BACKSLIDING

[Deborah-Leigh]

Lets talk about this please.

Compare Judas.....He did not deny that he knew Jesus... he  betrayed Him. I think he will be in the second death. Is this presumptuous? Am I being judgemental? I heard Ray say (Ref Mobile Conference ) and as I understood, that King David will be in the second death Lake of Fire because he was not converted and in his dying breath asked that the blood of his enemies be spilled....Not Christ-like at all!... ...

Compare Peter...He denied that he knew Jesus but did not betray Him as Judus had done.( Does this then explain what backsliding is do you think?)....After acquiring the knowledge of the Truth,  Judas  deliberatedly went to betray Christ? This brings to  mind that knowledge of the Truth is no guarantee for salvation!....It is not sufficient to know Jesus we have to be like Jesus!

The difference between the many called and the chosen few as I understand it,  is FAITHFULNESS not knowledge....Our faith is therefore tested is it not?....and is "more precious than gold...."....

How do you see this?



Arcturus.

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Arcturus,

No, I think it is a safe bet Judas will experience the second death, more surprisingly (to me at least when it was first revealed) is so will John the Baptist.

Mat 11:11  Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Only those who came after the death and resurrection of Jesus have the New Covenant, the better Promise.

Judas betrayal had more to do with his lust of being in an earthly kingdom led by a conquering earthly messiah rather than a hatred of Jesus or a need for a quick 30 bucks.

Judas did not have a clue as to our Lord's meaning when He stated repeatedly that His Kingdom was not of this earth, Judas believed he could force the hand of Jesus, get Him to use the supernatural powers at His disposal (Judas probably witnessed thousands of miracles) to throw off Rome and set up an earthly kingdom. When Judas realized this wasn't going to happen he promptly hung himself.

Judas did not hate Jesus, he did not believe His Words, thought he knew better, wanted earthly gain, the things of this world, the praise of men, he wanted power and authority, he was pure carnality.

Interesting topic.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe     

[buddyjc]

Don't ya'll know that Judas is the Anti-Christ?  At least that's what I heard a pastor say.  He believed Judas would be reincarnated in the future to become the anti-christ.  They'll believe anything!  Anyway, I would think that Judas will have to go through the second death, but then again, we all have to go through the 'second death.'  Know what I mean? 

Brian

[Deborah-Leigh]

Joe

This is a MAJOR revelation!   Some questions I would like you to answer please.

Does the Father of faith, Abraham , Gods friend also go to the second death? Do the Prophets, Elija, Elisha Moses join in the second death too?

I know Jesus refered to Servants (Hirelings) and Sons (Heirs) Are the Servants OT and the Heirs NT?

I have fastened my seat belt to get ready for your answer. I do not mind being blown away!...again!

Your description of Judas rings true in my heart especially as Ray points out that Judas kissed Jesus pationately as his identifying kiss that was not a peck on the cheak.

Thank you for sharing what you know.

Arcturus 

[Kat]

Hi Arcturus,

I think one thing that must be considered here,
is that neither Peter nor Judas had been given the Spirit at that time.
It was not until after His resurrection,
that they received the Holy Spirit and their eyes were opened to understand the truth.

Joh 16:13  When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

Act 15:8  God, who knows everyone's heart, showed them he approved by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us.
v.9  He made no distinction between them and us, because he cleansed their hearts by faith.  v.11  We certainly believe that it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ that we are saved, just as they are."

Eph 2:8  For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Christ must be in you, as you must be in Him, to be one of the chosen elect.

Col 1:27  God did this because he wanted you Gentiles to understand his wonderful and glorious mystery. And the mystery is that Christ lives in you, and he is your hope of sharing in God's glory.

1Pe 5:10  After you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you in Christ Jesus to his eternal glory, will restore you, establish you, strengthen you, and support you.

Hope I helped with these scripture.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Kat

I was hoping to see you on this thread....

You make a valid point....NO ONE had been given the Spirit at that time.....The Spirit came UPON some of them...Elisha and the robe of Elija in symbolic reference UPON not WITHIN as you point out in Col 1 :27..."Christ lives IN you"


The Chosen are by election by God....Marie posted a very good slant on this I have still to ponder....Ref SLAVES TO SIN...General Discussions.

What Joe writes is begging the question....Are the OT Prophets the Servants and the NT faithful the SONS. I say yes...am looking for the second witness.....am hoping Gary will come up with something good as well as others who will be thinking about this subject.....

Thanks for your contribution

Arcturus 

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Brian

Good news....in fact great news ...we do not all have to go through the second death which is the Lake of Fire. Some of us are going through the salting of fire NOW and will miss the second time around   I am praying that I am in that category! ie NOT in the second time round.

