forgiveness

[mongoose]

Sandy's post on another thread brought a question I have to mind...but I didn't want to hijack her thread so I'm starting a new one.

I can see how you can forgive (or try to forgive) people who you currently know or who you remember really well.  And in some ways I can see where one could feel that they were making progress towards forgiving someone based on the current attitude you have towards this person.

My question is this: what about someone who you barely remember and won't ever see?  There is a guy from my very distant past who hurt me a lot in very bad ways.  But, I'm not sure how to forgive him or if I have or need to or what.  It's all very confusing.  He seems vague in my memory, like I'm not totally sure he's real (he was but what I mean is that I feel no emotion at all connected to him or my memories of these events).  So, this perplexes me.  Have I forgiven him or begun to?  I don't know and I have no idea how to tell.

Is this weird?  Any suggestions or advice?

mongoose

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi mongoose

for me the carnal mind plays exactly these kind of tricks on us. Have I, haven't I?,,,,,,tricks.....

Talk to Jesus. He hears your thoughts and tell Him you release this person into His hands and ask Jesus to heal your concerns, doubts and memories......thats what I do....It helps me and when my mind tells me I have not forgiven, then I have Christ as my witness who says otherwise and I trust Jesus to keep healing me.....It is a process....for me anyway!

Hope this helps

Arcturus

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi again Mongoose

Also I think we should not confuse forgiveness with the healing of our wounds. Jesus forgave at the cross and died of the wounds. .....we have to do the same not in a pity party way or a feel sorry for me mind set...not that you suggest such a thing but from my own pain I realize that I am living with pain and wounds inflicted on me long past I have forgiven the persons who have hurt me.....I know only Jesus can heal and set me free in His time....and I accept that it is difficult for us all but it is worth while to learn endurance, patience and long-suffering.....in peace and trust....

Hope this helps

Arcturus

[MG]

edited

[vneverov]

I understand forgiveness as a way of understanding.  When we understand why someone does something evil, then we can't really hold anything against that one person.  For the ultimate reason lying behind every evil deed is sin.  Since people do not have free will and make decisions based on certain things that have happened to them, then we must understand why a person commits such horrible acts such as rape, murder, assault etc.  We must remember these people don't know any better, their acts are the result of their sad life.  I think that was why Jesus was so forgiving.  He knew that the sinners he conversed with had no say in being the way they were; rather it was because of their life's circumstance that they turned out this way.  Jesus understood everyone, even the Pharisees, which was why he knew what they were thinking all the time.  Hence, when Jesus died on the cross his ability to forgive was not some miraculous deed sent from above, rather a result of His logic and understanding.  He knew exactly why He was dying and why these people were killing him.  And in my life I find myself forgiving others without even thinking about it, just because I know exactly why they did what they did.  Understanding someone isn't hard once all circumstances are considered i.e. lack of free will.  So, you don't really have to remember the person to understand he must have done something evil simply because he is a prisoner in this world...But we are free!!!!!     Our freedom is from uncertainty, from guilt, from doubts.... You must not let doubt make you think that you have not yet forgiven someone, just think about it logically and you just might find that there is no need to look for some sort of phenomenal sign of forgiveness.  It's all in your understanding of the world and its sin.

Christ be with you,
Viktoriya

[Deborah-Leigh]

I have been pondering this issue about forgiveness......We are cautioned....."Forgive us our trespasses as WE forgive...."

But..
To have a quick responce time to forgive is good but it is the pain that doesn't go away and that is the sore part that puts pressure against...TRUSTING that God can take care of me and that I do not have to retaliate or take things into my own hands..., and this is the temptation.... leaving God to be God is .not possible without Gods help!...and when Gods help doesn't arrive when we need it most, (like when we are being raped) then the pressure is really on to do something about it!....Get angry, kill the assailant...take the law into your own hands and this is not Christs way.....God help ....and have mercy!....Jesus did nothing against those who killed Him. He prayed for them!

.... It has been revealed to me that if I or anyone else is acting in the way of Christ, it is because of God alone... .......I  really do need HIM.....I can do nothing right at all without Him...and if I am getting anything right at all it is because of Him...!

