Not forsaking the assembling...

[rumpelstiltskin]

I'm not trying to actively diminish the level of fellowship with "unbelievers".  I'm just recognizing that the fellowship WITH believers is HIGHER, with others less High--on down the line until I can have no fellowship with them whatsoever.  Regardless, my faith covers them all, in that they are all included in the ultimate salvation of God.

i don't personally Know any one Body of Christ ,or any church denomination for that matter.
But salvation of all includes all my non - believing Friends and family.
White throne judgment may include me for all i know and the above quote is pretty much how i see things. 

[lareli]

Largeli, firstly my faith isn't in floods, creations, or anything else.  My faith is in Jesus Christ.  Secondly, YES--the higher the 'agreement' over other matters, the higher the fellowship--especially when these matters are near or at the heart of your heart.  That should go without saying.  Otherwise, the topic is either avoided (not always a bad thing) or is argued (also not always a bad thing).

I don't have many friends...not even a large, close, extended family.  My closest natural friend is 'almost' a believer in the salvation of all, but we don't share the same beliefs on other matters important to me.  As much as I like (even love) him, there is a separation there and nothing closes that.  That's OK with me, however.  I don't even BELIEVE I'm required to have the same level of brotherly LOVE for everybody equally all the time.  Of the twelve, Jesus hung out most with three...but He loved them all.

I'm not trying to actively diminish the level of fellowship with "unbelievers".  I'm just recognizing that the fellowship WITH believers is HIGHER, with others less High--on down the line until I can have no fellowship with them whatsoever.  Regardless, my faith covers them all, in that they are all included in the ultimate salvation of God.

It's true that genuine faith affects behavior...maybe ALL faith affects behavior.  The relationship fo faith to works was much better covered by Ray than I could ever do, much less in a forum post.  If it makes you feel better, there are scattered "universalists" that I can't have fellowship with...not because somebody told me it was "wrong", but simply because I can't.

You're asking me this question (these questions) as if I am a theological hobbyist, or another guy with a bible.  No.  I LIVE this 'stuff'.  It's the most important thing in my life, and arches over and bubbles into every other important thing in my life.  No, I'm not a bible-scholar, and I can't even 'think on these things' 24/7...but I do often enough that it affects and illuminates every aspect of my life from abject failure to glimmers of hope.   

I don't mean to approach you as if you are a theological hobbyist or another guy with a bible. Just trying to get a clearer picture.

Some of us have come out of the Babylon of American Christianity but are still blind to the deceptions of our social constructs and social indoctrinations. We are born into a world of lies. And then some of us have come out of the Babylon of our social constructs but are still blind to the spiritual truth of God and Christ.

Both are deceived but one could be considered by the 'christian' definition to be a 'believer'.

[rick]

I read often where someone says I have come out  of Babylon and while that maybe true in that one stops going to the churches of Christendom how much of Babylon has come out of us ?

I personally think / believe both sides are very much deceived just in different ways but as Christ reveals His truths to us we become less deceived and further from Babylon, Its like Ray said, its a process but a process that takes a lifetime.

When one is changed in the twinkling of the eye you can be assured then you are out of Babylon and no longer deceived but until then is it not presumptuous to think otherwise ?

If one believes they already arrived what need is there to run the race ?

God bless.

[Kat]

Some of us have come out of the Babylon of American Christianity but are still blind to the deceptions of our social constructs and social indoctrinations. We are born into a world of lies. And then some of us have come out of the Babylon of our social constructs but are still blind to the spiritual truth of God and Christ.

Both are deceived but one could be considered by the 'christian' definition to be a 'believer'.

I guess we need to understand what a 'believer' really is. Before any of us can truly come to know/believe Christ  there are things that must happen in our lives, even before walking away from the church - the called... and there is a big different between the called and those that go on to be chosen. Here it is according to how Ray presented it.

http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html ----------------

THERE MUST COME A 'FALLING AWAY' FIRST

I have shown you that John, Paul, Peter, ALL of the apostles, the whole church in Asia, the Seven Churches of Revelation, the entire flock of God's called, all built their houses upon spiritual sand—in other words EVERYONE ever called by God, falls, falls down, falls away.

The Proverb tells us that, "For a just man falls seven times..." That's a COMPLETE fall. But strange as it may seem, this is necessary in God's plan. What happens to a just man after he falls seven times? "...and RISES UP AGAIN" (Prov. 24:16). When he completely falls, he falls from grace. But for those whom God is both calling AND choosing, they will RISE UP AGAIN, for

"Who are you that judges another man's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Yes, he shall be holden up [made to stand up]: for God is able to MAKE HIM STAND" (Rom. 14:4).

We will ALL FALL! But afterwards, God "raises us UP AGAIN," and "makes us STAND." And from that time onward we have this sure promise of which we read before, but I want to read again:

"Now unto Him that is able to KEEP YOU FROM FALLING, and to present you FAULTLESS before the presence of His glory with EXCEEDING JOY, To the Only Wise God Our Saviour, be glory and majesty, and dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen" (Jude 124-25)!