Jesus advised us all to ask and pray that we Luke21:36..Keep awake....watch at all times and pray that you may be ACCOUNTED WORHTY....to stand in the presence of the Son of Man"

I take this to mean...Judas will fall on his face when he sees his Lord full of Glory...I do not think he will be able to  stand up straight he will be so overwhelmed to see Jesus as King and ALIVE and well!.....Imagine it!  I think Judas will be totally on his face!...mumbling through tears...I thought you were dead....I thought I was guilty....HOW can YOU possibly forgive me! OH...what... YOU ALREADY DID!...Sob sob sob and big big tears of overwrought emotion I imagine will be hitting Judas when he wakes up agian

For me the question has been, Salting of fire NOW or Lake of Fire latter?....I have been neutral on this question....Who wants pain now?  So, due to your post I can now place on record.. may God's  Will be done  which will be done anyway the only difference now with me is that I agree, I surrender, and I know that I haven't a clue what lies ahead that I am agreeing to now...  I hope it is only tiny flecks of microscopic salt of fire now rather than a HUGE lake later! There I am on record! I have been dodging this  and where do I stand? pressure to reply, for a few weeks now with even knowing what Jesus says in the Scripture...Pray Now that you will be accounted worthy to stand later!...

I believe that  part of being human is experiencing that GOD can take me through ANYTHING!....Well here goes..... Note. This is not a challenge to God....just a very shy squeek.....a very small and maybe most unwise squeek.....I am not trying to get up in rank and file into Gods Kingdom. I just want to bypass the Lake....know God better and live a life in the fullness of the faith OF Christ.....in Him as Gods scriptures point out.....Yes I desire that!....YES!

Has anyone else felt this pressure to choose....pain now or later?...I know I do not choose...God designed my choice and knew before I did what I would decide!....There...I am grateful to God for this but still feel a little uncertain about just how much purification lies ahead!...Feels like I am on my way to Calvery!....Is there anyone out there who knows this place I am in?.....

I think I know what you mean....first death in Adam....second death the carnality of flesh.... That would make the lake of fire the third death if I get your drift Brian..... I perfer to keep things simple  though!....First death, ...Christ crusified....Second death....you don't want to be there!

Arcturus

[Kat]

Hi Arcturus,

I have been rereading Ray's article 'Exposing the Secret Rapture, and this what Ray says.

http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm ----------------------------

Furthermore, it may be deduced that the dead and the living are raised and honored together if we look very carefully at Rev. 11:15-18. The seventh and last trumpet (verse 15) trumpets and God's indignation arrives (Ver. 18) and it is the time to: "... give their wages to Thy slaves, the prophets ..." I believe we would have to concede that these include the prophets of old who have long been put to repose. So then, these prophets would be rising from the dead along with the living being gathered to Christ at this seventh and last trump, "... in the presence of our Lord Jesus with all His saints" (I Thes. 3:13). Lk. 13:28-30 also confirms the fact that, "... whenever you should be seeing Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and ALL the prophets in the kingdom of God ..."

I am certainly not claiming this as a major proof, only as a possibility. Even if these "lamenting and gnashing their teeth" are those not raised until the great white throne of judging, the indication is that these prophets will already be "in the kingdom of God" (Ver 28).

As to the statement that the gathering of Christ's elect in Matt 24 is only the living, I will suggest that it doesn't say living or dead. However, the word "elect" by itself certainly can include the dead, but I know of no law of grammar that could make the word "elect," exclude the dead. These references regarding the gathering of Christ's elect do no state specifically whether any of them are alive or dead. However, as Rev. 11:18 includes both the "small and great," and particularly "the prophets," and "the saints," it would have to include BOTH. The "prophets" have mostly died many centuries ago (yet they will be gathered here), and the "saints" include both dead and many saints who will be alive at Christ's coming. So clearly, both (the living and the dead), are included in the same event.

-------------------------------------------------------------

I am still studying this subect.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Deborah-Leigh]

Kat

Thank you for sharing.

That makes absolute sence to me. Yes I agree!

That is what the Scripture says...Yes!   

...and only God will know who He calls/draggs.   As I understand...Only Jesus knows His own...not even Paul took for granted that He belonged.....

