I feel horrible

[cheekie3]

Kat -

Thank you so much.

Absolutely Wonderful and Brilliant.

I love these Scriptures you provide below:

Hi George, you make a valid point about that those might not be actually speaking of the elect, and that Scripture is very clear in all translations as to what it says "the wicked one does not touch him."

1John 5:18  We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born (begotten) of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

So if this is an absolute truth there has to be a second witness in Scripture to it, I have been searching and I think I finally found it.

2Thess 3:3  But the Lord is faithful, who will establish you and guard you from the evil one.

And here are a couple more that indicate the same thing.

John 17:15  I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.

Psa 97:10  You who love the LORD, hate evil! He preserves the souls of His saints; He delivers them out of the hand of the wicked.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

He sure is Awesome.

You Serve Him Very well Kat.

Kind Regards.

George

[Dave in Tenn]

I don't think there is a one of 'us' that has been begotten of God, yet.  There is only One begotten of God, to be first among many brethren...but not yet.

[Kat]

Dave, I think you must mean we are not 'born' yet?

1John 5:18 We are aware that everyone who has been begotten of God is not sinning, but he who is begotten of God is keeping himself, and the wicked one is not touching him." (CLV)

Concern Christ as the "only begotten Son," was true that when God sent Him into the world as flesh and blood to die He was His only begotten at that time.

1John 4:9  In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him.

Here are a couple of emails to give us all a refresher on this.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1859.0.html --------------

When it says "spiritual" it does not mean "physical."

Now this I say, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD [that's natural; that's physical] CANNOT inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption.

Whereas John 3:3 in the King James says "born again," it would better translated "begotten anew from above."

John 3:3  Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
 
In the Greek there is but one word for both "begotten and born."  Only the context can separate the proper use. At present the Elect Saints of  God have only the "earnest" of our full spiritual birth into His Kingdom:  "...ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of PROMISE [a promise of a future fulfilment] Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory"  (Eph. 1:13-14).


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4452.msg34236.html#msg34236 -----

Hey Ray,
I am listening to your sermons on the Origins of Jesus as I write. But something caught my ear that I hope you can clear up. You stated something along the lines that we will not be adopted into the family of God as the Angels were, but that we will be begotten and that that is a far more intimate relationship with God. Can you then please explain the following scriptures?

Romans 8:15 "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."

Romans 8:23  "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."

Galatians 4:5 "To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons."

Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"

Strong's dictionary does not give any alternate definitions for the Greek. I of course am not refuting your statements but maybe I misunderstand you. My understanding is that to be "begotten" is quite different from being "adopted." Thanks for your time.Roy


        Dear Roy:  Yes, Strong's does give an alternate to "adoption" for the word "unibotheia," and in fact the "alternate" is his FIRST definition is "the PLACING OF A SON...SONSHIP." 

         Webster's New Twenteth Century Dictionary Unabridged:"sonship"--"the STATE OF BEING A SON"

        Romans 8:15....

        "But you have received a spirit of SONSHIP"  (Rotherham's Emphasized Bible)

         "...but a Spirit which makes us SONS"  (The New English Bible)

         "...you have received the Spirit of SONSHIP"  (Moffatt Translation)

         "...you received the Spirit of SONSHIP" (New International Version)

         "...but you received a Spirit of SONSHIP" (Emphatic Diaglott).

         "...but you got the spirit of SONSHIP" (Concordant Literal New Testament) Etc.

         We are not merely adopted into the Family of God, but rather God has "BEGOTTEN us" [Gk: 'beget, be born--regenerate']" (I Pet. 1:3). And:  "Being BORN AGAIN [same Greek word], not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God..."  (Verse 23).

         No, our final destination is to be BORN into the Kingdom of God, not just an "adoption." Some bibles do not ever use the word "adoption."  Even if we were to accept these Scriptures as "adoption," we still have the added knowledge that we are to be BORN into the Kingdom of God.

         We are all "called," but is that our final destiny?  No, there is also (in addition to the called) those called ones who are CHOSEN, and even among the chosen, there must be the FAITHFUL (Rev.17:14).  Judas was called and chosen, but he was NOT FAITHFUL UNTIL THE END!!

        Hope this helps your understanding.

        God be with you,

        Ray

[Dave in Tenn]

1Jn 5:18  We have known that every one who hath been begotten of God doth not sin, but he who was begotten of God doth keep himself, and the evil one doth not touch him;
1Jn 5:19  we have known that of God we are, and the whole world in the evil doth lie; YLT

Yes, I certainly mean that we are not "born yet".  I'd like to be able to find the places where Ray taught on the differences of meaning from the Greek word most often translated as begotten.  From my brief study, this not only includes "conception" and "birth" but "engendering" (of a thing or an idea), which makes it less "literal".

But I'm stuck with:

1Jn 1:8  If we should be saying that we have no sin we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
1Jn 1:9  If we should be avowing our sins, He is faithful and just that He may be pardoning us our sins and should be cleansing us from all injustice."
1Jn 1:10  If we should be saying that we have not sinned, we are making Him a liar, and His word is not in us."

Both of those passages are true, if properly understood and reconciled.  From my experience, I relate MUCH MORE to 1John 1:8-10 than to 1John 5:18.  It's possible:

1.   that ...every one who hath been begotten of God doth not sin...isn't talking about us--at least not yet.

or

2.  that ...every one who hath been begotten of God doth not sin...isn't talking about generic totality of "sin" but a more specific sin or set of sins.

or

3.  Both, and/or something else altogether.

These statements appear in the same letter.  Seems likely to me there is something in the intervening "verses" that bring the two together.

