Why the contention?

[hillsbororiver]

As I have mentioned in other threads this Forum will go through periods of relative peace, harmony and edification only to be subjected once again to strife and division. We should not consider it a strange thing to be under attack, it will not come in blatent words, no, it will be subtle and insidious. A thought thrown in, a question not really asked, doubt without justification or apparent cause.

We will hear or read things like, I don't believe everything  on Bible Truths, ok what is it you don't believe? Where are your scriptural witnesses? This is a very subtle and effective way of casting doubt on EVERYTHING without having to prove ANYTHING! Very clever.

Why would anyone be inspired or motivated to come in here and attempt to break up something they were not forced to participate in, but came in on their own, invited themselves so to speak?

Act 13:10  And said,O full of all subtlety and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

1Pe 5:8  Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Some may wonder why we don't let anything and everything have a podium here on this Forum, I believe He is instructing us to be vigilant;

Joh 10:12  But he that is a hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

2Co 4:1  Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;

Mat 10:22  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mat 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Luk 6:22  Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

Joh 15:18  If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

Joh 15:21  But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

Act 9:16  For I will show him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

1Jo 3:13  Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

There have been many spiteful attacks on Bible Truths, Ray, the membership and the moderators, actually it is ultimately a good thing;

Mat 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[Rene]

Hi Joe,

Thank you for trying to keep the integrity of the forum intact.  Your efforts are very much appreciated by those of us who rejoice in being lead to spiritual enlightenment through the aid of Bible-Truths.com.

Peace and grace,
Rene

[JCAliveInMe]

Rom 12:21  Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. 1Jo 4:4  Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Rene,

Thanks for the kind words, as Bobby stated I also find the admonishments or banning of folks to be no fun at all, actually I have only banned 2 or 3 folks in my 6 or 7 months as a moderator.

What I try to do is discern what the motivation of the poster in question is privately and ask the person if they are aware of the rules and terms of membership, once we have established a common ground I invite them to PM me with any questions they may have with compliance or if something stated here offends their spirit. I ALWAYS will privately attempt to deal with a brother or sister before I publicly respond to a statement on the Forum.

What we don't want is a free for all with everything under the sun being preached here or blatent or subtle accusations to be made about Bible Truths or the Forum members. If someone respects these guidelines I respect their questions or comments even if I do not always agree with the point they are making.

I receive anywhere from 50 to 100 PM's per week, often I will get one from a new member or one who does not frequently post asking why certain things are appearing on this Forum, why do I allow some (what they might consider heretical) questionable statements or negative remarks directed at other members. I will also get PM's from folks that think I am being too authoritarian and that I am too wrapped up in Ray's writings to have an open mind about what others may think or believe. I can only go where I feel the spirit is leading me, I pray for His discernment to guide me, not my own.

If only we could consistantly have the fellowship we had at the Conference, what a joyful place this would be. That, I am afraid will not ever be the case here, too many folks with too easy an access to the Internet. We can only try to keep the integrity of the purpose of this Forum and Bible Truths as close to the intentions of the founders as possible. We need to edify, encourage and admonish with love and patience to our brethren in the hope they will also do in kind.

May He grant you His Peace and Wisdom my dear Sister,

Joe  

[jennie]

I know ya'll have a hard task keeping up with the forum and all. All of the moderators, I am sure, work very hard at it. As we all know that there are sometimes "not so good" things that take place. I hope that we all can encourage each other daily whether through kind and caring words or through sharing an insight. I hope this can be because I have been on the receiving end of encouragement, prayers and kind words with all we have been going through. I appreciate ya'll so much for everything! Much Love, Jennie

[chuckusa]

Bobby,

I would feel the same way. It's not a pleasant thing to do. If people could just understand that they are guests here, even when they are members. Well, thats how I see it.

If someone is warned, all they have to do is just take a pause, read the forum rules again, and if they don't understand...to ask...right? Whats so hard about that.

My second post here was rejected. I then went and did just what I described above. I'm sure not everyone agrees with what I say all the time, but I'm still here...I have learned to temper my pen, so to speak, for the benefit of me, and the forum. I'm quite sure we all have to do that sometimes. I don't want to make anyone feel bad, but I am not opposed to being tough when necessary, for the good of all.

Some people just aren't ready to play nicely with others...

Somethings wrong when a display of "spiritual maturity" is not accompanied by a similar "social maturity"....as it were.

Bobby, don't let it get to you...getting banned is the work of God. If you are being guided by the spirit in these matters, and I believe you are, then you are simply playing your part, in Gods grand performance.

REJOICE and be filled with JOY, are these people not recieving what God has planned for them, as we all will?

Peace,
Chuck

[longhorn]

My ex-wife banned me, for what it's worth.   

