

The thing is now i hate my sins, i truly do, before i never really thought about it, i would love to be as close to God as some of you i feel something must be wrong with me, if i could change my life i would have done it 40 yrs. ago i couldn't do it  then i can't do it now if i could i would but with God's help i know i will make it,the scripture that comes to me while i'm on this journey is He is the potter and i am the clay i know i'm not much to look at now but when i come out of the fire i know i'll be beautiful how could i not be,

I know the things i go through now i hate but it must have needed to be this way i don't question his will i just try to roll with it,i love all of you so much, i wish i felt stronger that i might feel better posting. but i love reading here and reading ya'll's posts it really helps,my mind and heart is on that far away country.
God Bless
Terry


,

[Kat]

Hi terry, it is a slow process and we live our life in the world what seems like a really long time. When our eyes are open then we are being made into a new creation, there's a lot that goes into that, but the more you put into it the more you get out of it, until we bring "every thought into captivity" (2 Cor 10:5), so "that we should no longer be slaves of sin" (Rom 6:6). All we can do is keep on doing the best we can.


John, it is a well established fact here that God is sovereign and in control of all things... to keep repeating that can not make it more so. Yes those Scripture you brought are very true, it all comes from the Father through Christ and is working in us by the Holy Spirit.

Php 2:13  for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

But you know John, that the rest of what is in the Scripture must always be considered as well, like what it says elsewhere in Philippians.

Php 2:12  Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;

Php 4:13  I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

Entering into God's 'rest' does not mean you don't have to do anything. Why would somebody want to keep saying, "we cannot decide to do good, or work ourselves up"? I happen to think that it can be a cop out... the surface of it is true, but there is much more to it, it's like an excuse to fall back on for not doing more. Paul analogy of running a race, is not sitting on the sidelines, running is an expression that implies doing something. What about what Christ said to the servant that hid his gift in a napkin?

Our struggle is daily to overcome the flesh, to enter the narrow gate, of course by the Holy Spirit. This overcoming is not done to us, but in us, it requires our effort, it requires our putting on the whole armor of God.

Eph 6:13  Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
v. 14  Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
v. 15  and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
v. 16  above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.
v. 17  And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;
v. 18  praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[John from Kentucky]

Yes Kat, Ray has discussed Philippians 2 verses 12 and 13.

Ray said the emphasis is not so much on verse 12---"work out you own salvation", but rather on verse 13---"it is God Who works in you both to will and do."

We work with fear and trembling because it is God Who does the works, it all depends on God.

Give all the glory to God.  All the works are from Jesus, the Hope of Glory.

I am not saying we do not have to do anything.  It is you who are implying that is what I am saying.

All the works, all the effort, come from God.  I emphasize God as opposed to the false idea of human good works or effort.

And I will continue to repeat and put the emphasis on God, which is where all the credit goes.

[John from Kentucky]

Terry,

God will work everything out and bless you in the end.

We are all in the same boat.  We all sin.

Jesus said there is only one Who is good, that is God.

The rest of us are just toads beneath the plow.  But there is great happiness for us because God will save all of us in the end.

Take care friend.

John

[repottinger]

Thank you for that, John; I completely agree with what you said. I know that God will work in you in His own time (as He does in each of us), Terry, and—yes—I know from experience how humbling it can be. But I think that you're doing very well and making a great contribution to the forum with postings like this one.
Your brother in Christ,
Randy

[Jeff]

Hello all
This is a subject i think about daily i don't know why God waited so long to allow me to see spiritual things,it seems i grow so slow, it seems that God moves in my life as slow as winter molasses the temptaions of some sins from the past seems to not bother me as before but still i battle daily with the flesh i'll be 63 in Jan. i thought sin would lighten up as i get older or rather my desire for sin i guess i'm not old enough yet,

The thing is now i hate my sins, i truly do, before i never really thought about it, i would love to be as close to God as some of you i feel something must be wrong with me, if i could change my life i would have done it 40 yrs. ago i couldn't do it  then i can't do it now if i could i would but with God's help i know i will make it,the scripture that comes to me while i'm on this journey is He is the potter and i am the clay i know i'm not much to look at now but when i come out of the fire i know i'll be beautiful how could i not be,

I know the things i go through now i hate but it must have needed to be this way i don't question his will i just try to roll with it,i love all of you so much, i wish i felt stronger that i might feel better posting. but i love reading here and reading ya'll's posts it really helps,my mind and heart is on that far away country.
God Bless
Terry


,

Terry,

Just going from what you wrote I can tell that we may have had a similar experience. My problem tends to be that I lose sight of the goal, stray, and then God brings me (almost violently) back to reality.  When He shows me my sin, I'm horrified, and it shatters me until He's ready to release me from the pain.  That's been going for 50 years, but I didn't understand it until He brought me here.

I'm slow to learn, I fall easily, and suffer for it.  Some years I think I'm making progress, others I seem to go backwards, but it's all part of the fiery trials that burn away the carnality in me.  You aren't alone. There are 7 billion people who struggle daily and only a handful know why.  You're blessed to have your eyes opened.  I know you want more, but that hunger is God working in you.

I think it's a slow process because few things in life are valuable without great effort. The pace has value and purpose.

Are we there yet? Even as an adult I find myself asking this question in prayer.  Of course the answer is always no, because the time isn't "now".

"The steadfast of mind Thou wilt keep in perfect peace because he trusts in Thee." Isaiah 26:3
"The steps of a man are established by the Lord, and He delights in his way." Psalm 37:23

"Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you." (1 Peter 5: 6-7)

Almost every bit of suffering in my life comes from impatience, some of it has impacted in such a way, that it will be a part of me until I'm in hell. I hope Jesus comes back before that, but the consequences are mine.