I quote Ray...Jesus knows who are His. We don't. We hope. We believe...He has not told any of us for an absolute certainty that we will not fall or fail. There are those whom God will predestine to start out doing His will but who will be predestined before the end of their lives to fail. That is why God has given us such Scriptures as  Heb 10 : 26-29 and 1 Cor 9 :27.....unquote

So backsliding is predestined....what do you think?..in as much as God does not MAKE us backslide...we volunteer to!...HE knows who will backslide and who won't backslide because HE CAUSES our outcomes and we volunteer our direction. ..  I know for sure that God alone changes us and HE alone is able to make all grace abound towards us 2 Cor 9 : 8 And God is able to make all grace, every favor and earthly blessing come to you in abundance, so that you may always and under all circumstances and whatever the need be self-sufficient, possessing enough to require no aid or support and furnished in abundance for every good work and charitable donation) AMPL....am sure that there are better translations!..but this makes the point....GOD IS ABLE we are UNable....!

Arcturus  ...in learning ..and back to the drawing board for me to re-study the Myths of free will!..We SIN VOLUNTARILY..DO WE ALSO BACKSLIDE VOLUNTARILY??

[orion77]

Hello Arcturus,

For me, I cannot say who will or will not partake of the second death, be in the lake of fire.  I will leave that to the righteous judge, seeing He knows the intent of our hearts and minds.

Judas was of the mindset of having a earthly reign of Christ, purely carnal not seeing the inner spiritual truths that are hidden from the world.  And it is widely accepted today of those waiting for a earthly reign, not seeing that He reigns in the hearts and minds of mankind, a Spiritual kingdom. 

If that is all Christ is, a physical King, that would not be much of a purpose for God.  He would just come here and whip all of our hides and be done with it, take control and force His rules upon us.  His kingdom is far greater, a spiritual kingdom through an inner creation molding us into His own character.  Now, that is a huge undertaking that far surpasses our understanding, yet His ways are higher than ours.  Conquering the hearts and minds of mankind, now that truly takes a King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

When God does something, it will not return to Him void.  What is the greatest gift He has given us?  You are right in saying 'faith', and it is more than just knowing that He is the Christ.  Judas knew that, the devil knows it, and the vast majority knows it.  So, what is this faith so preciously given to us, that He would go so far to humble Himself to the flesh, to show us the Way through many miracles and the suffering He bore on the cross?  This is a question that we all need to search for, seeing that God loves us that much, He deserves it.

Faith is like a seed, and as any farmer knows, one cannot plant a green seed, it must be dead to produce a harvest.  Here is the importance of growing from knowing Him crucified to being crucified with Christ.  Now, that seed will grow and produce good fruit.  That seed and fruit must be protected and cultivated, if not the weeds will take it over and become worthless.  Faith without works is dead.  That faith given is tested through many trials and tribulations.  God is working in the obedient followers of Christ.  We are very blessed and privledged to suffer for His namesake.  We are in good company.


(Psa 80:14 LITV)  O God of Hosts, we beg You, return! Look down from Heaven and see and visit this vine,

(Psa 80:15 LITV)  and the vineyard which Your right hand has planted, and on the son You made strong for Yourself.

(Psa 80:16 LITV)  It is burned with fire, cut down; they perish at the rebuke of Your face.

(Psa 80:17 LITV)  Let Your hand be on the man of Your right hand; on the son of man whom You have made strong for Yourself.

(Psa 80:18 LITV)  So we will not backslide from You; make us live, and we will call on Your name.

(Psa 80:19 LITV)  O Jehovah, God of Hosts, turn us again! Cause Your face to shine, and we will be saved.


God bless,

Gary

[hillsbororiver]

For me, I cannot say who will or will not partake of the second death, be in the lake of fire.  I will leave that to the righteous judge, seeing He knows the intent of our hearts and minds.

Gary,

Without judging anyone, but with the understanding that all who died before the death and resurrection of our Lord were still under the Old Covenant, the Law of Moses, death.

If Abraham, David and John the Baptist are not yet "saved" I think it is a given Judas isn't either.

Israel's opportunity for redemption does not come "until the fulness of the Gentiles come in."

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob

Chapter 11 of Romans is very informative on this subject.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[Andy_MI]

Hi all,

Just a thought I had while reading the posts:

What about the saints who were raised after Jesus' resurrection?

Mat 27:51-53 VW
(51)  Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
(52)  and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
(53)  and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and were manifest to many.

Joe said:

Without judging anyone, but with the understanding that all who died before the death and resurrection of our Lord were still under the Old Covenant, the Law of Moses, death.

Wouldn't the above verses negate this statement?  They died before the death an resurrection of our Lord. And would it be too presumptious to think that they had the oppurtunity to believe on the Lord after they were raised?

What about Judas? Didn't he repent after he betrayed the Lord? Wouldn't that mean that he was forgiven?

Mat 27:3-4 VW
(3)  Then Judas, His betrayer, seeing that He was condemned, repented and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
(4)  saying, I have sinned by betraying innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? You see to it.

