Evil in a city

[lareli]

"Can there be evil in a city and the Lord has not done it?"

I assume if you're reading this now than you're obviously on the internet and so you probably already have heard about the mass murder in Las Vegas last night..

I have a question about God sending evil on a city.

Is the evil that God creates/sends, is it punishment for something particular or is it given to us as part of our experience of good and evil?

On another thread someone hypothesized that historically bad weather was sent to America for a particular reason, a specific sin. What about historically bad violence though. Rays towers paper pointed toward God as sending 9/11 on a corrupt nation but being a corrupt nation is a very general description. Did Ray ever give a specific reason or sin for God sending 9/11?

I was taught (perhaps falsely) that there's a theme in scripture that before God sends punishment upon a nation or people, that He always announces a warning through His prophets before hand so as to give the people a chance to repent before Him.

Where are the prophets warning America before 9/11, Hurricanes, mass shootings?

I do not know of any in particular.. so it leads me to believe that most of this evil is part of our necessary experience of good and evil..

(I don't mean to only focus on America.. I know there is violence all over the world.)

[Musterseed]

Deut.8, 17-19) And you say in your heart" my power and the might of my hand has gotten me this wealth, but you shall remember the Lord your God for it is He that gives you power to get wealth,,
and it shall be, if you do at all forget the Lord your God and walk after other Gods and serve them and worship them, I testify You this day that you shall surely perish" .

When those Twin Towers fell, it was just not another disaster, it was a symbol of disaster to
come of Bibilical Proportions.
Ray's writes about the importance of Symbolism.
Sorry about the bold letters, I don't know how to use all of these doodads.

I think this scripture is a warning Largeli, to America and all Western World.
A terrorist incident happened in Edmonton, Canada yesterday. He ran down a group of people and stabbed the police officer several times. It's happening all over.

Ray says in the Towers Paper
" As we have seen in Jeremiah, God will punish ALL NATIONS, but the Christian nations will be the first to fall. First God punishes His people and then He punishes those He used as a club in His hand to punish his people. Few will take this warning seriously- what about you?

Do you think we are even more nearer than we think, I hope so. God Bless You Largeli ,,,Pamela

Oh, last night on the beach, the moon was shining on the ocean and it was shimmering like silver stars dancing and the sky was full of stars also. It was so beautiful. I also found lots of sand dollars
when the tide went out. They are perfectly round pieces of clay with a hole in the centre of a
sketched flower, like a Daisy. Our God is so amazing, He is everywhere and is so good. I Love Him.

[Dennis Vogel]

Not all the time:

Ecc 9:11  I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

[Dennis Vogel]

Luk 13:4  Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

Luk 13:5  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

[arion]

What really happened was not as scripted by the media as a single nut with multiple firearms as they rarely tell the truth about anything.  Same with 911.  This is a lot more scripted than many of us would be comfortable contemplating.

Regardless....

We had a total eclipse across the U.S. and God does use signs in the heavens.
Shortly thereafter we had a Cat-IV hurricane roar thru Texas.
A week after that we had a Cat-IV hurricane ravage Florida.
A week after that we had a Cat-IV hurricane decimate Puerto Rico which missed the mainland.
And after that we had the worse mass shooting in the U.S. by a 'lone' nut with no criminal record or prior indication of mental instability.


Unfortunately this is just the beginning of a very dark time.  All that being said when tragedies strike I reckon back to the same thought.  If there was a better way for a Sovereign God to run his creation to accomplish His will then he would do so.  These things are all a necessary part of God's plan and not without good reason.  If we wish to know what is in our immediate future and if your not sure what that might be I suggest that you re-read Ray's paper on the twin towers.  He pretty much nailed it.

While this may not be God's 'judgement' against America nevertheless God's physical and spiritual laws are still in force and both cause and effect as well as sowing and reaping still function.

http://bible-truths.com/towers.htm

[Dave in Tenn]

And before all those things, other things happened.  And in some places, worse things than those.  And at other times, worse things as well.  And things will continue to happen.  And before this thing, other things that contributed to this thing.  And after this thing, other things in response to it.  Think deeply about that scripture Dennis posted.   

