MY NIECES WEDDING!?

[Dennis Vogel]

Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

It's one thing to be tempted and quite another to plan ahead with foresight to enable something God is against.

[octoberose]

I"m just perplexed.
This is your quote from Ray:
QUOTE: "The purpose of this paper is not to single out or come down upon homosexuals. I have never written a paper entitled: "Is Stealing a Sin for New Testament Believers?" or, "Is Bearing False Witness a Sin?" or, "Is Murder a Sin?" So why "homosexuality? Because more and more, the media, entertainment, the government, the Church, the general population of America and much of the world, no longer believes it is a sin to be discriminated against, whereas even the basest of nations have laws against stealing, false witness, and murder."

Did you read it? Ray's condemning this sin being normalized. 

And I just don't understand bringing up Jesus at the wedding. His first miracle may have saved face for this couple and their family but glossing over sinful acts is not what Jesus was about. I'm sure there's a lot of symbolism there since he later refers to his blood as wine.   Didn't he ask  Who is  my mother? Who is the brother?  He who does the Will of my father in heaven.

Yes, Jesus shows compassion to sinners. For one thing he didn't stone them when he could have by law. You've gone from not putting them to death to celebrating them. Big difference.

I do want to say though that when I said, "I wish I could tell those who have same sex attraction that I am no better then you and have compassion on you"... I was saying I wish I could tell you in person or make you understand but I can't.  I Wasn't saying that I wish I could have compassion on you but I don't.   Since this all is in writing and writing is sometimes misinterpreted it occurred to me that I wanted to make that very clear.

Romans 6 "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means!... v13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your member to God as instruments for righteousness."   In fact all of Romans 6 is instructive for this.

 

[Extol]

And I just don't understand bringing up Jesus at the wedding. His first miracle may have saved face for this couple and their family but glossing over sinful acts is not what Jesus was about. I'm sure there's a lot of symbolism there since he later refers to his blood as wine.   Didn't he ask  Who is  my mother? Who is the brother?  He who does the Will of my father in heaven.

This is a good point too. Implying that Jesus was somehow condoning drunkenness is like saying Luke 22:38 condones killing our enemies.

[acomplishedartis]

Well, since I have already read the whole thread. I will say something.

Maybe, if you want peace with your niece, think on something more important that you could do on that day, something that for your niece could justify--you not attending to the wedding...
I do think that preaching to her would be useless, specially if she is not even interested.
Just an idea...

Another idea, is that maybe you should try to worry not so much about a wedding thing. Honestly, from a world wide perspective of things it's kind of a luxury to afford it.

Also I want to thank all responses as they have gave me insights in other matters besides weddings.

[lareli]

I'd go. Doesn't mean you're sanctioning the lifestyle. Doesn't mean you approve. Just means you love your niece. No one needs your approval anyway. They're getting married regardless.

I'd go to a 4th of July BBQ. Doesn't mean I approve of war or people killing and being killed. Doesn't mean I 'support the troops'. It might 'look' like I do but what do I care what it 'looks' like to others.

I stand when the National Anthem is played at my kids pee-wee football games. Doesn't mean I support the religion of nationalism. I'm sure it 'looks' like I do but what do I care what the crowd thinks.

Like Paul said.. 'I know you're going to judge me but it means very little to me to be judged by you, or any man for that matter... I don't even judge myself. I have one judge.' (Paraphrased)

[Extol]

I'd go. Doesn't mean you're sanctioning the lifestyle. Doesn't mean you approve. Just means you love your niece. No one needs your approval anyway. They're getting married regardless.

I'd go to a 4th of July BBQ. Doesn't mean I approve of war or people killing and being killed. Doesn't mean I 'support the troops'. It might 'look' like I do but what do I care what it 'looks' like to others.

I stand when the National Anthem is played at my kids pee-wee football games. Doesn't mean I support the religion of nationalism. I'm sure it 'looks' like I do but what do I care what the crowd thinks.

Like Paul said.. 'I know you're going to judge me but it means very little to me to be judged by you, or any man for that matter... I don't even judge myself. I have one judge.' (Paraphrased)

This is a bad analogy. Regardless of the past and present sins of the USA, you are not attending events that celebrate her sins. You are attending events to eat, spend time with family, and watch football. Eating ribs and watching pee wee football are not vile affections (Rom. 1:26).

