Who is my brother? NO REALLY

[YellowStone]

Hello Arcturus my fellow sister in Christ

Perhaps the words of God himself will help you understand what CIY meant.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Are we to believe that although God created evil, that it was not for our ultimate good? Did God rather create evil for our spiritual detriment?

Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! [Let] the potsherd [strive] with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

I believe the above verse is quite profound. Will the evil question God why He made them so? Likewise, will we question God and pray that the evil in this world soon stop. Any that question, regardless of the motive; question the Maker of all and 'woe unto them.' Therefore, the evil in this world of which there is a lot, must therefore be of some good use even if we do not yet understand. Rather than praying for peace, I believe we should pray for wisdom so that we can learn of the spiritual truth behind the carnal lesson.

Isa 45:10  Woe unto him that saith unto [his] father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

It is so easy to question God as to why He allowed some of the most horrendous mass killings brought on by a few to take place; or the death of 100's in some natural disaster. Once again, this is not the question we should ask.

Isa 45:11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

Rather, it should take the form of: "Lord, I know your ways are higher than mine, but if it is your will, please help me understand how this evil can help me spiritually, so that I may not fall victim of my carnal understanding."

I believe with all my heart that if we see evil as distasteful, then it is as through carnal eyes; however, if we see evil as an opportunity for spiritual growth, then Satan has surely lost a foothold.

Please do not take this wrong Arcturus, it is only another point of view.

Love to you in Christ,
Your brother,
Darren

[Robin]

Hebrews 2:1-3
1Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him


Matthew 23:25-28
25Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

1 John 3:1-6
1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

John 8:33-36
33They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.


Matthew 19:17
17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good?No one is good but One, that is, God.But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

John 14:15
15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.

John 14:23
23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

John 15:10
10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

1John 2:3-6
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

1John 3:4-6
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

Matthew 13:41-43
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matthew 7:21-23
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

1 Corinthians 6:9,10
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


Galatians 5:19-21
19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelations 22:14-15
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Hebrews 10:28-29
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?

John 5:28-29
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


1 John 3:24
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

1 John 5:2,3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.


Luke 10:25-28
25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
26 He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?"
27 So he answered and said, " 'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,'[h] and 'your neighbor as yourself.
28 And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live."

Romans 2:12-16
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

1 Corinthians 15:34
34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.


Romans 3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

1 Timothy 6:11-14
11 But you, O man of God, flee these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, gentleness. 12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing


1 Peter 4:1-2
1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.


Titus 3:3
3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

1 Corinthians 6:11
11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Ephesians 5:26,27
26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.


Ezekiel 36:24-27
24For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

John 5:14
14Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.

John 15:3
3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Romans 6:5-7
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.


Hebrews 10:22
22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Titas 2:11
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Hebrews 2:1-3
1Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;


Mark 10:26-30
26And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
27And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
28Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Matthew 5
48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

1 Peter 1
14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

1 Peter 1
22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Philippians 3
13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.




We have a high calling. We press on toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. God has used much evil in my life that causes suffering that puts to death the lusts of the flesh. His truth sets me free. He sanctifies and cleanses his church with the washing of water by the word. We are to be presented spotless and blameless. We are to be holy and perfect.

God showed me the high calling which showed me my beast. He gives me faith to say what is impossible for me is possible with God.

Mark 7
20And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23All these evil things come from within, and defile the man

I am accountable for the evil which comes from my heart, but it is God who gives me a new heart.


Ezekiel 36
26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

2 Corinthians 3:3
Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.


Arcturus has many times pointed out the absolute and the relative. In my understanding Kat is pointing out the absolute. Everything she says is absolutely true. In my life though I am going through the process of being saved. I am experiencing the death of the carnal mind that died in Christ on the cross. I am experiencing the separation from the world. I am experiencing the destruction of the idols of my heart. I am being conceived.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Darren

I answered to what Ciy wrote. What was written is what was responded to. If what is written is not what is meant then what is the use of communication.

