Romans 1

[lareli]

When Paul writes in Romans 1 about Gods wrath being revealed to "those" is he talking about religious people or pagans/atheists? I'll underline the parts that make me wonder if he was talking about religious people/ Christians..

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


I used to read verse 20 and conclude that this was talking about atheists who don't believe there's a creator. But now I read and see that these people,

1. Suppress the truth. Which leads me to believe they had the truth.
2. What may be known about God is plain to them.
3. They knew God
4. Exchanged the glory of the immortal God and they exchanged the truth about God. Which would seem they had to first possess it before they could exchange it.
5. They did not retain the knowledge of God. Again indicating they possessed the knowledge at one time.
6. They know Gods righteous decree.

Is this a prophecy from Paul which spans all generations even today's religious conditions? What about verses 24-27? We all know that religious people in positions of authority sometimes commit perverted acts but I don't see it as being as rampant as Paul describes.. so perhaps this particular part (v24-27)is talking about something more specific that was happening in Rome and not part of a prophecy for all generations?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks guys.

[Dave in Tenn]

Ray wrote or spoke about this, but for the life of me I can't remember where.  I think you (and he) are correct about who Paul is referring to.

Whether or not vs. 24-27 are a broad prophecy I can't say.  But I do think they are a "specific" prophecy to a tendency of those Paul is referring to in his day, and in Rome (and in Jerusalem) that extends to today.  Over and over I've heard of self-styled "apostles, prophets, bishops, etc" who, given half a chance, have used the cover of religion to "make merchandise" of their followers in ways beyond extorting money.  One can almost predict that a Jim Jones or a David Koresh (or a Herbert Armstrong) or some other such will make a play for the wives, daughters, and even the sons of their followers.  I'm not saying that's the only way these verses can "come true", but I do think that's the kind of thing that Paul was talking about more specifically.

Ray brought up Rom 1:31  ...without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful... in questioning Dr. Kennedy, and I doubt he was grossly sexually perverted.  Probably a good family man. 

[Musterseed]

Hi Largeli
I read Tophet of Old tonight and Ray speaks of the Bohemian Grove gang.He said the powerful leaders of the world know for a fact that they are in total defiance of the word of God and also
are supported by the religious leaders who know of their shenanigans.He said they love the taste of unclean religion and worldliness.
He quoted scriptures form Isaiah 66:17... and I think there's a match for it in Isaiah 65:2-6

Hope this helps. If it does it will be the first time I ever helped anyone on BT.😂😂😂😂😂

Peace to you.   Pamela

[NateWhite]

I had at first believed that who God is speaking about are all who had known God and the Truth but were foolish enough to walk away from it and spiritually God quenched them and allowed them to go on their merry way being ignorant... God can make himself known, but the world can so easily take those spiritual gifts. I am new here and grateful to be learning to entirety of the Truth. This is a blessing

[cheekie3]

largeli -

You raise a very interesting question:

When Paul writes in Romans 1 about Gods wrath being revealed to "those" is he talking about religious people or pagans/atheists? I'll underline the parts that make me wonder if he was talking about religious people/ Christians..

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


I used to read verse 20 and conclude that this was talking about atheists who don't believe there's a creator. But now I read and see that these people,

1. Suppress the truth. Which leads me to believe they had the truth.
2. What may be known about God is plain to them.
3. They knew God
4. Exchanged the glory of the immortal God and they exchanged the truth about God. Which would seem they had to first possess it before they could exchange it.
5. They did not retain the knowledge of God. Again indicating they possessed the knowledge at one time.
6. They know Gods righteous decree.

Is this a prophecy from Paul which spans all generations even today's religious conditions? What about verses 24-27? We all know that religious people in positions of authority sometimes commit perverted acts but I don't see it as being as rampant as Paul describes.. so perhaps this particular part (v24-27)is talking about something more specific that was happening in Rome and not part of a prophecy for all generations?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks guys.

Is His Word for everyone or those He Called and Chose?