[lareli]

I'd go. Doesn't mean you're sanctioning the lifestyle. Doesn't mean you approve. Just means you love your niece. No one needs your approval anyway. They're getting married regardless.

I'd go to a 4th of July BBQ. Doesn't mean I approve of war or people killing and being killed. Doesn't mean I 'support the troops'. It might 'look' like I do but what do I care what it 'looks' like to others.

I stand when the National Anthem is played at my kids pee-wee football games. Doesn't mean I support the religion of nationalism. I'm sure it 'looks' like I do but what do I care what the crowd thinks.

Like Paul said.. 'I know you're going to judge me but it means very little to me to be judged by you, or any man for that matter... I don't even judge myself. I have one judge.' (Paraphrased)

This is a bad analogy. Regardless of the past and present sins of the USA, you are not attending events that celebrate her sins. You are attending events to eat, spend time with family, and watch football. Eating ribs and watching pee wee football are not vile affections (Rom. 1:26).

Really? Veterans Day, 4th of July, Memorial Day.... Are you saying these are not days set aside for the honoring and celebration of those who have fought, killed and/or have been killed in war?

[Extol]

I'd go. Doesn't mean you're sanctioning the lifestyle. Doesn't mean you approve. Just means you love your niece. No one needs your approval anyway. They're getting married regardless.

I'd go to a 4th of July BBQ. Doesn't mean I approve of war or people killing and being killed. Doesn't mean I 'support the troops'. It might 'look' like I do but what do I care what it 'looks' like to others.

I stand when the National Anthem is played at my kids pee-wee football games. Doesn't mean I support the religion of nationalism. I'm sure it 'looks' like I do but what do I care what the crowd thinks.

Like Paul said.. 'I know you're going to judge me but it means very little to me to be judged by you, or any man for that matter... I don't even judge myself. I have one judge.' (Paraphrased)

This is a bad analogy. Regardless of the past and present sins of the USA, you are not attending events that celebrate her sins. You are attending events to eat, spend time with family, and watch football. Eating ribs and watching pee wee football are not vile affections (Rom. 1:26).

Really? Veterans Day, 4th of July, Memorial Day.... Are you saying these are not days set aside for the honoring and celebration of those who have fought, killed and/or have been killed in war?

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that honoring and celebrating warriors is not the reason you're going to those events--even if they happen to fall on those days. That's why I highlighted in bold the activities you were participating in: 4th of July BBQ. Pee wee football. That's what you are doing there. You're not praising the fallen dead. There's nothing sinful about eating at a family picnic, even if the reason everyone has off work is because it's a day to honor veterans or promote nationalism.

[lilitalienboi16]

I'd go. Doesn't mean you're sanctioning the lifestyle. Doesn't mean you approve. Just means you love your niece. No one needs your approval anyway. They're getting married regardless.

I'd go to a 4th of July BBQ. Doesn't mean I approve of war or people killing and being killed. Doesn't mean I 'support the troops'. It might 'look' like I do but what do I care what it 'looks' like to others.

I stand when the National Anthem is played at my kids pee-wee football games. Doesn't mean I support the religion of nationalism. I'm sure it 'looks' like I do but what do I care what the crowd thinks.

Like Paul said.. 'I know you're going to judge me but it means very little to me to be judged by you, or any man for that matter... I don't even judge myself. I have one judge.' (Paraphrased)

This is a bad analogy. Regardless of the past and present sins of the USA, you are not attending events that celebrate her sins. You are attending events to eat, spend time with family, and watch football. Eating ribs and watching pee wee football are not vile affections (Rom. 1:26).

Really? Veterans Day, 4th of July, Memorial Day.... Are you saying these are not days set aside for the honoring and celebration of those who have fought, killed and/or have been killed in war?

I do feel you are grasping at straws to justify behavior that is condemned. Eating barbeque on the sand when you have time off from work (national holidays) does not equate to participating in an event where a sin condemned in scripture is being embraced and celebrated. The word of God does not condemn attending the beach on any day or enjoying good food with friends and family. It does however condemn homosexuality, murder, etc...

Sure, There maybe events on national holidays to celebrate the life and accomplishments of military veterans which involves killing and murder  but I personally don't attend those events. If i'm at the beach with my wife and daughter having a good time, enjoying the sun, and eating good food with friends, and it happens to be the 4th of july (or the middle of winter), thats all it is, being at the beach. I'm not celebrating anyones anything or participating in any sinful act.