What you wrote is what you meant no doubt. I see nothing good in evil that is why we overcome evil with good. Where sin abounds grace abounds much more.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Deborah-Leigh]

MG

thank you for your response and the reminder on Absolute v/s Relative perspective. This is a timely clarification and is appreciated.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[YellowStone]

Arcturus may I please respond  

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

You say: " I see nothing good in evil..." but by whose eyes are you looking through?

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Arcturus, we know that God's ways are higher than ours. If God saw that evil was not only good, but VERY good, who would dare call the potter mistaken. (ref. Isa 45:9)

I do not think for a second that this is what you are meaning.

However, your words say differently.

Love to you in Christ,
Your brother,
Darren

[ciy]

Darren

I agree.  You are saying what I was saying. 

Arcturus,

please take no offense, but it was the tree of good and evil.  God created evil for good.  The evil in you is put there, so to speak by God, only God can purge it.  Amazing how Jesus is the lamb, the serpent, and the lion and Satan is the wolf in sheep's clothing (lamb), the serpent, and the lion.

I love ya'll.
CIY

[Deborah-Leigh]

Convoluted takes on a whole new meaning for me now! From experience I see what that word means now!

Jesus is the serpent! Give me a break!

[YellowStone]

I agree Arcturus, I cannot make that connection either. 

CIY, we are told that God created Christ first over all creation.

Col 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Just when he formed Satan is unknown; however, Christ and Satan are two VERY distinct enmities. Obviously you are seeing something differently, would you please care to explain.

Love in Christ to you,
Darren

[Deborah-Leigh]

Darren

Only God is good. God does not dwell in evil. I stand by what I have said.

John 1 : 5 And the Light shines on in the darkness, for the darkness has never overpowered it, put it out or absorbed it or appropriated it, and is  UNRECEPTIVE TO IT.

Peace be to those who do not put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

Lord have mercy on me.

Arcturus

[ciy]

I realize that this post is apparently pushing some limit, I just do not want to leave it where it is.  I am and have been a voracious reader of the bible for about 7 years and of Ray's teachings for 2 years. My original post was to encourage that it is through the spirit, not the carnal man, that we will attain to that mark set before us.  Being saved at the end.  Staying faithful to the end.  It was not meant to be directed toward evil, but I stand behind everything I said and I want to make sure you can see it.

Below is what Ray said in LOF part C.

You know that I speak the truth, but many of you can't handle the truth.

So am I saying that since God is the Creator of all, and Sustainer of all, and by Him all things Consist, and He already knows all that is and will be, and He works all things after the counsel of His Own will, that all of the crimes of the world are a part of God's plan? No, that is not my teaching. But this is precisely what the Scriptures say! This is not some perverted theory. I read it in the Bible—in hundreds and hundreds of places!

I have no problem in justifying God in all of His doings, even though I personally am overwhelmed at times over the magnitude of pain and evil that God has subjected us to. It is humbling! It surely does produce God's desired purpose, and I can personally attest to this fact. Inventing an unscriptural and anti-scriptural term like "human free will" or "free choice" does not remove the consequences of evil from God's shoulders.
Then skip down a few lines.

THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH GOD CREATED EVIL

This is all the strange work of God. There is no free will about it. We are all born out of a dark womb into the natural light of day, but this too is but a parable. We must be "born again" out of spiritual darkness of this age into the glorious light of the Sun of God. It is a painful journey, and requires an experience of evil to accomplish.

"And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail has God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith"  (Ecclesiastes 1:13).

What a horrible translation! My King James has three superior numbers in this one verse indicating three different words in the margin. Especially the last phrase:

"...this sore travail has God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith."

What pray tell does that mean? One of the most all-encompassing and profound verses in all Scripture, and most translations butcher it beyond understanding.

NEW AMERICAN BIBLE: "A thankless task God has appointed for men to be busied about."

JEWISH PUBLICATION SOCIETY: "...it is a sore task that God has given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith."

NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION:   "What a heavy burden God has laid on men!"

YOUNG'S LITERAL TRANSLATION: "It is a sad travail God has given to the son of man to be humbled by it."

This is really an important verse; we have got to get it right. Young's Translation gets a little closer to the truth than the KJV or the previous three references. He got the humbled part right. But what is all this "sad travail," "heavy burden," "thankless task," business all about? It is not that difficult if we will just look at the Hebrew words:

Ecc. 1:13 from the King James:

First, the word "this" may be better translated "it," as some have done.