When John's spiritual house built upon the sand fell down, he was left, standing on the sand of the sea by himself alone with God, and it is then and only then, that he is able to see the wild beast that came up out of the sea.
v
With this in mind let's read II Thes. 2:3:

"Let no man ['let not any person,' RSV, 'Let no ONE...'] deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a FALLING AWAY first, and that man of sin [Gk: the lawless one] be revealed, the son of perdition [Gk: the one destined for destruction]. Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God [a god], or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God"

Whenever man builds his spiritual house upon the spiritual sand, his spiritual house will fall. And it is then that God reveals to him the wild beast that comes out of the sea. What does Paul tell us happens when there comes a 'FALLING AWAY' first? What follows? When our house on sand falls, what is then revealed? Why "the LAWLESS one" is "REVEALED." When the falling away occurs, then the man of sin, 'the lawless one' 'the one destined for destruction' is REVEALED.

And what a revelation it is! What a blast of the trumpet it is! What a shock to all humanity when at long last this wild beast is revealed to EVERYONE!
v
The "beast" is you!

http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html -------------------

Jesus prophesied that all who will become overcomers will have first fallen away temporarily by leaving their first love:

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against you, because you [the seven-in-one golden candlestick church of God that is, was, and will be] have LEFT YOUR FIRST LOVE" (Rev. 2:4).

Jesus Himself calls this leaving of our first love, a falling away:

"Remember therefore from whence you ARE FALLEN, and REPENT..." (Rev. 2:5).

Whenever we "fall," we leave our "first love." For spiritual falling IS, LEAVING LOVE. Jesus said that when we leave our first love we are to 'remember from whence we are FALLEN...' Love itself has not failed us, but we have failed love, for true love is not capable of failure or falling:

"Charity [Old English for 'love'] never fails..." (I Cor. 13:08).

Jesus reprimands us for "falling" from love in Rev. 2:5. Interestingly, the word translated "fails" in I Cor. 13:8 is the very same word translated "fallen" in Rev. 2:5. And so, "love never FALLS," but before we are saved, we will fall.

Why is it that this Scriptural truth is not taught in the Church? Simple: Most in the church have not as yet experienced "leaving their first love." Therefore, they are still deceived, and CANNOT see the beast within. They are still in the process of constructing their spiritual house upon the sand. Most will never see the beast in this lifetime.
v
The question presents itself: "If we truly had "love" why should we have to "fall" from it or "leave it" in the first place? Ah, herein lies one of the grandest Truths found in all Scripture!

From our first parents onward, God has always allowed men to believe that they are able of and by themselves (by their supposed phantom "free" will) to love God and be obedient to His laws. Despite God's plethora of testimonies to the contrary, theologians and philosophers alike have taught mankind that they are indeed ABLE TO CHOOSE and, ABLE TO DO and to carry out that choice, because they have the "free will" within them to do so. What they have within them is a "beast" that is no more able to choose and obey God than any literal beast of the field.
v
I showed from the Scriptures in our last installment that we only become aware of the beast when we are standing on the "sand of the sea." AFTER our spiritual house built upon spiritual sand FALLS DOWN, and WE fall down. And this is precisely why Paul tells us that the

"...day of Christ... shall not come [to US] except there come a FALLING AWAY FIRST..." (II Thes. 2:1-2).

This "fall" by the way is not a little slip or a little stumble. It is a complete and total SPIRITUAL FALL! We all come to Christ with a simple childlike innocence. But ... BUT, once we are in "the church of our choice," we start to get educated in the ways of Christendom. We learn of many rules based on the unscriptural traditions of men. We delight in many of these rules and traditions (sometimes not all of them), and before we know it, our new religion sooner or later TAKES US RIGHT BACK INTO THE WORLD that we thought we came out of.
v
So there are innumerable Scriptures that show that you and I and all humanity are or have been apollumi—lost/perished/destroyed. We all spiritually die once. The called and chosen are then judged in this lifetime, while the many called but not chosen (and all unbelievers) will be judged in the second resurrection white throne judgment.
v
Paul wasn't telling the unbelieving world that "ye are yet carnal." Nor was Jesus telling the world that they had "left their first love." No, Paul and Jesus are both telling THE CHURCH that they are "yet carnal and have left their first love"! In other words, AFTER coming into a church, AFTER they have accepted Christ, AFTER they have pursued their walk with God, AFTER they have built a spiritual house upon the sand, AFTER they have become indoctrinated with the commandments of men and the traditions of men, can one fall away and be in a position to actually spiritually SEE THE BEAST WITHIN! SEE the man of sin and the son of perdition. See your carnal-minded, God hating, SINS. You and I and all who have been enlightened by God's word and our own failures in life, can surely see that we are all spiritually, WILD BEASTS.

If you insist that: "Ray! I don't see myself as a spiritual BEAST, or a man of SIN, or the son of PERDITION [destruction]." Well, all I can to say is to parrot Paul: "YE ARE YET CARNAL."
--------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Colin]

Hello Everybody

When we read of the construction of the Temple carried out by Solomon's builders, it appears somewhat "strange" to discover that it was done with all the stones having been shaped, so they would all fit together, and, surprisingly with all of the preparatory work completed "off-site".    Subsequently, all the finished pieces were brought and assembled on site, so that there was no noise from any hammering and chiselling. 

It wasn't a public spectacle.