[lareli]

Isaiah 30 not only talks about the towers falling and judgement on Gods Israel but it goes on to prophecy that "one" would put a thousand to flight. I can't help but think of "one" putting a thousand to flight when thinking about these types of events that happened in LV and other American and European nations.. which are the Israel of God in prophecy.

[lareli]

And you're right Dennis.. wise counsel. We should let these events serve as reminders to keep with repentance instead of getting caught up in meaningless speculations.

And Dave you're right that these things happen and will continue. And sometimes worse things happen. But we only create hashtags when it happens to us.. us being Christian democracies of America and Europe. No one ever created a "pray for Iraq" hashtag. Which only highlights our hypocrisy and need of judging.

[Dennis Vogel]

Luk 13:4  Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

Luk 13:5  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Amen Dennis, the above is precisely the case & ultimate reality for all !  Repent or perish !

The point is, the eighteen people that died when the tower fell on them were not evil people. They were just average sinners like all of us. Just because something evil happens to someone does not mean they had it coming.

Rom 5:3  And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

1Pe 4:13  But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

[lareli]

Arion, yes these events are scripted but it's God who's writing this story not man. All of history is His-story and He is the author, no? We are His creatures playing the part that He has designated for us to play.. in history there are heroes, villains, victims... pots formed as He sees fit for His story.

As Ray showed in the Towers paper Isaiah 30 is part of the script. Ray used Isaiah 30 to show why it is America is being judged (which answered my original question), where the 9/11 event is symbolized in Isaiah 30, and I can't help but think that all these lone terrorist attacks within the western Christian democracies, likewise, are symbolic of the "one putting a thousand to flight" verses in Isaiah 30 as well as Deut 32.

But we know the end of His story will be good.

I won't say our sole focus should be on the end of His story though, as we are admonished to pay attention to the "now" that is, the sign of the times. Again though as Dennis quoted from Luke, we should be reminded to keep with repentance for myself.

The Lords will be done.

[lareli]

Deut.8, 17-19) And you say in your heart" my power and the might of my hand has gotten me this wealth, but you shall remember the Lord your God for it is He that gives you power to get wealth,,
and it shall be, if you do at all forget the Lord your God and walk after other Gods and serve them and worship them, I testify You this day that you shall surely perish" .

When those Twin Towers fell, it was just not another disaster, it was a symbol of disaster to
come of Bibilical Proportions.
Ray's writes about the importance of Symbolism.
Sorry about the bold letters, I don't know how to use all of these doodads.

I think this scripture is a warning Largeli, to America and all Western World.
A terrorist incident happened in Edmonton, Canada yesterday. He ran down a group of people and stabbed the police officer several times. It's happening all over.

Ray says in the Towers Paper
" As we have seen in Jeremiah, God will punish ALL NATIONS, but the Christian nations will be the first to fall. First God punishes His people and then He punishes those He used as a club in His hand to punish his people. Few will take this warning seriously- what about you?

Do you think we are even more nearer than we think, I hope so. God Bless You Largeli ,,,Pamela

Oh, last night on the beach, the moon was shining on the ocean and it was shimmering like silver stars dancing and the sky was full of stars also. It was so beautiful. I also found lots of sand dollars
when the tide went out. They are perfectly round pieces of clay with a hole in the centre of a
sketched flower, like a Daisy. Our God is so amazing, He is everywhere and is so good. I Love Him.

I don't know Pamela

I know that Ray said in emails that his Towers paper was not saying that 9/11 was the fulfillment of Isaiah 30 but he stressed that he was only saying that 9/11 was symbolic of Isaiah 30. But he also did say, as you pointed out, that 9/11 was not just another "thing" or general catastrophe. he did say that it was a warning of further judgement to come.. over the passed couple of years I was wondering if maybe Ray was wrong because it's now been over 15 years since 9/11 and nothing like 9/11 has happened since. At least not to the Christian democracies.