Does not Romans 1:18-32 (KJV) state that it is those who show the opposite of the Fruit of His Spirit that this refers to (which includes all religions, beliefs, atheists, and all mankind except those that obey His Word) as He has declared that His Creation is all the proof that they need to acknowledge Him?

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Romans 5:9 (KJV):
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Ephesians 5:6 (KJV):
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Colossians 3:6 (KJV):
for which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Revelation 11:18 (KJV):
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Revelation 16:19 (KJV):
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Warmest Regards.

George

[lareli]

Pamela yes that absolutely helps and I can assure you that this is not the first time you've written words on BT that have helped to inspire thought and/or understanding. I'm going to revisit that paper on Tophet of old.

thank you guys and gals.

[cjwood]

Ray wrote or spoke about this, but for the life of me I can't remember where. 

this is probably not what you were thinking about dave, but ray does discuss the versus referred to in romans 1.  he doesn't specify who paul was referring to. but, it's a good starting place.

Outside of Leviticus, and these are levitical codes, it is indeed not clear from exegesis that homosexuality in the strictest sense constitutes a sin.


COMMENT:  Oh really?  And I suppose you don't see a connection between homosexuality and:

Rom 1:24-28,  Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:  Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.  For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient."  Seriously, NH, what part of those verses don't you understand?

What if God had said this in Rom. 1:24-29:  "God gave them up to CLEANESS through the LOVE of their own hearts, to HONOR their own bodies between themselves.  For this cause God gave them up to LOVING affections:  for even their women did what was perfectly NATURAL doing that which is NOT against nature.  And likewise also the men, choosing a relationship with men rather than a woman, longed in their LOVE one toward another: MEN WITH MEN working that which is LOVELY...."

Now then, had these verses stated what I suggested above, would you not use these very verses to justify a homosexual life style?  YES OF COURSE YOU WOULD;  YOU KNOW THAT YOU WOULD, and no one could convince you that this was NOT speaking of homosexuality!!  Cannot you see your own hypocracy in this matter?

In your text you appear selective with the interpretations of the greek as indeed other writers state that New Testament passages do not explicitly mention homosexuality as opposed to prostitution and pederasty.


COMMENT:  You mean that the Scriptures do not use the WORD "homosexuality?"  Reread Rom. 1:24-28 again, and this time pay close attention to the words.  This sextion of Scripture is speaking of homosexuality.  Give me a break!

Homosexuality does not harm the consensual partners unlike bestiality which is obviously not consensual, nor paedophilia which is very harmful to the child. On that basis you could say that circumcision should be banned because it is counter to nature, no longer required of christians, and harmful to the child. Or that heterosexual sex is wrong because women are more likely to develop cervical cancer from it, have unwanted pregnancies, and contract STDs. I am sure you don't believe that but pundits like yourself seem to simply dig their toes in and deny any biological basis for homosexuality. Yes the studies thus far are frought but the fact is that human reproductive systems and neurology especially are complex and influenced by a number of different genes, hormonal exposures, and psychosocial factors as well. It simply flys in the face of our collective life experience to say that it is a choice. It is not! If I could take a pill or say a prayer then God knows I would be heterosexual by now.

claudia

p.s.  ray's comments are in blue.  one of his many fans' words, in an email to ray are bolded.

[Dave in Tenn]

Claudia, I was thinking of the place where Ray said the word "holding" in v 18 (KJV) was better translated "with-holding" or "holding back" or something like that.  My little word-study mostly agrees with that.

[cheekie3]

Dave -

Regarding this:

Claudia, I was thinking of the place where Ray said the word "holding" in v 18 (KJV) was better translated "with-holding" or "holding back" or something like that.  My little word-study mostly agrees with that.

Is Kat's Post on this thread what you are referring to:

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,10960.msg94701.html#msg94701

This is the full transcript of Ray's audio on repentance:

https://bible-truths.com/forums/index.php/topic,3709.0.html

Warmest Regards.

George