1Kings 6:1  And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD.
1Kings 6:7  And the house, when it was in building, was built of stone made ready before it was brought thither: so that there was neither hammer nor axe nor any tool of iron heard in the house, while it was in building.   

Why do it that way?    Nothing in God's plans, I believe, is done as a whim.   

We read that we are likened to "lively stones" and that we are (to be chosen) to form the "house of God".

1Peter 2:5  Ye also, as lively stones, are [being] built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.   

When I looked at how Paul described us, I saw a "pattern".

1Cor. 1:10  Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment [Greek γνώμη  gnōmē   = opinion, resolve].

It appears that we, like building blocks, are being "shaped" individually, with all the various life- experiences, tests and trials (chiselling) which God knows each of us requires - away from the "final building-site" – all the while being shaped (or moulded like clay) so that we "fit together" - having the same objectives, desires; God's final achievement is guaranteed.  He has the "master blueprint"....the "building plans".   

Ray told us in his paper, "Why does God love us" that we are all unique ; we need individual "chiselling", but at the same time, with the need to "fit together" with other "selected stones".     

Quote from Ray:

So what is there about you individually that can be found in no other person? Why does God need you when He has so many billions of others? Surely there can be nothing in us individually that is lacking in all other persons on earth, is there? So why can we possibly be of such great value that God would die for us? Each of us? What do you have that none other can fulfil?
And the answer is: Your "UNIQUENESS."    [End of quote.]

Unlike those who assemble in their physical churches, our treatment, our "assembling" today is different.   I think we are being dealt with individually, so that we can all be truly "assembled", spiritually, in due time.   Just like the stones of the physical Temple.   

Although most of us cannot be physically near to one another at this time, the day is coming when we will "rub shoulders spiritually".       Colin

[microlink]

As Ray said when quoting from a former writer/poet - no man is an island.

[dave]

As Ray said when quoting from a former writer/poet - no man is an island.

Good, yes.

[willemv]

Been reading all the contributions to this subject maybe three or four times because things bothering me , not only on this subject , but I feel this is a bit of a general problem and that is I feel that we do quote individual versus just a little to easy and also out of context. I know what Ray had to say about context ,context ,context and I agree with him however don't throw context completely away ,in fact Ray used context to prove that Satan is not the subject of Isaiah 14:12 as the whole chapter is about the king of Babylon. The same for Ez 28 .

An example is in this case is Mike (it could have been me )who quotes 1Cor 5:1-13 but in a haphazard way -so that I have to ask what is he trying to say? This part of Scripture has nothing to do with fellowshipping ,it has to do with judging.Paul tells the Corinthians that they (the assembly ) must judge within (the assembly) and if one is found to be a fornicator he must be banned from the assembly.God will judge those without (the assembly )-Vs 5 "to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus".And vs 13 says it all , some judgement is the responsibility of the assembly and some is God's responsibility. "But them that are without (the assembly) God judgeth. Therefore put away from yourselves that wicked person " The words in brackets are mine to make reading easy.

Jeff says he hasn't got anybody to fellowship with- no man, you must be keeping the wrong company. Being a believer in universal salvation does not save you. Being a true believer in Jesus Christ as your saviour through the mercy of the Father and the working of the Holy Spirit in you makes you a believer and overcomer and then you are an elect as your tongue and your works will witness of this.There are certainly true believers in a lot of institutions that have not heard about universal salvation and howcome are you unable to fellowship with those? Sometime or other in the process of fellowshipping the subject of universal salvation will come up and you will find an eager ear (not always) and it helps if you come across people who have experienced a "falling away ". Remember fellowshipping is rejoicing in the Lord together and not arguing about doctrines. Granted, probably not everyone has the gift to do this in a way so as not to upset the other person , but you can place your trust in the Spirit to lead you at the right time with the right words. I cannot accept being a believing "dummy".

You will notice I am not quoting a lot of Scripture -- the reason being that I accept members of this forum to know enough of Scripture to understand the simple things I am writing about.

God bless

Wim

[Dave in Tenn]

Beyond the propensity we might on occasion have to toss scripture around like we all know what we're talking about. I'm not sure what else troubles you.  There's likely not a one of us who doesn't have close friends or family who either don't believe as "we" do, or are possibly even hostile to it.  I know I do.  My goodness, I even took one out to lunch yesterday--paid and everything.  We had a nice dinner and a nice time, but the 'topic' is closed.  Why?  Because she hasn't 'fallen away' yet.

It's well true that believing in the salvation of all doesn't "save" us.  I've seen a lot of folks come through 'here' with little more than an interest in ticking a doctrinal box.  We are saved by grace--through faith.  Here's the Elect (those to whom He gives power to become the sons of God):  "Even to those that believe on His name."  And again, those to whom He gives Eonian Life:  Whosoever believes in/on Him.  What "Belief" (the same word as "faith") does a person have who denies (or simply doesn't see) that the Father sent the Son to actually BE the savior of the world, and that He will accomplish it. 

Maybe I'm wrong, and the preachers are right...but to 'take the name of the Lord in vain' isn't (only) a matter of language, but of the heart.  The name of the LORD means "God is Salvation".  Is it possible that there are those who take His name with all due solemnity, yet "TAKE IT IN VAIN."?