But far, far more important than all, the word "sore" should be translated "EVIL" as almost none have done. It is the Hebrew word ra which always means "EVIL," and is translated as "evil" in hundreds and hundreds of other verses. Why not in this verse? The few times that ra is translated "sore" in the KJV, it ALWAYS means "evil" as in "evil sickness" or "evil troubles."

The word "travail" in the KJV is not out of line with the Hebrew, but is nebulous and not easily understood by most. It would better translated as "employment" or "experience."

And we have already seen from other versions that the KJV "exercised" is better translated "humbled" as Young's and Concordant has done.

Here then is a proper translation of this most profound verse:

"It is an experience of evil Elohim [God] has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it" (Concorant Old Testament).

Now we can easily understand what is being said in this verse.

This "experience of evil" is not the purpose or goal of human existence, but this is indeed the process by which God is bringing His Sons and Daughters into glory! Most translations have hidden the meaning of this verse of Scripture. The translations just couldn't believe that God would do such a thing. They see it all around them. They see it in thousands of Scriptures, but they just couldn't bring themselves to come right out and say it, as God obviously has stated in the original Hebrew of this verse.

"It is an EXPERIENCE of EVIL that God has given to the sons of humanity to HUMBLE them by it."

And to this agrees the rest of Scripture:

"For ALL his days are SORROWS, and his travail [experience] GRIEF..."  (Ecc. 2:23).

The destiny of the human race is indeed GLORIOUS, but the journey is filled with evil and sorrow. This not to say that there are not many beautiful and good things in life, but for most the misery far far outweighs the pleasurable.

I love the plan of God and this just shows some of His depths.  It is a deep thing.

CIY

[Deborah-Leigh]

~God CREATED evil. HE SENDS delusion. HE sends lying spirits to deceive. God TEMPTS no one.

God is RESPONSIBLE for EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE.

Men are ACCOUNTABLE and shall render account to God

Man is Spiritually weak. God is NOT Spiritually weak.

God is Supreme. God SENDS EVIL and EVIL obeys. God orders evil to be evil and evil obeys perfectly.

God CREATES evil for the purpose of creating man into His own image. God did not make man to be evil He made evil to make man into HIS image that is RESPONSIBLE. Man is not RESPONSIBLE. Man is ACCOUNTABLE and through Gods purpose for CREATING evil man is learning to become more like God who is RESPONSIBLE.

God will straighten everything out in the end. Gods purpose is only GOOD!

I still do not see why Jesus is the serpent. the only serpent I know of is the one that appears in Genesis and grows up into the Dragon in Revelations! We know what happens to the Dragon especially if we have have been a voracious reader of the bible for about 7 years and of Ray's teachings for 2 years.

The only connection to the serpent is the one in the OT that was put on a pole that foreshadows the Crucifixion wherein Col 2 : 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, NAILING IT TO HIS CROSS; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, He made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Still can not see that the Serpent is Christ or ever was though

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Kat]

Hi ciy,

This is from your first post;

Do not stop fighting the good fight for that next precept or line.  Do whatever is on your heart to do.  If you physically restrain a deep, ugly desire and are abel to keep it down even though it is still there then you are deceived and will die in your sins.  You must not resist evil but let evil do it's job.  God made it all good for his good will and his plan.  Until you stop trying outwardly to love a mate that you do not like but you carnally disguise it the rest of your life, you build yourself up and take your eyes off of the only true way to love her.  Christ in you.  The only way for evil to kill off the flesh is for you to delight yourself in the Lord and then always act out the desire of your heart until it is purged out and no longer a desire.

It is in your first post that I am having trouble seeing what you mean, because we are striving to live as Christ lived.

1Peter 2:21  For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in His steps.

It sounds like you are saying that we should not restrain ourselves from a desire, but go "act out the desire" and comment the sin and let the correction purge us 
The scripture to not resist evil is directed towards how we treat others.