But then this latest "thing" happened in Las Vegas. I keep thinking about that verse, also in Isaiah 30 that says "one" will put a thousand to flight. I think that all these terror attacks are symbolic of that verse.

I think about the day when Isaiah wrote that line and I think about how the idea of "one" making "a thousand" flee out of terror, must have sounded absolutely preposterous to someone living during the days of Isaiah or in Christs days even. I think about the weapons available to "one" man two thousand years ago. It just would sound absurd to say that "one" man could frighten "a thousand" to flight using a sword or spear or whatever.

But today it is just a "thing" that happens. It's normal to hear about these "things" now days. In fact when I first heard of this latest "thing" I remarked to my wife that it's strange how normal it is to hear about these "things". It truly is a sign of the times we are in Pamela so I want to examine myself and keep with repentance and keep my eyes upward at the glory to come.

[Dave in Tenn]

I think all of these "things" are meant to separate.  He didn't come to bring peace, but the sword.  It's always struck me odd how the same event (or similar conditions) can produce more than one result.  Some people thrive after adversity.  Others are destroyed by the same or similar.  In some, love grows.  In others, hate--or fear, which perfect love drives out.  Whether or not that is the "judgement" spoken of in Scripture, I can't say.  (These things happen to "believers" and "non-believers" both, as we might define it, though people with some measure of "faith" seem to be the ones most triumphant).  But it very much seems similar to it to me.  One will be taken, the other left.  The wheat and the tares.  The good fish and the bad.  The wise and foolish virgins.  Many are called, but few chosen.  Are such seemingly "natural" 'separations' examples as well?  For now, they are to me. 

[lareli]

I think all of these "things" are meant to separate.  He didn't come to bring peace, but the sword.  It's always struck me odd how the same event (or similar conditions) can produce more than one result.  Some people thrive after adversity.  Others are destroyed by the same or similar.  In some, love grows.  In others, hate--or fear, which perfect love drives out.  Whether or not that is the "judgement" spoken of in Scripture, I can't say.  (These things happen to "believers" and "non-believers" both, as we might define it, though people with some measure of "faith" seem to be the ones most triumphant).  But it very much seems similar to it to me.  One will be taken, the other left.  The wheat and the tares.  The good fish and the bad.  The wise and foolish virgins.  Many are called, but few chosen.  Are such seemingly "natural" 'separations' examples as well?  For now, they are to me.

I very much agree with this post. Especially the first sentence.

It seems as if even the smallest "things" are causing great separation among people today. Doesn't have to be a "violent" event.. any given day I look at my social media news feed and some group is offended by another. Lines in the sand are being drawn in many aspects of social life. Whether it's about "flags", "vaccines", "gender", so on and so forth.

I too, like you said, don't know if this is "the" judgment, but I can say that there is surely a darkness hovering over our society in the USA and probably everywhere else too. I feel overwhelmed myself as I read people's declarations of their line-in-the-sand posts on social media or when I hear people's opinions when talking to them. I try to stay neutral whenever I feel someone is trying to pull me to their "side" but more and more I have to fight the urge to just tell people to stop trying to tell me what to think! Stop trying to make me pick a side in something I don't care about.. whether it's pro-vaccine or anti-vaccine or pro-flag or anti-flag or whatever.. it all feels like religious fervor and I wish I would just tell people that they're acting like little cult members trying to convert others.

I pray that His elect, whoever they be, would overcome the darkness, animosity, fear, anger, and tribalism with light.. in His good time.

[Dave in Tenn]

Your news feed sounds like mine.     I've got "friends" on both sides of pretty much every "thing".  The poor Facebook algorithm has no idea what to do with me.  And all I can do with it, sometimes, is just throw my hands up in surrender.   





   
 

[John from Kentucky]

I am really strange.  I do not have a Facebook account.  Do not tweet or any other stuff.

My family does not understand, especially the younger ones.