It has been shown to me that if God lifts His hand off me, I will and can turn into a beast in a heart beat!.....That is what I have found out.......I know I am capable of all evil at all times in any moment if God doesn't prevent me......Pretty bad hey?...Do any of you feel the same way..? Have any of you seen this road before?....in the scriptures somewhere perhaps? Please let me know...

Arcturus

[mongoose]

It has been shown to me that if God lifts His hand off me, I will and can turn into a beast in a heart beat!.....That is what I have found out.......I know I am capable of all evil at all times in any moment if God doesn't prevent me......Pretty bad hey?...Do any of you feel the same way..? Have any of you seen this road before?

I know that I am totally capable in my carnal self of killing someone without remorse and actually enjoying it.  No, I have never done that....but only because God prevented it.     I know that I am nothing good without Him.  I am more than just capable of evil....I would enjoy it.  Actually, I did used to enjoy it.  Was in a gazillion fights (several a day) and I loved hurting the people I was fighting with.  I did a lot of bad things and hurt people on purpose.     After I stopped fighting but before God started really changing me, I used to wonder a lot what was wrong with me.  I felt like a freak, somehow deranged or something that I could be so violent and like it so much...but I think a lot of people must be this way if they will take a close look at themselves and admit it. 

Since He started working on me, I can't believe how different I am.  I didn't deliberately do anything and didn't want it.  I resisted, planted my feet, shook my fist at Him and said no.  That didn't have any effect.  It seems that when He wants to change someone, there is nothing to be done to stop it.  And I'm glad for that.  Thank God that He is in control.  I still know that inside the old me who loves to hurt and fight is there.  But there is this restraint....and every time I start to think that way He breaks my heart again.  I find myself loving people and wanting to take care of them or just smile and be kind to them.  Me?  I can't believe how different I am from what I was before.  It boggles my mind how far He has brought me.  And it comforts me.  He has given me a lot of peace and joy.  It seems like every year I am a bit happier regardless of my external circumstances, a bit more settled and confident in Him.  I pray that it will continue.  That's the one thing that scares me the most...I don't want Him to let me go back to the way I was.

mongoose

[MG]

Sometimes I'm afraid I'll go back and then I think of the Red Sea closing behind them and they couldn't go back even when they wanted to. I think God closes the way behind us.

[chuckusa]

Hi,

Yes, that is a great post Mongoose. I understand what you are saying. We ALL do this, but some to a greater or lesser degree.

It all comes down to awareness of sin. When God makes us truly aware of sin, we change, and we don't go back. When you see someone wavering back and forth, that comes from their own efforts to resist and that never works for long. With this awareness, comes pain and suffering, we do have to "pay" for our progression.

As far as ever going back, I think Bobby is right, if you ever found yourself back in those old situations it wouldn't be pleasant. In fact that is how I often guage where I am, by how it feels to even contemplate going back to my old ways. The more offensive I find those old sins, the better I feel as I want to distance myself from that, and anyone who still does those things. I lost a lot of friends implementing that standard.

It's true MG, I thank God that he does close those old paths behind us. I've even tried to go back a few times, for some dumb reason... and the answer was always NO.

Just some thoughts.

Love, Chuck

[gmik]

Hi. Very good posts.

It has been shown to me that if God lifts His hand off me, I will and can turn into a beast in a heart beat.--Arcturus

(Boy is that true!)

Also, as Viktoriya mentioned, we may not FEEL like we have forgiven but why not take it by faith. " I believe the bible, it says i must forgive, so I forgive according to the word not by the way I feel!!"

I have also done the "want to want to"  In other words, my flesh says "I dont wanna forgive them", but my heart says "but I want to want to forgivethem".

When my sister in law was going thru her divorce, she simply couldnot forgive the ex (at least that was her feelings).  So she started to pray for him as her enemy-eventually when she remarried, she "felt" like she had forgiven him.  I believe now she had really already forgiven him.

When we pray Gods Will over someones life and pray for good things to happen in their lives, that changes our attitudes.  I don't think you can pray honestly for someone very long before you really want and believe what you are saying.