As Jesse said, the reason for why you are doing something matters and the reason for the event matters. A wedding is the celebration of a union between to people and the festivities of celebration.

[lareli]

I'd go. Doesn't mean you're sanctioning the lifestyle. Doesn't mean you approve. Just means you love your niece. No one needs your approval anyway. They're getting married regardless.

I'd go to a 4th of July BBQ. Doesn't mean I approve of war or people killing and being killed. Doesn't mean I 'support the troops'. It might 'look' like I do but what do I care what it 'looks' like to others.

I stand when the National Anthem is played at my kids pee-wee football games. Doesn't mean I support the religion of nationalism. I'm sure it 'looks' like I do but what do I care what the crowd thinks.

Like Paul said.. 'I know you're going to judge me but it means very little to me to be judged by you, or any man for that matter... I don't even judge myself. I have one judge.' (Paraphrased)

This is a bad analogy. Regardless of the past and present sins of the USA, you are not attending events that celebrate her sins. You are attending events to eat, spend time with family, and watch football. Eating ribs and watching pee wee football are not vile affections (Rom. 1:26).

Really? Veterans Day, 4th of July, Memorial Day.... Are you saying these are not days set aside for the honoring and celebration of those who have fought, killed and/or have been killed in war?

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that honoring and celebrating warriors is not the reason you're going to those events--even if they happen to fall on those days. That's why I highlighted in bold the activities you were participating in: 4th of July BBQ. Pee wee football. That's what you are doing there. You're not praising the fallen dead. There's nothing sinful about eating at a family picnic, even if the reason everyone has off work is because it's a day to honor veterans or promote nationalism.

Gotcha, ok... Sounds like we agree... So I'm confused as to how you think it's a bad analogy. Doesn't your explanation support the analogy?

[lareli]

I'd go. Doesn't mean you're sanctioning the lifestyle. Doesn't mean you approve. Just means you love your niece. No one needs your approval anyway. They're getting married regardless.

I'd go to a 4th of July BBQ. Doesn't mean I approve of war or people killing and being killed. Doesn't mean I 'support the troops'. It might 'look' like I do but what do I care what it 'looks' like to others.

I stand when the National Anthem is played at my kids pee-wee football games. Doesn't mean I support the religion of nationalism. I'm sure it 'looks' like I do but what do I care what the crowd thinks.

Like Paul said.. 'I know you're going to judge me but it means very little to me to be judged by you, or any man for that matter... I don't even judge myself. I have one judge.' (Paraphrased)

This is a bad analogy. Regardless of the past and present sins of the USA, you are not attending events that celebrate her sins. You are attending events to eat, spend time with family, and watch football. Eating ribs and watching pee wee football are not vile affections (Rom. 1:26).

Really? Veterans Day, 4th of July, Memorial Day.... Are you saying these are not days set aside for the honoring and celebration of those who have fought, killed and/or have been killed in war?

I do feel you are grasping at straws to justify behavior that is condemned. Eating barbeque on the sand when you have time off from work (national holidays) does not equate to participating in an event where a sin condemned in scripture is being embraced and celebrated. The word of God does not condemn attending the beach on any day or enjoying good food with friends and family. It does however condemn homosexuality, murder, etc...

Sure, There maybe events on national holidays to celebrate the life and accomplishments of military veterans which involves killing and murder  but I personally don't attend those events. If i'm at the beach with my wife and daughter having a good time, enjoying the sun, and eating good food with friends, and it happens to be the 4th of july (or the middle of winter), thats all it is, being at the beach. I'm not celebrating anyones anything or participating in any sinful act.

You probably don't see nationalism as a religion.

I'm not talking about eating BBQ on the sand when everyone has the day off. I'm talking about a BBQ on the 4th of July to celebrate the 4th of July... Little flags everywhere, red white and blue table cloths and napkins. Sparklers. I'm talking about attending a Parade in honor of 4th of July. I'm talking about standing and facing the flag during the national anthem. Most may swell with sinful pride as the music plays but I do not.

Like Extol said, you can be there for a different reason than everyone else. I think that's a spot on analogy to attending a gay wedding.

[lilitalienboi16]

I'd go. Doesn't mean you're sanctioning the lifestyle. Doesn't mean you approve. Just means you love your niece. No one needs your approval anyway. They're getting married regardless.