Love in Christ

Longhorn

[jerry]

Why contention, Paul said arguments arise when poeple think they know more than they should,his answer was not to go further than the writen word.And that really is(to me)the best way to aproch someones opion.Some just want to argue over words when Jesus said this is how you will know my deciples they will have love for oneanother not knowledge.Loveing actions are the only things we can trust.So my questions is,should we build each other up with Love of knowledge or the knowledge of Love.....
Jerry

[chuckusa]

Hi all,

Ray just recently made a comment concerning a letter that made a lot of sense to me. It's really simple but so true.

He stated:

"One can't understand the scriptures, if one doesn't believe the scriptures."

For myself, I don't bother with things I don't believe in, so its interesting to me to contemplate why anyone else would. The only conclusion that I can come up with is that it is simply the work of darkness. Using the scriptures to cause contention or division, while maintaining a false image of a follower of God would be exactly in line with the adversaries tactics. How sad when you see people being used and they don't even know it. But I noticed they sure will ARGUE about it all....

Peace to all,
Chuck

[hillsbororiver]

Pride of "tolerance" it is interesting that some would say we should be tolerant of anyone who comes in the Forum because that is the place God has them at this time. In the past we have had some folks appear to have an air of superiority because of their "tolerance." This has sometimes led to some bitter divisions here.

I was reading somewhere else earlier that this problem has existed since the 1st Century church. 

Paul speaks of it here;

1 Corinthians 5


1) It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

2) And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3) For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4) In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6) Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7) Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8) Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9) I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

Most of us know what spiritual (as well as physical) fornication is.


Rev 2:20  Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

In the following parable we know Jesus is not really talking about people plucking out their eyeballs or cutting off body parts, we know this has a spiritual application, can you also see another application? One applying to the Body (Church) of Christ and it's members?

Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

There are many admonishments in both the Old and New Testaments that teach us that correcting a brother or rebuking an action or statement is or at should be, an act of love. 

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[chuckusa]

Hi Joe,

Good points. One cry for tolerance that has always angered me is the issue of "alternative lifestyles". Even my daughter is subjected to this in the schools, where books are being introduced to try and make a homosexual  "lifestyle" seem normal. They are being admonished to show "tolerance".

I'm sure most people agree with me in that I don't hate people who have this lifestyle, but I will never accept it as normal...even though I accept that it is all part of Gods plan. I mean, so is murder...but I don't "tolerate" that either. A friend of 30 years died recently of AIDS, and I was there until the end, but that doesn't mean that I tolerated his lifestyle, only that I loved him. I suppose that this is a part of the issue here, are we REQUIRED to "tolerate" someone that we love when they go against God...I say no.

Having a brick wall put in front of us, where we can go no further in that area has always been a part of the process of change for me. It has always shown me which direction I'm NOT being allowed to go.

I have had real experiences in my life where I have had to put that brick wall in front of someone and to stop them, only to see a great and wonderful change occur in them because of it. I believe that this forum, accomplishes the same thing. Its unfortunate that we cannot all be like minded in this area. When I was asked to leave a previous church I attended, I was hurt...but it was part of the chain of events that led me here...so in reality it was a wonderful and loving expression of God that led me to a higher level of understanding.

If I ever go against Gods word, I pray that I will be banned so fast it will be a new record for the forum. All my brick walls have been a blessing, in the end.

Also, sometimes I realize the things I write don't make any sense, and go on too long. If anyone feels that any of my posts are counterproductive, please ask that they be removed. I promise that all you will recieve from me is a prayer thanking God for having someone who cares enough to look after me as I progess to where God needs me to be, for the good of all.

Blessings to all,
chuck

[hillsbororiver]

Bobby speechless??!!? That will be the day 

Chuck,

I agree, you put it beautifully. If I go off the deep end I pray I will be pulled back up from a brother or sister too.

Thank you and may He grant you His Peace and Wisdom,

Joe

[MG]

Galatians 1
6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
10Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.


Galatians 5
7You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? 8That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9"A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be.

[hillsbororiver]

Hi MG,

Excellent, relevent verses, a while back I had brought up one of the smaller OT books that I believe speaks of an EUREKA! moment that all of us experience at one time or another or another, again and again as we grow in Him...........

Ezr 9:1  Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites.

Ezr 9:2  For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass.

Ezr 9:3  And when I heard this thing, I rent my garment and my mantle, and plucked off the hair of my head and of my beard and sat down astonished.

Ezr 9:4  Then were assembled unto me every one that trembled at the words of the God of Israel, because of the transgression of those that had been carried away; and I sat astonished until the evening sacrifice.

Ezr 9:5  And at the evening sacrifice I arose up from my heaviness; and having rent my garment and my mantle, I fell upon my knees and spread out my hands unto the LORD my God,

Ezr 9:6  And said, O my God, I am ashamed and blush to lift up my face to thee, my God: for our iniquities are increased over our head and our trespass is grown up unto the heavens.