Blessings,
gena

[Deborah-Leigh]

Gena, Chuck, Mongoose and EVERYONE READING THIS

I really like what you are all saying!

I am in a situation right now where I am being PERSECUTED BIG TIME.  I have been shut out of my job today, and this has happened because the Company has sided against the law and against me. You may say, well God is removing you and yes I agree.

Here is my situation. If I expose them then the one person who is bringing this into effect against me, stands to loose their job and possibly marriage too......Should I expose them and risk the fire in my heart to see them possibley destroyed as a family? or should I not expose them?

Who am I if I expose them? 

Who am I if I do not?

I would really appreciate to recieve some scripture here. I have already forgiven them and I really do not desire for them to be harmed. I think I should do nothing that will result in them getting hurt no matter how guilty they can not see they are. I  can see that they do not know what they are doing....... It could hurt their family terribly if I act. If I do not act and recieve the full impact of what is happening against me, I do not want to come under a false sence of holiness or Christlikeness. There is One who is Christ, that is Jesus!....

Hey I just discovered another HERESY through all this! Strongs Concordance says Christ means annointed and I have been duped to accept that we are little Christs. The Church is big on teaching about annointing. Haven't you heard them say, that preacher is annointed or you are annointed or  worse...you have lost your annointing. That is how they treated me....as if I had lost a so called annointing..... NO WAY! THERE IS ONE WHO IS CHRIST AND THAT IS JESUS!....we can imitate Him only. Can the imitation of real currency be real currency? NO WAY!
Not from what I have seen written in this forum....Hey everyone...you are real branches and Christ Jesus is the real vine!

I know God will show me who I am and who He is making me to be through this.....I know that who I am IS NOT who He is making me to be.....

Arcturus..... in persecution

[gmik]

Wow.  Prayers going up for you.

I can't remember if I shared this before.  Anyway:

5 years ago my husband put his hand on a student and pulled him back into the classroom.  The kid yelled & screamed like he had been hurt.  Now, my husbands class had witnessed the whole thing.  But the student went to the principal & showed him red marks on his arm.

Well, after school that day, my husband went to the kids house to talk to the parents.  They werenot at home so my husband told the student to tell them he had stopped by.

That night we get a phone call from the POLICE!!.   Not only for touching the kid but for coming over to the house.  Of course the kids version was much different.

We had to go to the police station, get a lawyer, lose sleep, worry worry worry........

The schooll district altho believing my husbands story and the class of witnesses were afraid of a lawsuit so....they suspended him.   Now the Lord intervenes!!!!  My husband (Jerry) calls our old pastor to pray and Jerry totally forgave this family and asked for blessings on them.  I get home from work and jerry is crying and praising the Lord and is so happy-he doesn't care what legally happens he has been set free!!

NOW FOR THE LORD-- Next thing we know, if Jerry won't contest the matter-cause he had witnesses to stand up for him-the district gives him 1 year off with pay, he can retire with a buy out of $20,000 to boot,after the year offf, he can be on medical leave (which is more $ a month), and the student gets flunked for that year!!  Since my husband had taught for 32 years in the same district with an exemplary record, he took their offer.  We were flabbergasted but gave all the praise to the Lord.  The school & his classroom gave Jerry a big party with gifts etc.  It just all worked out so well.!

That was 5 years ago!!  At the time we thought Jerry had made several big boo-boo's and that the Lord bailed him out.  Now we know it was all God's will from beginning to end.

Arcturus, God will be with you thru this entire situation.  It is tough going thru it but the end result will bring peace to you and glory to our Lord.

Love,
gena

[Deborah-Leigh]

Gena

What a wonderful testemony you share. That is so powerful!

I have had the scripture come to my mind of the servant who pleaded with his master to let set him free of the huge debt he owed. The master conceeded and then this wicked servant went and demanded his debtors to repay him and he gave no mercy.

Matt 18 :  27,28...And his master's heart was moved with compassion, and he released him and forgave him cancelling the debt. 28 But that same attendant, as he went out, found one of his fellow attendants who owed him a hundred denarii and he caught him by the throat and said. Pay what you owe!