Mat 5:39  But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also;

Rom 12:17  Repay no one evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all.
v. 18  If possible, so far as it depends upon you, live peaceably with all.
v. 19  Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord."
v. 20  No, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head."
v. 21  Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

I think that when Christ spirit comes in to us, we no longer live according to the flesh, through the power of the spirit in us.

Rom 7:5  While we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
v. 6  But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.

Eph 2:1  And you he made alive, when you were dead through the trespasses and sins
v. 2  in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience.

This is another of your posts;

As long as we cling to the law and try to do it in our flesh, we will build up our flesh no matter what we think.

Surely those who have Christ, realize it is all of the spirit.  We do keep the law, but to a much greater degree than the letter.  Back to my first scripture, we are to follow Christ's example.

Mat 5:17  "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."

I just feel like some of the things you were saying should be more directed toward the church, than the believers here.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[YellowStone]

Arcturus, my sister in Christ.

I agree with you 100%!

You wrote:
God is RESPONSIBLE for EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE.

Men are ACCOUNTABLE and shall render account to God

Man is Spiritually weak. God is NOT Spiritually weak.

God is Supreme. God SENDS EVIL and EVIL obeys. God orders evil to be evil and evil obeys perfectly.

God CREATES evil for the purpose of creating man into His own image. God did not make man to be evil He made evil to make man into HIS image that is RESPONSIBLE. Man is not RESPONSIBLE. Man is ACCOUNTABLE and through Gods purpose for CREATING evil man is learning to become more like God who is RESPONSIBLE.

God will straighten everything out in the end. Gods purpose is only GOOD!

Yet you also said previously in this thread : "I see nothing good in evil..." Even though by your own words, you state quite correctly that God indeed does use evil for the purpose of creating man into his own image. Is this not a GOOD thing. How can it be NOT?

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Then you said: "Only God is good. God does not dwell in evil. I stand by what I have said. "

God does not dwell in evil! He created it. God does not dwell in ANYTHING, for everything is in him. Our God is second to nothing.

Just because man can not see or understand God's ultimate purpose behind the evil in this world, certainly does not mean that it is being used for our good.

I truly hope that you can see this my sister. I truly do.

May God continue to grant his Spirit of truth and understanding to us all.

Your brother in Christ,
Darren

[YellowStone]

Kat, you wrote:

It sounds like you are saying that we should not restrain ourselves from a desire, but go "act out the desire" and comment the sin and let the correction purge us. 

Perhaps I can help you understand the deeper meaning that I read in CIY's post.

We should not have to RESIST sin, while ever we resist we are subject to. Satan wants us to resist; it's like a tug of war, he pulls a little, you pull a little harder, so on, so on. He will win, because the carnal man is no match for Satan. I mentioned this a week or two ago, WE CANNOT beat Satan at his own game.

God does not want us to, and neither does he expect it. Let me pose a question do you. DO you think Jesus resisted Satan in the desert, or do you think Jesus barely tolerated him. Very big difference, for certainly he was not subject to him.

This is what CIY meant. We should strive for spiritual maturity by not be carnally prideful of the sin that we resisted, but rather thankful and gracious for the sin that was NOT for a moment a thought or desire. The strong shield of faith will cause this to happen.

Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

CIY never said we should divulge in sin, rather we should recognize the spiritual message behind the sin and learn from it. While ever we are so tied up resisting evil carnally, we are in fact resisting God.

Does that make sense to you.

Love to you Kat from a fellow brother in Christ,
Darren

[Deborah-Leigh]

I think the stumbling block that is emerging is in how the word use is compared to CREATE. To USE is not the same as to CREATE or to SEND as God does send deceiving Spirits to lie and He sends evil to humble us. He created evil for His purpose but using evil to me implies association and connection! In this sense I reject any such inference.

For me it is beneath God to USE EVIL. God does not use evil He CREATED it to obey HIM and His purpose and that plan in which evil is "good" is to create man into HIS image. I see God as Sovereign, responsible and man as accountable and irresponsible until through the experience of evil that God created, man comes to God, cries to God and recognises God as God, Sovereign, All Powerful, All wise and All loving. I think God creates and sends evil. In this way He authorises and instructs evil to His Plan and Purpose which for me is far higher than the act of "using" rather than directing and instructing.