If some set to judge the world have not yet learned to judge in lesser matters, how much more are those set to judge the world not 'ready' if, to them, judgement means eternal hell-fire, or separation, or annihilation, or some other "judgement" which does not include SALVATION.

Just me talking, but IF there is no "salvation of all" then there is no "salvation of Dave", despite all my upbringing which told me I could be saved while others were lost.  Come to find out, it actually IS as Scripture says.  He came to save those that are LOST.  He leaves the 90 and 9 and goes after the one.  Is it possible that at least some of those who are LOST and STRAYED from the 90 and 9 (HIS FLOCK) are those who cannot any longer believe that God Almighty of Love doesn't save all?  Your house FALLS, and GREAT is the fall of it.  You give up a LOT when you come to that conclusion, and group-singing, and hand waving won't make up for it.

Paul wrote that Jesus is the savior of all men--ESPECIALLY those who believe.  Now, maybe I'm wrong and the preachers are right, but 1.  That "especially" DOESN'T mean "exclusively",  and 2.  that "believe" refers to the primary statement that Jesus is the Savior of ALL men, and not to some hard to pin-down, generalized "belief" that kinda keeps step with Christianity or at least your flavor of choice. 

There are those who have a "Form of Godliness" yet deny the power.  Could it be that those who deny the Salvation of all DENY THE POWER, despite having a form of godliness?  Do you think we could have deep and fruitful fellowship?--the HIGHEST of FELLOWSHIP?  Maybe, if we're just ticking the box.  Otherwise, not so much.

"The CALLED and those chosen OUT OF THE CALLED" is everywhere in Scripture, when you see it.  The whole world isn't CALLED/INVITED.  They are the recipients of righteous judgement when the time comes.  It will come to them before it comes to many of those "who have done marvelous works in His name" or "said unto Him Lord, Lord!".

No, a doctrinal position doesn't "save", but the faith to believe "given by God and not of ourselves" is the conduit for Grace.  I can't think of a more vital place to "begin" than the simple faith that Jesus Saves All.  That's radical.  He will complete in all of us what He has begun. 

 

[lilitalienboi16]

Been reading all the contributions to this subject maybe three or four times because things bothering me , not only on this subject , but I feel this is a bit of a general problem and that is I feel that we do quote individual versus just a little to easy and also out of context. I know what Ray had to say about context ,context ,context and I agree with him however don't throw context completely away ,in fact Ray used context to prove that Satan is not the subject of Isaiah 14:12 as the whole chapter is about the king of Babylon. The same for Ez 28 .

An example is in this case is Mike (it could have been me )who quotes 1Cor 5:1-13 but in a haphazard way -so that I have to ask what is he trying to say? This part of Scripture has nothing to do with fellowshipping ,it has to do with judging.Paul tells the Corinthians that they (the assembly ) must judge within (the assembly) and if one is found to be a fornicator he must be banned from the assembly.God will judge those without (the assembly )-Vs 5 "to deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus".And vs 13 says it all , some judgement is the responsibility of the assembly and some is God's responsibility. "But them that are without (the assembly) God judgeth. Therefore put away from yourselves that wicked person " The words in brackets are mine to make reading easy.

Jeff says he hasn't got anybody to fellowship with- no man, you must be keeping the wrong company. Being a believer in universal salvation does not save you. Being a true believer in Jesus Christ as your saviour through the  mercy of the Father and the working of the Holy Spirit in you makes you a believer and overcomer and then you are an elect as your tongue and your works will witness of this.There are certainly true believers in a lot of institutions that have not heard about universal salvation and howcome are you unable to fellowship with those? Sometime or other in the process of fellowshipping the subject of universal salvation will come up and you will find an eager ear (not always) and it helps if you come across people who have experienced a "falling away ". Remember fellowshipping is rejoicing in the Lord together and not arguing about doctrines. Granted, probably not everyone has the gift to do this in a way so as not to upset the other person , but you can place your trust in the Spirit to lead you at the right time with the right words. I cannot accept being a believing "dummy".

You will notice I am not quoting a lot of Scripture -- the reason being that I accept members of this forum to know enough of Scripture to understand the simple things I am writing about.

God bless

Wim

In other words, if you don't agree with me you don't know the scriptures. 

This is a post from Kat and a post I shared which I believe will be beneficial to all regarding this current discussion as it tackles the issue of our assembling together and God's kingdom.

The Kingdom of Heaven
April 4, 2015 at 12:40pm
Here is a brief study from excerpts in articles and emails concerning heaven. http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2772.0.html ---

God lives in a different "realm" from us. If we must use physical analogies, I suppose we could say that we live in the physical subject to death; whereas God lives in the spirit and never dies. We live in a world of wickedness; whereas God lives in a world of righteousness.  We live in darkness;  whereas God lives in light.God's elect are making the transition and transformation from evil to good; from physical to spiritual; for darkness to light.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4138.0.html -----

The "Kingdom of God" also known as the "Kingdom of the heavenS," is God's domain, where He resides.  To the degree that we have God's Spirit is the degree to which we reside in this Kingdom. At present we are merely begotten, awaiting a new birth into His Kingdom. This Kingdom has no end after the physical has passed away. Etc.


http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html ------------------------------

SEA, EARTH, AND HEAVEN

There are three realms spoken of in Revelation: sea, earth, and heaven:

"And the angel which I saw stand upon the SEA and upon the EARTH lifted up his hand to HEAVEN, and swore by Him that lives for ever and ever, [for the eons of the eons], who created HEAVEN, and the things that therein are, and the EARTH, and the things that therein are, and the SEA, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer [no longer a time of delay]" (Rev. 10:5-6).