[Kat]

Dave here are some Scripture for you to consider.

Rom 5:19  For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous [G1342 - equitable (in character or act); by implication innocent, holy (absolutely or relatively): - just, meet, right (-eous)].
Rom 5:20  Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,
Rom 5:21  so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

1John 3:6  Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
v. 7  Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

1John 2:28  And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.
v. 29  If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born (begotten) of Him.

Col 3:2  Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.
v. 3  For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
v. 4  When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

Rom 6:6  knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
v.7  For he who has died ("baptized into His death" Rom 6:3) has been freed from sin.

Rom 6:11  Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 7:4  Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

Rom 7:6  But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Col 1:21  And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
v. 22  in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight—

1Peter 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
v. 4  to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
v. 5  who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[pg-91]

Dear George,

May I suggest that you make a one to one declaration to Our Heavenly Father, using your own words from your heart and mind, based on something like the following:

'Farther, in Jesus' Name, I am deeply troubled about the thoughts that keep coming into my mind. I know that you have confirmed in your word that "Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every THOUGHT to the obedience of Christ" (2 Corinthians 10:5)." - and I am struggling how I may best do this for me. I know that imagination is not real, but I have a problem distancing myself from these thoughts that come into my mind. I most certainly do not want to entertain these thoughts. Please confirm what I must and need to do. Is it just a question of speaking to these thoughts and telling them that they are not my thoughts and to depart from me? And do I need to keep doing this until such time, as they can no longer enter into my mind? Thank you for giving me Life and this Renewed Life in Your Holy Spirit, and please always keep me in your Rest (which includes Your Love, Peace and Joy of Heart). Your Obedient Servant and Adopted Son pg-91.'

Please pray about this, and if you are burdened by His Holy Spirit within you, The Spirit will give you the words you need to become free of this particular issue in your life.

Remember, If He has Set you Free you are Free indeed.

Thank you for your helpful thoughts and prayer!

Dear Kat,

Thank you for your very detailed answers and providing a lot of Scriptures to meditate on.

1John 3:6  Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
v. 7  Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

I have some difficulty to understand this. Should I link these verses to:

Rom 7:14-25

14 For we are aware that the law is spiritual, yet I am fleshly, having been disposed of under Sin.
15 For what I am effecting I know not, for not what I will, this I am putting into practice, but what I am hating, this I am doing.
16 Now if what I am not willing, this I am doing, I am conceding that the law is ideal.
17 Yet now it is no longer I who am effecting it, but Sin making its home in me.
18 For I am aware that good is not making its home in me (that is, in my flesh), for to will is lying beside me, yet to be effecting the ideal is not.
19 For it is not the good that I will that I am doing, but the evil that I am not willing, this I am putting into practice.
20 Now if what I am not willing, this I am doing, it is no longer I who am effecting it, but Sin which is making its home in me.
21 Consequently, I am finding the law that, at my willing to be doing the ideal, the evil is lying beside me.
22 For I am gratified with the law of God as to the man within,
23 yet I am observing a different law in my members, warring with the law of my mind, and leading me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 A wretched man am I! What will rescue me out of this body of death? Grace!
25 I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law.

or: I sin and fail because I "literally"  neither seen or known Him?

George

[Kat]

1John 3:6  Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
v. 7  Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous

That underlined is the key to understanding this thing of not sinning. It's certainly not the case that we literally will not sin, as it says in John "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1John 1:08). No we do sin as long as we are in the flesh, but if Christ's Spirit dwells in you and therefore you are in Him as well, then it is by His grace that we are redeemed by His sacrifice and our sins are covered and not counted against us.

Rom 3:19  Now we know that whatever the Law says applies to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
v. 20  Therefore, God will not justify any human being by means of the actions prescribed by the Law, for through the Law comes the full knowledge of sin.
v. 21  But now, apart from the Law, God's righteousness is revealed and is attested by the Law and the Prophets—
v. 22  God's righteousness through the faithfulness of Jesus the Messiah—for all who believe (this faith God gives us, verse below). For there is no distinction among people,
v. 23  since all have sinned and continue to fall short of God's glory.
v. 24  By His grace they are justified freely through the redemption that is in the Messiah Jesus, (ISV)

Eph 2:8  For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Rom 4:7  "How blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven and whose sins are covered!
v. 8  How blessed is the person whose sins the Lord will never charge against him!"

2Cor 5:17  Therefore, if anyone is in the Messiah, he is a new creation. Old things have disappeared, and—look!—all things have become new!
v. 18  All of this comes from God, who has reconciled us to Himself through the Messiah and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
v. 19  for through the Messiah, God was reconciling the world (just the few chosen at this time) to Himself by not counting their sins against them. He has committed His message of reconciliation to us. (ISV)

Isa 44:22  I've wiped away your transgressions like a cloud and your sins like mist. Return to me; because I've redeemed you.

Acts 3:19  Therefore, repent and turn to Him to have your sins blotted out,

All of this is only if Christ is indwell and by His blood being applied to us are we set free from 'all' our sin (Rom 6:7, 18, 22).

1John 1:7  But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Rom 5:9  Now that we have been justified by His blood, how much more will we be saved from wrath through Him!

Rev 1:5  and from Jesus the Messiah, the witness, the faithful one, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To the One who loves us and has freed us from our sins by His blood
v. 6  and has made us a kingdom, priests for His God and Father, be glory and power forever and ever! Amen.

mercy, peace and love
Kat