Also I only see the one's whos names are not written in the Lambs book of life cast into the lake of fire at the second resurrection. 

Rev 20:11-15 VW
(11)  And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heavens fled away. And there was found no place for them.
(12)  And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God. And books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, out of the things which were written in the books.
(13)  And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one, according to their works.
(14)  And Death and Hades were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
(15)  And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire.

Any comments?

Peace,

Andy

[hillsbororiver]

Hi all,

Just a thought I had while reading the posts:

What about the saints who were raised after Jesus' resurrection?

Andy,

Do you believe they were raised with incorruptable bodies and ascended into heaven?

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

What Joe writes is begging the question....Are the OT Prophets the Servants and the NT faithful the SONS. I say yes...am looking for the second witness.....am hoping Gary will come up with something good as well as others who will be thinking about this subject.....



Arcturus 

Hello Arcturus,

The following is from Ray's paper "The 12 Truths" http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm

This is from # 9,

Turn to Hebrews 11. Although Elijah is not mentioned by name in this chapter, he is, nonetheless, included, as he certainly was "...OF the PROPHETS" (Verse 32). What do the Scriptures say regarding the present condition of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham & Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, and the prophets, of whom Elijah was one? Are they alive today? Did they receive the promises. Are they in heaven? Hold on, cause I'm about to knock your socks off:

"These ALL DIED IN FAITH, NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES... For they that say such things declare plainly that they SEEK a country... they DESIRE a better country, that is a HEAVENLY... And ALL THESE, having obtained a good report through faith, [here comes the second witness that they are dead and not in heaven]... RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE: God having provided something better thing FOR US, that THEY without US should NOT BE MADE [future tense, not past tense—it hasn't happened YET] perfect" (Verses 13-14, 16, 39-40).

WOW!

I would venture to say that not a thousand people alive on earth today have ever seen or had the above Scripture explained to them. Yet this Scripture is in perfect harmony with ALL other Scripture, but TOTALLY CONTRADICTS ALL CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE.

ALL of the men and women of faith, the fathers, the patriarchs, and prophets are DEAD.

ALL of them died "looking for a country & home afar off," which they never received.

ALL these received a "good report," but they received NO PROMISES.

ALL these "desired a heavenly" home, but they NEVER RECEIVED IT.

ALL these will remain dead until WE are given OUR promises.

OUR promise is better: "God having provided some BETTER THING FOR US."

WE are to become "perfect" Col. 4:12; Eph. 4:13; Gal. 3:3; Phil. 3:15; Col. 1:28; etc,

WE are to become "perfect" BEFORE the saints of old; BEFORE Moses & Elijah.

THEY are not only made perfect AFTER us, but are made perfect THROUGH US!

Not even John the Baptist is as great as the very least in the Kingdom of God (Matt. 11:11).

Grace was not given to save the saints of old. Grace came by JESUS CHRIST, not by Moses, neither to nor for Moses (John 1:17). Hebrews 11, speaking of ALL the saints that were before us clearly declares that, " for they without [Gk: 'apart from'] US should NOT be made perfect [or 'complete'].

Hebrews was written at least a whole generation after the crucifixion and resurrection of our Lord, and at that time the saints of old had not yet received their promises, so guess what? They are all still dead in their graves awaiting the Second Resurrection, as they cannot be made perfect or complete except though those who come up in the First resurrection. And no one is ever made "complete" except through Jesus Christ (Col. 2:10).

Have you not read:

"Unto whom it was revealed, that NOT unto themselves, but unto US ['Now ALL these things happened unto them for examples, and they are written for OUR admonition, upon whom the ends of the eons are come' I Cor. 10:11] they did minister the things, which are now reported unto YOU by them that have preached the gospel unto YOU with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. Wherefore gird up the loins of YOUR mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the GRACE that is to be brought unto YOU [not 'them'—they DIED not receiving the promises made to them] at the revelation of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:12-13).

Jesus Christ is the "wave sheaf" and the "firstfruit," but the saints and patriarchs of old were not "firstfruits" at all. Jesus, not they, was the FIRST of the firstfruitst" (I Cor. 15:20& 23), and WE, not they, are also "firstfruits" (James 1:18 & Rev. 14:4). When will we believe the Scriptures? The FIRST to be called will be the LAST TO BE SAVED, and the LAST to be called will be the FIRST TO BE SAVED (Matt. 19:30 and 20:16). My, what we can learn when we begin to obey the commandments of GOD.

All Scripture is inspired, and all Scripture is true, but no one Scripture fully explains and interprets itself. Remember that should someone wants to show you from "a" single Scripture that there is no end to the lake of fire, for example.