The angels [messengers] of God communicate things from heaven to both the earth and the sea:

"And the voice which I heard from heaven spoke unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the ANGEL which stands upon the sea and upon the earth" (Rev. 10:08).

There are three realms of humanity and three realms of spiritual understanding. The lowest of all is the sea. Those with at least some spiritual understanding are those who dwell in the earth. And those who have the very mind of Christ are those who dwell in heaven. ALL REALMS will give honor and glory to God:

"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, [need I explain that 'fish' do not have the mental capacity to comprehend what is being taught here—these are MEN, MANKIND, HUMANITY] and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and upon the Lamb for the eons of the eons" (Rev. 5:13).

Is this not saying the identical thing that Paul teaches in Phil. 2:10-11:

"That at the name of Jesus every knee should BOW, of things [them] in heaven, and things [them] in earth, and things [them] under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

More proof:

"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and [inhabitants] of the sea! ..." (Rev. 12:12).

Next notice that:

"And when the dragon saw that he was cast into the earth , he persecuted the WOMAN [the Church] which brought forth the man child [the manifest sons of God]" (Rev. 12:13).

Where is the Church? Does she dwell in the spiritual realms of heaven? No. Is she located in the sea? No. She dwells in the earth. She is higher than the sea, but lower than heaven; she dwells in the earth. These are the three realms spoken of in Revelation. If we can't get our thinking above the symbols themselves, we will never ever understand the book of Revelation.

The saints have left the earth in their spiritual walk with God. Those who are now 'spiritually-minded;' dwell in heaven—a much much higher realm than that of the earth.


http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html -------------------------

GOD'S HEAVEN IS HIGHER THAN MAN'S HEAVEN

Satan is the god of this world (I Cor. 4:4). Satan possesses ALL the kingdoms of the world (Matt. 4:8-9). Satan appears to the heads of his nations as an angel of light (I Cor. 11:12). It was Satan who appealed to the heaven of Eve's mind. It was Satan that caused the people to build a tower that would reach MAN'S concept of heaven. The heaven of the minds of those conceiving of such lofty things. It was Satan who caused the king of Babylon to be lifted up in his own heaven, his own mind. Listen to his own words:

"At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon. The king spake, and said, is not this GREAT BABYLON, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of MY power, and for the honour of MY MAJESTY?"vGod has a heaven. It is a SPIRIT REALM. It is where God lives and has His Being. Men too have a heaven. It is likewise, the REALM where they live and have their being—they spiritually live in their own minds, their own heavens.

Notice Prov. 23:7, "For as he THINKS in his heart, SO IS HE." The 'heart' is the innermost seat of our deepest emotions, but it is accessed through the MIND. It is what one thinks that determines what one is. When the king of Babylon THOUGHT that he had ascended into heaven in his mind, then that is where HE WAS, "so IS he." But ... BUT, it was man's heaven and not God's. No 'man,' no 'carnal man' has ever ascended into God's heaven of spirit,

(See also  Matthew 12:34 "O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh." and Luke 6:45 "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh." -- Think of what the king of babylon said out of his mouth and see where his heart was!)

"And NO MAN has ascended up to heaven [God's heaven], but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man WHICH IS IN HEAVEN [right at the very time He was speaking these words]" (John 3:13).

Jesus could live "on earth" and "in heaven" at the same time! But carnal men live in the heaven of their minds all the time. Man's heaven is a place of spiritual delusion; whereas God's heaven is a place of spiritual enlightenment.

"And I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the EARTH [of man] and the HEAVEN [of man] fled away; and there was found NO PLACE FOR THEM... And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a NEW heaven and a NEW earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." (Rev. 20:11, 16 & 21:1).

It would be mind-boggling enough to think that the entire UNIVERSE could "flee away," but it would be quite another to then suggest that, "there was found NO PLACE FOR THEM." That would be absurd if taken literally. ALL THESE THINGS ARE SPIRITUAL! In the white throne judgment there will be no more a place for the flesh, for the carnal mind, for man's heaven. There will truly be no place found for them. They will be annihilated in God's "CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29 & I Cor. 3:15)!

God will give man a new earth and a new heaven, and as for the great sea of carnal, God-defying humanity, "...and there was NO MORE SEA."


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1696.0.html ---

I've come under more frequent spiritual attack. I know within my heart that I must stand strong in the Lord and know that nothing can hurt me unless it is His will. But I am very immature in my spirituality and it's very difficult to deal with these things at times.

Dear Bill:

  "Put on the whole armour of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God...." (Eph. 6:1-17). 

I don't know what else to tell you.  We all do battle against this spiritual realm.


http://bible-truths.com/lake11.html ---------------------------------

In Hebrews 10:25 were are admonished as follows:

"Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as you see the day approaching."

That this is speaking of believers congregating together to worship and study God's Word, there can be no doubt. However, there is a much deeper meaning to this "assembling" that few have ever seen. I never saw it myself until I read a paper by J. Preston Eby, entitled: "FORSAKE NOT THE ASSEMBLING."