It's easy to find Scripture that relates to our circumstances, and another thing to heed them, but that is our lot.

I take comfort in knowing that God is in control and NOT me!

Peace,
Jeff

[Kat]

Yes Kat, Ray has discussed Philippians 2 verses 12 and 13.

Ray said the emphasis is not so much on verse 12---"work out you own salvation", but rather on verse 13---"it is God Who works in you both to will and do."

We work with fear and trembling because it is God Who does the works, it all depends on God.

Give all the glory to God.  All the works are from Jesus, the Hope of Glory.

I am not saying we do not have to do anything.  It is you who are implying that is what I am saying.

All the works, all the effort, come from God.  I emphasize God as opposed to the false idea of human good works or effort.

And I will continue to repeat and put the emphasis on God, which is where all the credit goes.

We can never give God to much praise and certainly all glory goes to Him and "He is before all things, and in Him all things consist." All I'm saying is that in our discussions here, I think it helps to include our part in the process, as we are involved in all this. We are discussing our lives and hopefully encouraging one another in what we actually are trying to do or whatever. But we can never forget that God is behind the scenes and bringing everything about according to His will.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[rick]

It seems strange to me that you would question your motive for being chosen as one of the few... the power and glory the elect will receive to reign with Christ will be guided by the Holy Spirit in full measure, as Christ has, not by the deceitfulness of a carnal heart.

Hi Kat,

It doesn't seem a strange thing to me to question my motives and here is the reason why, no carnal minded person is coming to God on there own, God must drag them to Himself, I don't believe it's a one time act of God dragging us to Himself.

There is a huge difference between Jesus and all believers and that difference is Jesus, even though He was fully man He certainly did not have a carnal mind. The carnal mind is hatred towards God.

But all believes which includes myself have a carnal mind , that is why God must drag us to Himself, this is a constant dragging of us believes by God to Himself, this is why we all struggle with sin and temptation because we are not fully Christ minded.

Now we are commanded by scripture to put on the mind of Christ, if a believer could actually   
put on the mind of Christ of their own accord, what believer would not do that. But its God who instills the mind of Christ in the believer.

I am a carnal minded man sold under sin who God has dragged to Himself and is teaching and training me as He does all other believers to grow in righteousness, the end of that training is when I believe we then have the mind of Christ in full measure until then we are subjected to error.

I am not there yet and that is why I question my motives because I do not have the mind of Christ in full measure for if I did I would not have sinned because Christ did not sin.

The human heart is deceitful above all things and I trust myself for nothing in this life so I question everything that is given me to question.

If one desires to be Gods elect they should think of two things, is this the prompting of the Holy Spirit which is pure or is it the carnal mind wanting to assert itself ?

I come to believe that whatever we human beings do is totally self centered in all things in all areas, anything that we do that is good can only be from God if one is not saved or by the prompting of the Holy spirit if one is on their way to salvation because we are not saved as of now but are in process of being saved.

When one no longer sins or cannot be tempted to sin they then have the mind of Christ in fullness.

We are carnal minded people having a spiritual experience for we are still in the physical, the resurrection has not happen yet.     

God does it all in us and through us, it is Christ that does the work in us so that no man can boast. If someone says they are doing this or doing that in the Lord chances are its not Christ that is doing this or doing that but because they say their doing it then they can boast but God says no one can boast. We are not in control of anything in life one way or the other, what a humbling thing that is to discover.

Are we the potter or are we the clay ? The clay can do nothing the potter does everything and the clay will have the form the potter gives it and who is the clay that should answer back why.


god bless. 

[Kat]

I am a carnal minded man sold under sin who God has dragged to Himself and is teaching and training me as He does all other believers to grow in righteousness, the end of that training is when I believe we then have the mind of Christ in full measure until then we are subjected to error.

I am not there yet and that is why I question my motives because I do not have the mind of Christ in full measure for if I did I would not have sinned because Christ did not sin.

The human heart is deceitful above all things and I trust myself for nothing in this life so I question everything that is given me to question.

If one desires to be Gods elect they should think of two things, is this the prompting of the Holy Spirit which is pure or is it the carnal mind wanting to assert itself ?

I come to believe that whatever we human beings do is totally self centered in all things in all areas, anything that we do that is good can only be from God if one is not saved or by the prompting of the Holy spirit if one is on their way to salvation because we are not saved as of now but are in process of being saved.

Rick, I really do get it that God is in control of all things and yes as long as we are in this flesh we are subject to error. Sometimes I wonder if we might overthink some of these things and just get stuck. But to desire to be among the chosen few is always a good thing whatever the motive, even if you are not chosen it would still benefit you to seek Christ. Anyway here is a couple of Scripture that show how they dealt with people that were outside of Christ's chosen few followers.

Php 1:15  Some are preaching the Messiah because of jealousy and dissension, while others do so because of their good will.
v. 16  The latter are motivated by love, because they know that I have been appointed to defend the gospel.
v. 17  The former proclaim the Messiah because they are selfishly ambitious and insincere, thinking that they will stir up trouble for me during my imprisonment.
v. 18  But so what? Just this—that in every way, whether by false or true motives, the Messiah is being proclaimed. Because of this, I rejoice and will continue to rejoice. (ISV)

Luke 9:49  John answered, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us."
v. 50  But Jesus said to him, "Do not stop him, for the one who is not against you is for you."

mercy, peace and love
Kat