I'd go to a 4th of July BBQ. Doesn't mean I approve of war or people killing and being killed. Doesn't mean I 'support the troops'. It might 'look' like I do but what do I care what it 'looks' like to others.

I stand when the National Anthem is played at my kids pee-wee football games. Doesn't mean I support the religion of nationalism. I'm sure it 'looks' like I do but what do I care what the crowd thinks.

Like Paul said.. 'I know you're going to judge me but it means very little to me to be judged by you, or any man for that matter... I don't even judge myself. I have one judge.' (Paraphrased)

This is a bad analogy. Regardless of the past and present sins of the USA, you are not attending events that celebrate her sins. You are attending events to eat, spend time with family, and watch football. Eating ribs and watching pee wee football are not vile affections (Rom. 1:26).

Really? Veterans Day, 4th of July, Memorial Day.... Are you saying these are not days set aside for the honoring and celebration of those who have fought, killed and/or have been killed in war?

I do feel you are grasping at straws to justify behavior that is condemned. Eating barbeque on the sand when you have time off from work (national holidays) does not equate to participating in an event where a sin condemned in scripture is being embraced and celebrated. The word of God does not condemn attending the beach on any day or enjoying good food with friends and family. It does however condemn homosexuality, murder, etc...

Sure, There maybe events on national holidays to celebrate the life and accomplishments of military veterans which involves killing and murder  but I personally don't attend those events. If i'm at the beach with my wife and daughter having a good time, enjoying the sun, and eating good food with friends, and it happens to be the 4th of july (or the middle of winter), thats all it is, being at the beach. I'm not celebrating anyones anything or participating in any sinful act.

You probably don't see nationalism as a religion.

I'm not talking about eating BBQ on the sand when everyone has the day off. I'm talking about a BBQ on the 4th of July to celebrate the 4th of July... Little flags everywhere, red white and blue table cloths and napkins. Sparklers. I'm talking about attending a Parade in honor of 4th of July. I'm talking about standing and facing the flag during the national anthem. Most may swell with sinful pride as the music plays but I do not.

Like Extol said, you can be there for a different reason than everyone else. I think that's a spot on analogy to attending a gay wedding.

I didn't understand Jesse to mean that. m

Jesse was saying that not everyone at the beach is there to celebrate war and violence, carnal men and national pride.  Beaches, good food, etc... are not reserved for celebrating sinful behavior.

Attending a wedding however is reserved for celebrating the union of two people whose wedding it is. Being there places you there for very specific reasons of which are included to show your support for the couple and participate in the festivities celebrating their union. The reason matters.

You can be at the beach or any public event for that matter for a million reasons including just taking a stroll. You can't really be at a private event, a wedding, for more than one though. You're there for the couple to support them. In the case of gay marriage, to support that which God condemns.

[Kat]

Here's a thought largeli, if a gay couple invited you to their home to have dinner with them, do you think that would be the same thing as attending their wedding ceremony?  Of course not, IMO it is not the same thing at all... where as the ceremony is to celebrate the joining of the couple (in the case being discussed) in a biblical condemned relationship. Dinner well it's eating a meal and we have to learn to differentiate what one represents from the other.  Christ ate with sinners (Mark 2:15), yet we know He would never do anything that appeared to condone their sins.

I can show I care for and love a person in many ways, but I would not want to do something that would appear that I am in agreement with or condoning a homosexual relationship and those in attendance would have to think you were. I believe it is important for a believer to begin to live the life of obedience and that certainly includes what others see in us.

Matt 5:16  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

1Peter 3:15  But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;
v. 16  having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed.
v. 17  For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[acomplishedartis]

And HERE the why I don't go to church... 

Not that I am anyone important, but at least for me; Just my presence would be advertising for them and for free--Ha

Plus, I don't like the rituals that they perform there.


ps. (once in a long while, I go to a church where no body knows me, just to check out if there is something new, like some new techniques of manpulation, or just to remember what kind of such dark places I was saved from)

[Dennis Vogel]

Just showing up makes you part of the wedding.

[lareli]

You guys keep telling everyone what their reasons for attending are. As if you know the thoughts of another person.

You keep saying things like "the only reason you'd attend is..." Or "there's a specific reason you'd be there.." I personally wouldn't go so far as to tell someone what their reasons for doing something are. How foolish of me to presume to know what their motives and intentions are.