I will quote an excerpt or two from his paper:

"The Greek word for 'assembling' is EPISUNAGOGE. The word, literally, is a verb meaning to synagogue. It is a compound of the Greek prefix EPI with the word SUNAGOGE from which we get our transliterated English word Synagogue. EPI means super – imposition – that which is above, higher than, highest, upon. SUNAGOGE means a meeting, assembly, or gathering. Putting these two words together, EPI-SUNAGOGE means THE ABOVE SYNAGOGUE, THE HIGHER MEETING, THE HIGHEST ASSEMBLY, THE HIGHER-THAN-ALL-GATHERINGS!

It bespeaks of something far greater than merely collecting so many breathing bodies together in one place.
It is a meeting in a higher realm, on a higher plane, in the high places of the Spirit, and in the heights of Truth. It is a gathering together in a dimension above. It indicates an assembling IN THE SPIRIT..."

(All Caps belong to Mr. Eby).

This Greek word episunagoge is used only one other time in Scripture, and that is in II Thes. 2:1:

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together [Gk: episunagoge] unto Him."

In Hebrews 10 we are admonished to "assemble" in an high meeting, a meeting in the SPIRIT! In II Thes. 2 this meeting in the Spirit will become a literal meeting with our Lord.

And so, back to our question once more: Which denomination should we join? Where should we go to Church? Where should we "forsake not the assembling of ourselves together?" In a physical building of some physical denomination? No. WE are to episunagoge (assemble) on a higher plane, in a higher realm, in a spiritual assembly, IN THE SPIRIT!

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So how do we relate to 'heaven' now in our lives... as Ray shows in Scripture Prov. 23:7, "For as he THINKS in his heart, SO IS HE." It is what one thinks that determines what one is. We need to seek that high realm as much as possible... I believe study (private and with others), meditate and pray is how we do that.

John 14:2  In My Father's house (3614) are many mansions (3438); if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

G3614 house - properly residence (abstractly), but usually (concretely) an abode (literally or figuratively); by implication a family (especially domestics): - home, house (-hold).

G3438 mansions - a staying, that is, residence (the act or the place): - abode, mansion.

John 14:23  Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home (3438) with him.

2Cor 5:1  For we know that if our earthly house (3614) of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house (3614) not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. v. 2  For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house (3613) which is from heaven: v. 3  If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

G3613 house - a residence (literally or figuratively): - habitation, house.

What I'm trying to show is all these words in the Scripture "house," "home," "mansions" all mean the same thing, it's talking about our body that holds the spirit of life. You can see in 2 Cor. Paul calls our physical body an "earthly house."

Now God's house/abode is the Kingdom of God/Heaven - the spiritual realm. In John 14:23 Jesus said He and the Father would "make Our home with him," this is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that a chosen few receive in this lifetime... heaven comes to those few now.

Luke 17:20  Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; v. 21  nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."

John 6:56  He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

So in John 14:2 when Jesus said "I go to prepare a place for you," isn't that actually when the Holy Spirit/Christ comes to dwell in and begin preparing the Elect, getting those few ready for the first resurrection? I certainly think so.

John 14:26  But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

John 14:3  And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

mercy, peace and loveKat

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Yea this stuff was always such a spiritual treasure chest. Loved it, thanks for putting it all together kat!

Let me add this verse that came to mind which makes me think of what Christ said about us being with Him:

Ephesians 2:5-7 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."

Yes, He is indeed preparing a place for us. Now in part but soon in full!

1 John 2:28 "And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming."

1 John 3:2-3 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."

1 Corinthians 13:12 "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

As ray said; "To the degree that we have God's Spirit is the degree to which we reside in this Kingdom. At present we are merely begotten, awaiting a new birth into His Kingdom."

I think he absolutely nailed it!

God bless,
Alex

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I remembered this conference about 'What Is The Gospel Of The Kingdom?'... when I was searching for this topic goggle advanced search usually does not pick up the transcripts. This article is so full of good stuff, but here is a few excerpts from it.


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.0.html ----------

WHAT IS THE KINGDOM LIKE ?

But I want to clear up this thing with the kingdom of God is 'like.'It's like a king...it's like a laborer... it's like a treasure... it's like leaven... it's like a fishnet cast into the sea.  What is all that? What are all those parables saying the kingdom of God is? What is all of this it's like, it's like, it's like, etc.? It's like there are many called, but few chosen! That is what every parable is. That's what the parables are or some form of that. Who would have ever thought.

You have the mustard seed? It's something that is very small and grows into something very strong. 

1Cor. 1:26  For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

The nobodies - the nothings - the mustard seeds. That's what God calls us. But they grow. 

Christ is the King who is gone into a far nation. To do what? What does the parable say, what is He going to get there? A kingdom! 

Where is Christ now? He is in heaven. But what is He doing on the earth? He's getting Himself a kingdom. It started with the Apostles - the few. He said to 'you' it's given to understand, you are the few. But to 'them' - the many, it is not given, but to the few. Many called - a lot of seeds scattered around, but only some seeds fall on the good ground, the few. 