I think I am seeing the tree of life and not the tree of good and evil and for this reason also I do not think that God has to use anything or any created thing to achieve His purpose. ~This might appears a contradiction but more than this I do not know how to explain.

What God creates works to achieve Gods purpose and plan. There is no need for God to use anything or anyone. As you say Darren, God is second to nothing and no one.

While it is correct to say God does not dwell in anyTHING....

1 Cor 6 : 19 Do you not know that your body is the temple, the very sanctuary of the Holy Spirit Who lives within you?

Of course you know!

Peace to you

Arcturus

[YellowStone]

Arcturus,

This is becoming quite petty.

You wrote: He authorises and instructs evil to His Plan and Purpose which for me is far higher than the act of "using" rather than directing and instructing.

So if "I" authorize and instruct an employee to perform a task am I not "using" that employee to perform that task? Of course I am, but I feel you are personifying "evil."  So, I will follow your logic and bow to political correctness, and modify my statement.

Even though by your own words, you state quite correctly that God indeed does use [mankinds carnal desire for] evil for the purpose of creating man into his own image.

God instructs Satan for we know he instructed Satan in his dealings with Job, not sure if God ever instructed Evil 

You also stated: "For me it is beneath God to USE EVIL."

But we are told:

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

If God is not "Using" evil (be it in the evil desires of carnal man he created also) then why did he create it? 

Oh and you skirted the question of whether or not you can see the good in the evil that God instructs and authorises.

This has to be the pettiest response I have ever written. 

Love to you Arcturus, truly!
Darren

[ciy]

Kat

Maybe we are talking semantics, but I just felt a need to encourage myself and others that when you strive for Christ you can get back into Babylon that way. 

We are to rest in Christ.  We strive in the flesh.

Please do not be offended by my post, but I believe we must be on guard always to encourage each other to stay strong and faithful.  That we must die daily.  Come out of Babylon daily until we are out of our flesh completely. 

We want to get the law into our hearts and not have to think about it in the flesh, but let it be a natural desire of the heart.  If I do it in the flesh it is very easy for me to stay in the flesh.  To purge it out of my heart I have to expose my sin to myself and others so that I can get rid of that desire to care what others think.  When I care what others think then I hide it and cover it up by being good in the flesh.  Let it all hang out for others to see. 

A good example of what I am saying is that you hear that some people who are on the run from the law are relieved when they are finally caught.  They are tired of hiding the truth.  Tired of having to put on a front.  I think we have all had these types of experiences to where we are finally relieved when something is revealed to all concerned.  That is what I feel we are to do.  If I have to make myself be a good husband, then I am really not a good husband even though I may appear to my wife and others that I am a good husband.

I hope this communicates.

Arcturus,
I am not sure exactly why I cannot communicate this so I will quit trying before I break something.

I would like for you to know that I certainly do not feel that Christ and Satan are the same they are the opposites, but God uses this type of opposites throughout scripture.  I was referring to the brass serpent Moses had in the wilderness for people to look to in order to stop the snakes poison from hurting them.  This is a foreshadowing of Christ.

I will recede back to the sidelines and hope that you are not offended.  I really believe if you are not offended by this you will be bless.

CIY
PS- Thanks Darren

[Kat]

Hi ciy,

I think we may be looking at this from different perspectives.
It is good to encourage one another, as you said.

Please do not be offended by my post, but I believe we must be on guard always to encourage each other to stay strong and faithful.  That we must die daily.  Come out of Babylon daily until we are out of our flesh completely

No offense taken 
I am looking at God bringing the few chosen, to where sin no longer has dominion over us.   I know I will never be totally perfect and mature while in the flesh, but you can come to a point where you are not giving into every pull of the flesh.
I will just give a few emails where Ray talks about getting to this point to where we can have victory over sin.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2504.0.html -------

   Likewise people think they "keep" the ten commandments by following the OUTLINE.  No wonder God says, "O that there would be SUCH A HEART in them."  If they would have had a heart of flesh instead of stone, they would have known as Paul instructed us that, "For we know that THE LAW IS SPIRITUALLY" (Rom. 7:14).   Oh really?  Do we really know that?  I know people who know more facts about the Bible that most would ever learn in three lifetimes, and yet, THEY DON'T KNOW that "the law is SPIRITUAL."
     
