Hello anybody There?

[Rocco]

Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. Thinking seventh seal opened no one posting for days. Ran across this from one of Ray's emails. Thought it especially relevant today.

I am an "Ambassador for Christ" (I Cor 5:20). Ambassadors cannot legally take part in the politics of foreign nations.  Jesus never, ever got involved in the operations of the Roman Government over the Jews. We are never taught to "march on Washington," etc. But we are told to COME OUT OF THE WORLD and be separate. "Let the DEAD bury the dead."
God be with you,
Ray

[indianabob]

Rocco,

The framers of our constitution told us we would have the right or privilege of voting for our representatives rather than to have them appointed by our betters, the "blue bloods" of the nation. You can see where that led...it led to the people voting themselves benefits from the national treasury. It led to a "party" system wherein officials competed for our votes by promising us favor and special consideration.
This system then does not follow the principles that God favors and so I do not vote for either party and just try to live peaceably with all people and conduct myself as a respectful visitor to this nation.
In discussions of this nature I am asked "what would happen if everyone followed your example and did not vote?"
My answer has always been taken from scripture as I understand it. There is no problem with that ever happening since God is not now calling the many to be ambassadors for Christ.
Indiana Bob

[waterfall77]

Good response,  Bob.

[Rocco]

I agree. I remember in the 80's we so called evangelicals were all excited and active in what was labeled the "Moral Majority" . We despised those that we considered unpatriotic, especially people like JW's who refused to pledge allegiance to the flag. Looking back I see the wisdom of God in how he has ordained the affairs of humanity also in observing his strange work in the world at this moment. I see a little bit clearer everyday why I should not judge anyone and even love my enemy even though those same people would hate me and boot me out of their churches today. I still catch myself complaining about how the government is handling this virus, but have to repent of that carnality and remember this is of God too

Act 5:39

But if it is from God, you will not be able to overthrow them. You may even find yourselves fighting against God!"

[Doug]

Stopped voting after reading about what Ray had to say. However for some time have been searching for answers to questions regarding my feelings of election results. If things do not go the way I think is good for all it effects me a lot. I fully understand it is God's intention. Some on the forum have stated they care not about election outcomes. Starting to see a bit clearer now but it is a very difficult struggle to get where most here seem to be. Not even sure any progress has been made. Any help would be appreciated.

Doug

[Rocco]

Hey Doug I often feel the same way. Old habits plus non-stop news from around the world. Do you follow the news habitually? I cant seem to get enough of it TV, radio, internet podcast etc I feel I've got to know whats happening now. I've really been following the flooding in China and possible failure of the Three Gorges Dam. It's like coming across an accident on the highway its impossible not to look. I remember Ray saying he now views the scripture as one big parable and on one of his videos he mentioned how humanity has always feared god(s) but he no longer had that fear. Thats where I want to be and where I believe the Lord is taking his elect in this age. Burning out the old trees, grass,  bringing down the mountains in our life that all represent who we are in this physical world. The truth that sets us free is not found on a news sight its not geopolitical, economic, academic, medical nor anything else of this world. The Lord tells us not to worry not even in a pandemic.  Even thought its not a physical dying & burning its not fun,  I need to be careful that the cares of this world dont extinguish that fire nor resuscitate that death prematurely. Well, I can only experience this, its the Lords work and his fire and I believe it will not be quenched until it has accomplished its purpose.
Psa 2:11

Serve the LORD with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.

[Doug]

Hi Rocky,
Yes, way to much news and commentary. What has been bothering me is the inability to not worry about things and to a certain level accepting God's will. My emotions should be no different if an outcome is different than what I think is best. The only thing that matters is what a God has deemed to be. Not sure properly saying this, but feel it is to large degree lack of faith.

[Rocco]

 Doug I understand and I too feel guilty from what I believe the devil whispers in my ear that I have no faith. That's a lie, it may be little faith but its not no faith.  Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith. I think sometimes that I'm not worrying  but it seems I'm just suppressing it and often get acid re-flux. I believe there is a difference between worry and concern. Paul had concern for all the churches (2 Cor 11:28) but we know he also said this:  2Ti 1:12

For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed to Him until that Day.

The other night I was thinking about these things and this verse hit me, I had to get out of bed and look it up.
1 John  3:20  For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

That vs brings a lot of comfort to me and hopefully you as well.

In the process and in the fire but He stands with us in the fire Dan. 3:23-25

Your brother
Rocky

[AwesomeSavior]

Rocco:

Don't know if anyone caught the minor error from Ray with your original post on this thread: I am an "ambassador for Christ" (I Cor 5:20). First Corinthians Chapter 5 only goes up to verse 13. The ambassador verse is from 2 Corinthians 5:20.