If you cast the net into the sea and you pull in all these fish. But you throw a lot of them away, because only a few are the good ones that you save. That's what the parable are all about... all of them. God choosing out the few for His kingdom. The kingdom of God is like this, it's like that, it's like, it's like... it's like US and what God is doing through us.

Rev 5:10  And You made US kings and priests to our God, and WE will reign over the earth.

WE are the kingdom! You are going to have to do a little rethinking in your minds here maybe. We are the kingdom.

Rev 2:26  And he who overcomes (that's us) and keeps My works (that should be us)  to the end, to him (that's us) I will give power over the nations.v

Mark 1:15  and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe the gospel."

Mark says the kingdom of God is at hand, now that should tell us something. The kingdom of God was at hand. Well then His Apostles went out after Christ's crucifixion and resurrection and they taught the kingdom of God is at hand. Then the second generation of church leaders taught the kingdom of God is at hand. Here I am are sitting before you today and I am telling you the kingdom of God is at hand. How is it at hand? It is at hand for you!

"Repent, and believe the gospel." It's at hand for YOU! It's at your hand right now, for you! It wasn't at your hand before you were born. If some of you die this week or next month or next year or whatever, it won't be at hand for you then. The kingdom of God is at hand NOW. When you hear this message, that's when it is at hand for you. This is God telling you, repent the kingdom of God is at hand, right now, while you are sitting there, right now it's at hand. 

How is it at hand? Because Jesus Christ is, was and He will be!  It is at hand for us now.  It was at hand for them when it was preached back then.  It will be at hand if there is generations beyond us, before our Lord returns. v

Rom 8:19  For the earnest expectation of the creation waits...

This whole world, this whole creation is groaning and travailing in pain. Is waiting for what?

Rom 8:19 ...for the manifestation of the sons of God.

That's us, the sons of God or the kingdom of God. They are the heavens in which the Spirit of God dwells and will rule the nations.

Obadiah 1:21  And saviors shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mountain of Esau (this is them); and the kingdom shall be the Lord's.

The "saviors" are going to rule from mount Zion, not over there in that ugly swill of a city called Jerusalem. But from spiritual mount Zion. He is going to rule them, "Esau" is them, "and the kingdom shall be the Lord's." What kingdom? The kingdom of what, in this context? Kingdom of saviors, plural saviors. Who are these saviors? That's us, we're saviors. Well this sounds a little odd, I mean we're saying we're going to be the saviors of the world. Well we do have a leader though, King of kings, Lord of lords, Savior of saviors and Son of sons. We're sons right, He's the Son of the sons. He will always have a name superior to every other one.v

Gal 6:16  And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them and upon the Israel of God.

1Peter 2:9  ...so that you might speak of the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

So the kingdom of God is what? The Israel of God! It's those who through the faith of Abraham... that is the same faith that God gave to Abraham He gives to us, that's the faith of Abraham. We become this peculiar, special people to God. 

Now get this. Here's what He said we are. He said I will have a nation and I will have a people and it didn't happen... but it was a type, a shadow of something that will happen. 

The writer of Hebrews tells us that there is an "Israel of God," those who are baptized in the Spirit, circumcised in the Spirit and they are now spiritual Israel - Jews. They are the real Jews, the ones that are converted in heart and mind and spirit. Then Peter comes right out and says, you are that royal family, that special people, that kingdom of priests, that holy nation, that's what you are. 

So what is it? It's the gospel of the kingdom. What is the kingdom? YOU - WE are the kingdom! How about that. We are the kingdom. It's the gospel, the good news of the kingdom. When you are spiritually converted and you are holy and you are circumcised in spirit and mind and soul and heart you are a spiritual Jew. You are the one that He said back there, I'm going to make you a holy nation, Israel... but not that Israel, that was a type. That was a shadow, that was only going to be a nation of people living in a certain land. 

This kingdom is going to what? Bless all the nations. This is a big kingdom and it's a spiritual kingdom, because the more we do away with the flesh, the more spiritual we get. The more we die to the flesh, the more we grow to the spirit. 

So it's not as negative as it seems when you get old and decrepit like me. The flesh is dying, but hopefully the spirit is growing. Where as I use to be dead in my spirit and soar in my flesh, now I'm almost dead in my flesh and soaring in my spirit. That's good, that's the way it should be. Do you see that in your life? You should see the flesh dying. v

So what is the kingdom? We are the kingdom of God... we are the kingdom of the heavens. Where does God reside? In heaven. God resides in heaven, but it is not called the kingdom of heaven in the Greek, you can check Rotherham and all those, it's kingdom of the heavens, plural. We are the temple of God... God resides in His temple... God resides in heaven. We are the heaven in which God resides, where He dwells. But don't get to haughty, because the Scriptures say, not even all the heaven of the heavens can contain Him.

2Chron 6:18  ...Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You.  How much less this temple which I have built!

But never the less it is true, He does dwell in the heavens. But they can't even contain Him, He's bigger than that. But He does dwell in His heavens, we are His heavens, we are His spiritual kingdom. But it does not yet appear what we shall be, we only have the earnest, down payment of His spirit.

Eph 1:14  which is an earnest of our inheritance, unto the redemption of God's own possession, unto the praise of His glory.

We have the down payment, but John says we will eventually see Him as He is, because we will be like Him. We will be like Jesus Christ!