Kat you said you would not want to do anything that would make it appear that you support homosexual marriage. Why care about appearances? I'd gladly appear as a fool to the whole world if I knew my motives were clean.

Like I said, I'd go. And it would mean very little to me to be judged by men as to why they think I'm there.

Ok I'll stop now.

[Dennis Vogel]

You guys keep telling everyone what their reasons for attending are. As if you know the thoughts of another person.

You keep saying things like "the only reason you'd attend is..." Or "there's a specific reason you'd be there.." I personally wouldn't go so far as to tell someone what their reasons for doing something are. How foolish of me to presume to know what their motives and intentions are.

Kat you said you would not want to do anything that would make it appear that you support homosexual marriage. Why care about appearances? I'd gladly appear as a fool to the whole world if I knew my motives were clean.

Like I said, I'd go. And it would mean very little to me to be judged by men as to why they think I'm there.

Ok I'll stop now.

This has nothing to do with judging. It's about right and wrong.

Gen 19:14  And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.

Gen 19:15  And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.

Jud 1:7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Luk 17:32  Remember Lot's wife.

Sodom was sinful enough to destroy it.

"Appearances" matter a lot.

Joh 13:15  For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.

Jesus is our example and we are to be an example for others.

Mat 5:16  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

[Kat]

You guys keep telling everyone what their reasons for attending are. As if you know the thoughts of another person.

You keep saying things like "the only reason you'd attend is..." Or "there's a specific reason you'd be there.." I personally wouldn't go so far as to tell someone what their reasons for doing something are. How foolish of me to presume to know what their motives and intentions are.

Kat you said you would not want to do anything that would make it appear that you support homosexual marriage. Why care about appearances? I'd gladly appear as a fool to the whole world if I knew my motives were clean.

Like I said, I'd go. And it would mean very little to me to be judged by men as to why they think I'm there.

Ok I'll stop now.

Are you really trying to say that we are wrong to presume that somebody that attends a wedding ceremony is there to congratulate the couple on their marriage? You must be grasping at straws to hold that view... I mean what else would somebody be there for?

To attend a gay marriage would most certainly appear to be supporting that lifestyle... so I guess maybe if you are determined to attend and don't want anybody to misunderstand, you could go to everybody there and make sure they know you do not agree with it? That would be totally ridiculous, because somebody with that attitude should not attend in the first and certainly would not be welcomed there.

Well I'm going to be more presumptuous and say it sounds like you are trying to straddle the fence on this issue, not willing to make a stand that you are not for homosexuality, because you would want to celebrate their wedding with them, what did Christ say about being lukewarm.

Rev 3:15  "'I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot!
v. 16  So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth.

Here is an email about what appearances mean.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6212.0.html -----------

        I am curious about this passage.  In the NIV it reads Avoid every kind of evil.  This appears to imply that we should not do anything that is wrong.  Similar translations can be found in a number of other translations.  For example:
         
        hold aloof from every form of wickedness - Darby
         
        abstain from every form of evil - American Standard
         
        Stay away from every form of evil - Holman
         
        But now let's read this same apparently unremarkable passage in the King James Bible, where it reads: Abstain from all appearance of evil.  This is so different.  It seems to imply not merely that we should not do anything wrong, but that we should not do anything which could be construed as wrong.  Suddenly it becomes one of the most challenging passages in the Bible.
         
        But is the King James correct in its translation?  Similar translations can be found in a few other versions:
         
        from all appearance of evil abstain ye - Young's Literal
         
        Keep away from everything that even looks like sin - New Life Version
         
        The New Life seems pretty clear on this point.
         
        My question is simply this:  Which translation is correct?
         
        Thank you in advance for your reply.
         

        Dear Quentin:  They are ALL correct. The word translated "appearance" in King James and others is the Greek word "idos" and it is translated: "shape" (Luke 3:22); "fashion" (Luke 9:29); "sight" (II Cor. 5:7);  and "appearance" (I Thes. 5:22).
         
        The Greek word "idos" is define as: " a view, that is, form (literally or figuratively): - appearance, fashion, shape, sight" (Strong's Concordance # 1491).
         
        The word "form" means: "The body or outward APPEARANCE...." (American Heritage College Dictionary).

        God be with you,
        Ray

[acomplishedartis]

Hi all, I have a small dilemma and I'm wondering if anyone on the forum can help me.

I guess everyone is just trying to help...

[lostANDfound]

Who was it who said, "a person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still?"