Ezr 9:7  Since the days of our fathers have we been in a great trespass unto this day; and for our iniquities have we, our kings, and our priests, been delivered into the hand of the kings of the lands, to the sword, to captivity, and to a spoil, and to confusion of face, as it is this day.

Ezr 9:8 And now for a little space grace hath been showed from the LORD our God, to leave us a remnant to escape and to give us a nail in his holy place, that our God may lighten our eyes, and give us a little reviving in our bondage.

It is so easy to drift off sleepily, thinking we are secure and safe in our knowledge when in fact the old man, the old carnal nature, the desire to please and to be approved of men has encompassed us once again. Then our eyes are reopened and we see ourselves for what we are, that we are broken , poor and naked, realizing we of ourselves are nothing, the praise of others is less than worthless and then we are humbled enough to seek Him in all things.

His Peace and Wisdom to you all,

Joe

[Deborah-Leigh]

A sobering caution regarding contention for contentions sake.....Poverbs 6:16,19  ....These six things the Lord hates, indeed, seven are an abomination to Him.(and the seventh one being?) .....he who sows discord among his brethren......!

Arcturus

[Beloved]

 Arcturus

I have to AMEN your post since the same proverb came to mind when reading this thread.

Beloved   

[yashua1970]

Hello i just read all of the posts, and I have a question as well.

Paul stated in
Acts 17:2
And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 18:4
And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Acts 18:19
And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews.

Shouldn't we also do the same with those who don't understand the truths of God?

I know for myself how hard it was to "understand" at first. I didn't like religious institutions but thats where I was at, at the time.
And that was the last thing that I wanted was another place that was formed around a institution.
I think alot of people just have that mindset, I know I did.
but when one encounters such truth that is shared at this forum i think peoples brains start to go "tilt" "tilt" "tilt"
and they don't know how to act, or react.
I know that not everybody can be reasoned with peacefully, and I guess that is because "God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, and God will harden, whom He will harden"
and "It is God who works in you (and them) to will and to do of His good pleasure"

I think God just answered my Question.
I feel like a dunce.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi yashua1970

I think we are all loveable dunces in front of Gods awsome wisdom and power and we are loveable only because of Christ...

I like it that Paul reasoned with people and he did not ARGUE with them! ......from what I have seen here,and I am a newbie, there is much love and reason and wisdom and council and truth which is nothing to argue about! We are so blessed to be here....

Arcturus

[YellowStone]

Arcturus and yashua1970, well said!

I am sure you both know of the old saying: "it takes two to tango"

The only reason that there are arguements or heated debates on Bible-Truths is that apposing sides are trying to prove a point! Gosh darn, what point is there to prove?

Don't be mistaken, I used to always have to have the last word. I soon learned the easiest way to burn a bridge is to argue over something.

My point is, if one is walking with God then what could possibly be said by anyone that could upset that person. I mean it!

Neither God nor the Word of Truth needs us defending them; I mean how could they?   Rather, we must defend our own position with them both, by being very careful of what we say (sometimes saying nothing is enough) Honestly, our actions sometimes speak louder than words.

Unfortuantly I understand why the moderators a forced to put such restrictions on debating, etc; it's because many of us still have something to prove. (I am refering to absolutely no-one!!)

Guys and Gals, do we really need to be told that we cannot argue. We should know that already.

Finally, I would like to mention that for the most part, the forum has been extremely uplifting, positive and loving.

Who in this world could ask for more?

Love to you all

Darren

[hillsbororiver]

Many good questions and comments, what we must do in determining a response to opposing or conflicticting views is to first patiently discern the motivation of the person presenting this conflicting statement or question.

1Co 6:2  Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

Does this person approach us in a humble spirit with questions or do they have what we could term immature beliefs that are rooted in their previous "religeous" experience, or are they preaching an unsound doctrine? Should we give a podium to someone who is here to disrupt or divide? It is usually evident after a few posts whether or not someone is here to learn with us or is trying to teach us, if the questions appear to be legitimate we are obligated to answer in humility and patience, if they are here to teach us then our Lord has set an example.

It is true that Jesus did not scold or ridicule the sheep, but he was very direct with the so called teachers and leaders of heresy or false doctrines or hypocrisy.

Mat 23:28  Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Mat 23:29  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchers of the righteous,

Mat 23:30  And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

We all have different offices in the Body, not all of us are admonished to be teachers or evangelists, if He wills us to be either it will happen. What we are admonished is;

Pe 3:15  But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

This article is very helpful in clarifying how our Lord dealt with the teachers and self proclaimed leaders;


http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm

His Peace to you,

Joe