1John 3:2  Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

So we are the kingdom of God. Christ is going to return with a kingdom... what does He return with?  What is the symbolism of how Christ returns? He returns on... what is He riding? A white horse. Is anybody with Him? An army! Are they walking? They are riding on white horses too!

Rev 19:14  And the armies in Heaven followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

What is that army? The kingdom of God... IT'S US! We are coming with Him, He is going to gather US up. Gather up what? His army, His kingdom!  v

Psalms 119:165  Great peace have they who love Your law (and we know that God's Law is spiritual), and nothing (not anything) shall offend them.

If you are living by God's Law, you can't be offended. You will only pity the poor slob who tries to put you down. If you are not offended, truly not offended, you will be a king who will bring judgment to that person one day. Then they will learn to be humble like you. 

So God has great things in store for the few, the called, the chosen, the humble. The ones that are like little children, just wanting to do the will of their Father. 

Kings - lords - priests - a royal nation - a peculiar people - a special people to God. It's all at hand, that how close it is, it's at hand.

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mercy, peace and love
Kat

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John 4:23-24
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

2 Corinthians 6:13-17
13 Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged.
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

God bless,
Alex

[Extol]

Maybe I'm wrong, and the preachers are right...but to 'take the name of the Lord in vain' isn't (only) a matter of language, but of the heart.  The name of the LORD means "God is Salvation".  Is it possible that there are those who take His name with all due solemnity, yet "TAKE IT IN VAIN."?

This is something I've come to believe since reading Ray's material, and something I was going to bring up in the other thread, where willemv told the story about guys in the bar liberally using the Lord's name in vain.

As Ray pointed out, "God" is a title, used for many false gods as well as the God of the Bible. It is not the name of the Father. I don't think saying "Oh my God" is using the Lord's name in vain, as I was taught as a youngster.

Here are some definitions of "in vain" from various dictionaries I checked:

-without success or a result

-not yielding the desired outcome

-to no avail; fruitlessly

Based on these definitions, I think you are exactly right, Dave. Much more than any verbal expression, I think this is what taking His name in vain is:praising the name of Jesus--Jehovah is salvation--with your lips, while believing in your heart He will not succeed in saving the world

[willemv]

I fully agree with you there ,Extol , I have heard hundreds of times people in public prayer saying "Father " in just about every sentence which is using that title in vain and even in "church" it is regarded as wrong. As far as in public is concerned it is usually the name of our Lord Jesus Christ which is used by mostly total unbelievers and ,so I then ask such people whether they are believers or not and correct them in a friendly manner.When people say " oh, my god " it does not particularly worry me as I don't know who is his god , it could be money , sport or anything of carnal value.
God bless, Wim

[HoneyLamb56]

If one doesn't "assemble" in a church building with others in that church,  how does one's spouse/family member etc. hear the word of God (even if not the truth)?  If faith comes by hearing, how does one hear if they do not go to a physical church, listen to televangelists, etc. and where bible discussion/study/prayer is not done in or out of the home?

[Dave in Tenn]

If one doesn't "assemble" in a church building with others in that church,  how does one's spouse/family member etc. hear the word of God (even if not the truth)?  If faith comes by hearing, how does one hear if they do not go to a physical church, listen to televangelists, etc. and where bible discussion/study/prayer is not done in or out of the home?

If you remove all of those from the equation and add "the internet", maybe they don't 'hear'.  Why bible discussion/study/prayer is not done in the home is a worrisome question.  It's easy for me to answer in my household, but I'm not in others' households where it might be harder.

Mat 13:24  Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25  But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26  But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27  So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28  He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29  But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Historically and personally (for you, if you are wheat), when did the Man sow good seed in the field?  When did the enemy sow tares among the wheat?  Lastly, when is the harvest?  For some of us, it is already underway to be completed at His coming.

Notice too that the Man's concern wasn't for the tares.  That's why He told the servants to let them both grow up together.  It was for the sake of the wheat that He told them not to remove the tares until the harvest.  Does this mean churches shouldn't fire and prosecute child-abusing youth ministers/priests, pastors, volunteer lay people?  Aren't they tares obvious even to the "workers"?  Surely that's not what this means.  Judgement is on the House of God even now.  Should Ray have kept silent about the false doctrine, worthless practices, and fear-and-money grubbing attitudes of the leaders?  Again, no.

"Let them grow up together."  "Until the Harvest".  The Harvest is underway, and has been for a long time, now.  The field is His, and everything that grows in it.  But a man grows WHEAT in a wheat field.         

Of course, this isn't the only parable concerning the Kingdom of the Heavens.  It's not even the end for the "wheat".

[lilitalienboi16]

If one doesn't "assemble" in a church building with others in that church,  how does one's spouse/family member etc. hear the word of God (even if not the truth)?  If faith comes by hearing, how does one hear if they do not go to a physical church, listen to televangelists, etc. and where bible discussion/study/prayer is not done in or out of the home?

Be STILL and know that I am God. I WILL be exalted in all the earth.

Who can be saved? With men, this is impossible, but with God ALL THINGS are possible.

Just relax and don't worry, all is going exactly as planned. All those who belong to God cannot be lost and we know that God will be all in all.

Therefor, 'Wait for me,' says the Lord.

God bless,
Alex