Ray said "ambassadors cannot legally take part in the politics of foreign nations". Did you all catch Ray's use of the word "foreign" in his sentence?

The "come out from among them and be ye separate" is from 2 Corinthians 6:17, and is referring to being unequally yoked with unbelievers, Belial (worthless or wicked), infidels, and idols from the previous 3 verses of that chapter. A deeper dive into "unequally yoked" through Strong's reveals "to associate discordantly". That word "discordant" can mean not being in accord, conflicting, disagreeable. In other words, I don't try to be in disagreeable conflict with the unbelievers of the world with a "march on Washington" or getting involved with the "operations" of a government.

Here are some verses from the Bible from both Jesus and Paul; something people can consider:

"Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" (Matt 22:21 & Mar 12:17 & Luk 20:25) [Jesus].

Paul makes his first appeal against being scourged, identifying himself as a Roman citizen (Acts 22:25-29).

Paul makes his second appeal as a Roman citizen, unto Caesar: "I appeal unto Caesar" (Acts 25:11 & Acts 28:19).

"For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve, Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee" (Acts 27:23-24). [Jesus and Paul].

Why did Paul bother to appeal unto the ruling political power of that day? Why not just accept his sentence? Jesus also confirmed that he had to be brought before Caesar...

Dean

[Rocco]

Good points Dean. The word foreign did jump out when I read Ray's email, did not catch that the verse was wrong. I see that in few places on the sight as well as crediting the wrong person with a quote.In his videos I laugh when Ray would often say Hebrews when he really meant the book of Romans. He loved the book of Romans esp. Ch. 8 Ray's insights are profound but I'm also encouraged by his humanity.

Heb 11:9

By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise;
Heb 11:10

for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

[Doug]

Thanks for the reply Rocky. Always got the teaching that all was ordained by God. That part took a couple of years to really sink in. Then over time would see where folks would say they did not care have an election would turn out, Jesse had the last post stating to the effect. That started me thinking plus other post that why would we pray or desire something that was not God's intention. So now the light bulb finally came on that this would be wrong and understand what others were now saying. Now the struggle is to let go when my desires are not aligned to God's will. That will need to change.

Doug

[Dave in Tenn]

I'd argue that Paul did not so much appeal to his citizenship to avoid a scourging as to keep the whole proceeding upright and to make everybody involved know what their accountability was.  There's even love for the Centurion in my reading.  Beyond that, he was astute in judging the situation.  It was the Lord Himself that soon after told Paul he must go and give witness in Rome.

So much of this account resonates with me and the "politics" I've seen in my life, both as a christian and as a believer.

For me, ceasing being involved in electoral politics has had more to do with leaving my own leanings and ideological preferences aside to stop either pride or disappointment from taking root than to doing what I'm "supposed" to do, or not do on election day.  If my guy wins, it's pride that comes first, usually followed by disappointment to one degree or another.  If my guy loses, disappointment comes early and "I told you so" pride comes later.

Rome was the whole world of Paul's day.  My turn to bring witness to the Caeser is coming, if God the Lord has spoken it, another time. In the meantime, I am what I am by the Grace of God.  It is both spiritual and practical to recognize that my "power" in voting in national elections is exceedingly tiny... especially in the US electoral system.  But I don't fault anyone for doing otherwise if they have faith or need humility.

[Rene]

If my guy wins, it's pride that comes first, usually followed by disappointment to one degree or another.  If my guy loses, disappointment comes early and "I told you so" pride comes later.

This statement by Dave reminds me of a truth I've come to appreciate when it comes to voting.

Many of us may not vote "physically", but if we are still inwardly rooting for one candidate over another to win, you may as well have gone to the polls.  We can deceive ourselves and pretend, but God knows our heart and inward thoughts. 
 
As Ray has said many times, getting saved is the hardest thing we will ever experience. 

[indianabob]

Friend Rene,
I see your point and agree.
My situation may be a little different.
I don't have a sense of duty to vote, especially in Federal elections.
=
I had this feeling in part before becoming enlightened about God's plan for mankind.
I worked for the military for four years, then the US post office and next the local Police Department.
In each of these jobs I noted the partisan politics that existed and came to realize that we generally are voting for favors for ourselves or for our friends, family, political party etc.
=
I don't believe that God recommends that type of attitude. I think God would rather we not regularly depend upon other people to take care of our needs, but instead learn to develop and build wealth and character for ourselves and our close family and then be willing to share our blessings with our needy neighbors IF they are also willing to take what we provide and use it properly to build their own ability to develop wealth and character. This approach begins in parent child, family relations and may hopefully expand into general society.