[Kat]

Hi Andy,

I think I see what your saying.

The saints of Jesus' day, died before His death and resurrection, so could not be in the kingdom.
But they were resurrected back to physical life, after Christ had risen.
So now they were able to receive the Holy Spirit and Christ could live in them,
and if they were one of the chosen, would be in the kingdom.

I had never looked at it that way before.

They were so close, lived at the time of Jesus,
but died before they could receive His Spirit.
So God, in His astounding love for those few, miraculously brought them back to life,
to give them what they just barely missed.

How great is our God 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Andy_MI]

Hi all,

Just a thought I had while reading the posts:

What about the saints who were raised after Jesus' resurrection?

Andy,

Do you believe they were raised with incorruptable bodies and ascended into heaven?

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe

Sorry Joe, you missed my point... You said:

Only those who came after the death and resurrection of Jesus have the New Covenant, the better Promise.

That's the point I'm trying to make,,, since there was a resurrection of "Old covenant" saints at the time of Christ's resurrection.. wouldn't that quaify them for the "New covenant?"  Do you see what I'm saying? It Has nothing to do whether they were raised incorruptable.. or if they assended,,, (that's a study I'll have to do before I can digress into that). But I just was thinking that they would have been given oppurtunity to receive Jesus while alive and resurrected.  Wouldn't that be qualifaction for old covenant saints to receive the new covenant promise?  We also don''t know the names of those who were raised either,, Maybe John the Baptist was among them.. Do we know for sure?

Also I think we need to be careful who we judge to be destined to the lake of fire.

That's why I brought up the verses about Judas repenting.  I don't think we have the qualifacations of be the judge of Judas's heart.

You also said:

No, I think it is a safe bet Judas will experience the second death, more surprisingly (to me at least when it was first revealed) is so will John the Baptist.

Do you know that for a fact?  Do you know his heart? and do you know the Lord's plans and intentions for Judas? Only those whos names are not written in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.  Do you know if his name is not in the book of life.

Rev 20:15 VW
(15)  And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire.

I'm thinking that we need to be careful about judging who's who in the lake of fire.  Only God knows the heart. And His Plan and Will is perfect, not ours.

Peace,

Andy

[Andy_MI]

Hi Andy,

I think I see what your saying.

The saints of Jesus' day, died before His death and resurrection, so could not be in the kingdom.
But they were resurrected back to physical life, after Christ had risen.
So now they were able to receive the Holy Spirit and Christ could live in them,
and if they were one of the chosen, would be in the kingdom.

I had never looked at it that way before.

They were so close, live at the time of Jesus,
but died before they could receive the Spirit.
So God, in His astounding love for those few, miraculously brought them back to life,
to give them what they just barely missed.

How great is our God 

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

Yes! thank you Kat!

I have sure a hard time conveying my thoughts and you cleared up what I was trying to say very nicely,

Bless your heart Kat

[longhorn]

Well Dangit, I guess I was pre-destined to backslide.  Oh well, hello Lake of Fire.

Love in Christ

Longhorn

[Kat]

Thanks Joe,

That is what I was looking for,
but I could not remember where it was.
That makes it clear, no one that came before Christ will be in the kingdom.
It takes all of us working together, to come to understanding of a thing.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[hillsbororiver]

Thanks Joe,

That is what I was looking for,
but I could not remember where it was.
That makes it clear, no one that came before Christ will be in the kingdom.
It takes all of us working together, to come to understanding of a thing.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

Kat,

You are very welcome.

There are 2 judgements, the elect in their lifetime, and everyone else at The White Throne Judgement.

Read Hebrews Chapter 11, the OT Prophets were not given the same promise (Old Covenant) as those who came after the death (sacrifice) and resurrection of Jesus.

Andy,

I certainly agree and can see (as Kat wrote) that those who were raised from the dead at the time of Jesus' resurrection were given the opportunity to receive the "better promise," the New Covenant, but they were still "in the flesh" and were yet imperfect, they were not raised to immortality.

Judas died before Christ did, are you saying Judas was one of those who were resurrected at the time of Jesus' resurrection? John the Baptist also died before Jesus, that is why it is written that the least in the Kingdom is greater than he, John the Baptist was still under the Old Covenant.

This statement by Jesus would have to be untrue if John the Baptist was raised and given the New Covenant, unless of course he backslid and followed his flesh after his resurrection, but that is way too much speculation for me.

Luk 7:28  For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

Kat, I love your statement "It takes all of us working together, to come to an understanding of a thing." It is so true, I am always thankful for the iron sharpening iron as we study together in this Forum.

His Peace and Wisdom to you all,

Joe