As Jesus tells this story the message to me is one I do not want to hear My Lord speak to me.

Matt 18 : 32  ...You contemptible and wicked attendant! I forgave and cancelled all that great debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 And should you not have had pity and mercy on your fellow attendant, as I had pity and mercy on you? 34 And in wrath his master turned him over to the torturers......if you do not freely forgive your brother from your heart his offenses.

THIS SCRIPTURE is restraining me! .....from what I can do!.....I can charge this "attendant" and he is guilty, and I have the witness on record.....He is unrepentant and is blind. Like Jerry, I can contest the matter! Gena, I do not want to contest it!....I do not want to harm this person because truly HE KNOWS NOT WHAT HE IS DOING! He has a family. His wife is a teacher. Their children are in the same schood as my son....If I bring against this man, what was brought against your Jerry....only then will he see and understand the seriousness of his errors....but by then it will be too late....I hear the Lord talking to me via your testimony! I truly do not want to be like the child who brought a kids version against you and had the police call you....I have lost my job because of this person and because of larger circumstances beyond him. If I lay a charge against him it will seriously harm him and his family...In my heart I KNOW he KNOWS NOT what he is doing....So Gena...I am forgiviing him because Jesus Christ is holding me back from being the beast that I can be. Jesus is giving me Himself as a source of forgiveness that He has already given to me. .....I have wounds inside my heart over this but a sence of peace at the same time....The man is blind.  I am going to fulfill my obligations as a professional. I have to  report the matter to the Council. This will not cause any harm to this man or his family. I have to do this because I am  bound by Statutary law to report such matters under penelty of loosing my licence....I am going to do that. Without malice, without predjudice and with gratitude that God has given me the above Scripture to guide and WARN me not to MOCK GOD. HE alone is preventing me. It hurts and I am grateful for HIS helping hand through your post, HIS SON, my source of forgiveness.....God has given me the wisdom to forgive and the council why I should forgive and the means to forgive....ALL HIM!

I am so comforted with your witness that God will be with me through this entire situation. Thank you for sharing your story. I will be advising the Council this week end and I feel peace .......Thank you for your prayers.........

May His peace continue to garrison and guard you!

Arcturus

[gmik]

Praise God Arcturus.  This is what the Body is about.  I am so glad this helped you.

God is Good
All the Time!

love,
gena

[jennie]

That forgiveness thing is a hard one to swallow. I can tell ya'll  that that is one of the hardest things in the world to do. I understand the dilemma with whether or not to expose. It is confusing and scary. My Michael was in a situation at a church we were at once. The pastor was having an affair with someone. there was taped evidence to back it up. The other woman was married also. She confessed all to her husband but the pastor where we were wouldn't acknowldege his actions. I am sure he liked his approx. $175,000 salary package! He didn't know that a tape existed. My Michael was in the altar one evening alone praying. The deacons were having what they called a "secret meeting". One of them came and got him out of his prayer time to go the conference room to let him listen to the tape and help them figure out how to keep this covered up. Meantime they had let the pastor know that there was a tape but it wouldn't matter. Michael wouldn't go along with the cover up and told the whole group that God was not in cover-ups and he would have no part of it himself. 2 whole families had been destroyed. It was heart breaking. At that time Michael was in a full time position at the church. Because he wouldn't go along with the coverup... we had to leave. I don't think we could have stayed anyway because we were already having our eyes and hearts opened by God. There was no longer a paycheck and we didn't know what we wre going to do. God provided for us. We questioned too whether we had made the right decision but God showed us down the road a ways that there was something far better for us. so , in our case it turned out okay. It is a hard place to be in but prayers are going up for the decision you make. Jennie

[Deborah-Leigh]

Jennie

That is so wonderful. Thank you for your prayers......In your case the pastor could not NOT KNOW he was in error.