We may, I believe have this approach to charity without preaching a particular religion or belief system. Plus it does not matter what nation or political system we live in. Everyone benefits from learning to discipline the self and thereby mature their own self reliance.

Just my view, Indiana Bob

If my guy wins, it's pride that comes first, usually followed by disappointment to one degree or another.  If my guy loses, disappointment comes early and "I told you so" pride comes later.

This statement by Dave reminds me of a truth I've come to appreciate when it comes to voting.

Many of us may not vote "physically", but if we are still inwardly rooting for one candidate over another to win, you may as well have gone to the polls.  We can deceive ourselves and pretend, but God knows our heart and inward thoughts. 
 
As Ray has said many times, getting saved is the hardest thing we will ever experience.

[Rocco]

In Australia you are required by law to vote failure to vote has a fine of $30 to $80. Double conflict right? How does his verse apply?
Mat 17:27

"Nevertheless, lest we offend them, go to the sea, cast in a hook, and take the fish that comes up first. And when you have opened its mouth, you will find a piece of money; take that and give it to them for Me and you."

[Porter]

Rocky, it's not really a double conflict if the heart is in the right place, especially in a situation where it's the law and they have no choice. What ever is done, must be done with faith.

Mat 17:27 has to be a parable. Jesus never payed temple tax, so Peter must have lied. You can see this when Jesus confronts Peter (before Peter even speaks to Jesus about this) shortly after Peter said to the tax men that yes, Jesus does indeed pays the temple tax.

I think the point is, Jesus' Kingdom is not of this world, Jesus is King, so the sons are free because the King is free. It's more about paying tithes and making merchandise of the word of God. Either that or Jesus was saving Peter some embarrassment.

[indianabob]

Hi Rocky,


I see your concern about obeying the law.
When I am forced to have a medicine administered, I don't fight it, I just pray for God to protect me from it.
=
In the case of being forced to fill in a ballot, I would just try...to vote for what I hoped would be the least likely person to win...thereby not garnering any favors for myself.
I used to tell friends that a ballot should always list as an answer, "none of the above" in order to show that I had voted but didn't approve of any of the candidates. 

Indiana Bob

In Australia you are required by law to vote failure to vote has a fine of $30 to $80. Double conflict right? How does his verse apply?
Mat 17:27

"Nevertheless, lest we offend them, go to the sea, cast in a hook, and take the fish that comes up first. And when you have opened its mouth, you will find a piece of money; take that and give it to them for Me and you."

[Dave in Tenn]

Rocco, I'm confident that if I lived in Australia and was legally required to vote, I'd vote.  It isn't even a moral dilemna for me HERE.  The "issue" is spiritual, and the exact same for both of us.  He knows our heart and its motives.

[Shawn Fainn]

I probably should've stopped voting a long time ago, but stopped when i realized both parties work together behind the scenes.. only giving the 'illusion' of choice to the masses.

- Shawn

[Musterseed]

Hello family

From the LOF pt.C , the myth of free will

Ray,,,," Do not be deceived when Jesus said," " I am come that they may have life and that they may have it more abundantly, ( John 10:10) HE WAS SURELY NOT SPEAKING OF THIS LIFE NOW, IN THE FLESH.


My two cents.
I am taught by Jesus through Ray and BT that the world is carnal and spiritually ignorant.
We MUST be separate from it ALL to follow in the footsteps of Jesus. I think that voting gives
one a  false sense of power to which he/she can thwart the very will of God who is Sovereign
over ALL.
Quote from Ray " God is the cause of ALL things that happen.

2 Co. 4:6— For God who commanded the light to shine OUT of darkness ( not in darkness)
                  has shined in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God
                  in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the
                  excellency of the power may be of God and NOT OF US.


The ruler of this world is Satan as we know.

Rom. 13:1—-Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers, (governing authorities who make laws and suppress some of the evil in the world) their is no power but of God. The powers that be are
Ordained of God.

The LOF pt.C ,,,,  for me is an amazing insight into Jer.10:23

O Lord. I know that the way of man is NOT IN HIMSELF. It is not in man that walks to direct his steps.

This myth of free will , I think , after the hell doctrine is most evil.

Ray— "No man has a will that can choose contrary to what God knows will be."

I believe......

If you vote, it's Gods will and if you don't vote that also is Gods will.

Ray quote " I will repeat this until I am blue in the face, and perchance somebody out there will say,
"Ah yes, now I get it."

Every question I ask,,, the answer is All is of God.

In Christ
Pamela