    Ask God to give you a heart of flesh (by which is meant a heart of spirit, as opposed to one of stone), and you will be walking in the Spirit.
     
    God be with you,
    Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2465.0.html---------

Dear Garrett:
Yours is a common frustration. Many write me with similar struggles
with the flesh after coming into a knowledge of the Truth. I did the
same. I left my First Love and went back into the world, all the while
knowing that I couldn't conquor my flesh. I was so happy for what I
'preceived to be "greasy grace."  Thank God for grace, because I knew
I wasn't going to be saved without it.
I still believe that that part of it is true (about saved by grace only), but
I also know that it is possible when God gets ready, to conquor your
major sins so that sin no longer "reigns over you."  You will not be totally
perfect and mature, but you will not be giving into every pull of the flesh,
for sexual gratification, lust for money, power, good looks, eternal youth,
perfect health, interesting job, travel and excitement, etc., etc., etc.  You
will learn to enjoy the simple pleasure of life like, breathing, sleeping,
walking, talking to your wife, eating a pizza, and going to bed early on a
Saturday night.
God will make you really WANT to stop sinning, long before you will
ACTUALLY stop sinning. It's part of the struggle; part of the good
fight of faith; part of overcoming the flesh.  Don't become discouraged, as
God WILL SEE YOUR THROUGH!

God be with you,
Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1026.0.html--------

Dear Jonathan:

There is no magic bullet that will save you today from all your sins and problems. As you have stated YOU have tried and tried and failed time and again. ONLY GOD can save you from all of your sins.  I can teach you the truths of the Scriptures, but overcoming the sins of the flesh is something that only God can do for you. I know the feeling. I have been there; done that.  But God is faithful, and if you continue to hate your flesh and your sins and cry out to God, He will hear you.  So be encouraged.  Many have gone before you and have obtained the victory over sin. We are never totally free from all sin, but we do reach the place where sin no longer has dominion over us, and that is a great feeling.  Don't do ANYTHING that gives you a guilty conscience.  Don't GO anywhere, don't DO anything, don't SAY anything for which you feel guilty or wouldn't want your wife, children and parents to see you doing.  People condemn me and say all kinds of hateful lies about me on a daily basis.  But my conscience is CLEAR before God, and so I don't have to answer to all my hate-filled detractors.  Take God with you wherever you go and your whole life will change.

God be with you,

Ray
-----------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Redbird]

Hi Arcturus,

I understand when you say you are seeing the tree of life, I also want to spend less and less time at the tree of good and evil, and more and more time with the tree of life! 

Peace and Love,
Lisa

[Deborah-Leigh]

Darren

Luke 7 : 2 ...The centurion sent some friends to Him, (Jesus) saying Lord, do not trouble Yourself, for I am not sufficiently worthy to have you come under my roof; 7. Neither did I consider myself worthy to come to You. But just speak a word, and my servant boy will be healed. 8. For I also am a man daily subject to AUTHORITY, with soldiers under me. And I say to one, Go, and he goes and to another Come, and he comes; and to my bond servant, Do this, and he does it. 9. Now when Jesus heard this, HE MARVELED AT HIM, and He turned and said to the crowd that followed Him, I tell you, not even IN ALL ISRAEL  have I found such great FAITH AS THIS.

The Centurion KNEW and UNDERSTOOD God's SOVEREIGNTY and  POWER. The BEGINNING of Wisdom is AS such reverential awe of God THAT JESUS reveals was the greatest faith HE has witnessed in ALL ISRAEL.

Pretty petty stuff hey Darren? (Rhetorical question!) Your evaluation of my post Darren is derogatory and has no foundation in the Scriptures.

Lisa~!  thank you for your likeminded fellowship of encouragement. Perhaps Jesus would also say to you, Great Faith have you who know the Sovereignty of God. Certainly Ray Smith is also such a one as this!

Peace to you 

Arcturus