In my case the man in question, who I have chosen not to charge,  I believe was acting like a fool without knowing what the consequences of his statements were. I think he will know by now because the persons who have stopped my work, one is a lawer I trust that he will have opened the eyes of the fool as his statements brush with tar their entire group.  That I do not press charges is due to mercy of understanding his ignorance at the time although it hurt and offended, I have forgiven him and his family.

I have had it on my heart to hope for the outcome that Gena and Jerry  experienced but I have been inspired to understand that each situation is unique and what the Lord is working at in me will be quite different to others even though I would hope for the same result as Gena!...I am being shown to hope in nothing that is not to the Glory of God....Just this afternoon as I was musing on the possible outcomes of the crisis I am in, a felt a caution that I should not be entertaining my imagination to the hope in self gratification.....Christ after all was crusified and He was not only pure and innocent, He was scorned and mocked. He hoped in only the Glory of God that was set before Him...

We have been to seek advice from friends of ours. He is a Lawyer and he advised us to put in writing that we do not accept the basis for the decision to stop my work. This simple advise is so appropriate and shows that we were being deviously lead into a trap had we not responded. I thank you for your prayers and no doubt this shows how God is involving you in this story to show you His will and His plan.  It is wonderful how God works. ...This does not mean that I expect a box of chocolates and roses as a result....Oh NO....I expect a scourging....and have been conforted with what Gena wrote about Jerry....."he doesn't care what legally happens".....You see jennie, in my case, if God wills it, this story I am experiencing could unfold into a major courtcase that can have National implications! This could even get the National Press involved and make this story very visible publically. .If that happens then it is Gods will. It can still happen or it can die out with not a ripple effect anywhere except in the scare ridges it is cutting open into my heart right now.
The man who I could press charges against who is insturmental in what is unfolding against me,  I believe to be ignorant. He is potentially guilty for crimina-injuria. In other words he did not bridle his mouth and said some really out of line things to me. I am not protecting him at all. He is a fool. I am forgiving him and not of my will but because it is in my heart by the grace, council and wisdom of God to do so....I REALLY believe he is A FOOL! not a sinner....as such as the Pastor in your case.

If I had been in the situation that you and your husband experienced I would hope to be guided also. Your Michael was in a full time position. Was this God's way fo dragging him out of the Church?  God gave him the courage not to bow to the idol of the Church or the job but to bow, trust and rely only on HIM.  You too share wonderful victory over Church and job....to HIS glory  As I see it, Michael's experience and no doubt the agony you both went through  of doing what is in right standing with God, I see was  a gift from God that  blessed  you both to have recieved in more ways than one!

I have asked God to bless the man who is a fool and his family. To forgive him. As for the others...may God forgive them too as He guides me to report to Council and refuse to accept their basis as valid for what they have done. Once this is done, I expect to be told to take my bags and get out of their premises.....That will be awful....humiliating, degrading and darnright painful....

God will be the mender of my broken heart....He is my council and advocate as surely as I percieve Him to have been to both your family and Gena's Thank you for your prayers. I have no doubt they are being answered

Arcturus.....in testing

[jennie]

I just know your situation will sort itself out. You follow that "still, small voice" inside you and know that even when you can't pray in words, God hears the groanings of your heart. I don't think anyone can tell you exactly what to do... you know the particulars of your situation. I hope you can somehow not let  judgement of anyone regarding  the decisions you make , get you down. I believe it was Jesus himself who told us to not judge unless we want the same judgement. I will keep praying for you to be covered by the very hand of God. When you've got that kind of bodyguard you don't much else do you?!!! Much love, Jennie

[Deborah-Leigh]

Wise words jennie, very wise words. Thank you! Yes of course....and it raises to my heart the words that if we show mercy then to us mercy will be shown.....

I am so grateful that God has given me to communicate and correspond with people who I may never meet in the flesh, who live in places I may never see with my eyes or visit in my flesh....to pray FOR ME.  God is doing a big work of humility in my soul right now through this....I am so very grateful Jennie.... God Bless you!...and yes....may God show me that I do not need anything else outside of HIM....I believe this to be the supreme gift!...the supremacy of Faith and the victory of Christ....that Jesus shares with His own...

Arcturus