Where is all of this going?

[Dean Peterman]

Dear friends,

I want to thank Arcturus, Matt, Kat, Chris, Gena, and Pera for your encouragement and kind words.  Kat you are so right about the value of the Bible versus theology.  I see that now.  One of the challenges I have in my life now is my fear of my family and friends finding out that I no longer believe in the doctrine of hell and that I am very close to rejecting belief in an immortal soul.  I am still struggling with the Trinity.  I have never understood how God can be both a single being but yet 3 persons.  That seems contradictory to me.  Dr. Geisler explains in his Systematic Theology books that this is all a mystery but not necessarily contradictory.  I have read so many theology books trying to explain and prove this doctrine but no one seems to be able to  prove that it is not contradictory.  I am starting to question this doctrine.  If God's name is Jehovah (or something similar) then who is Jehovah.  Dr. Geisler calls Jehovah a person but if Jehovah is a person then that would make 4 people because none of the other members of the Trinity are exclusively called Jehovah.  So, if Jehovah is a person, this would seem to make the concept of the Trinity contradictory since the being called God is a person named Jehovah but is supposedly also made up of 3 other persons.  This seems to be more than a mystery.  Instead, it appears to be a serious contradiction.  I have ignored most of these kinds of contradictions because I was afraid to honesty evaluate these things.  On the other hand there are so many verses that can lead someone to believe that Jesus is God.  So I am still struggling with this doctrine.

Please pray for me because I lack courage.  I fear telling anyone about my new beliefs.  I know that rejecting the doctrine of hell, belief in an immortal soul and the trinity will cause people to see me as a deluded fool. 

The most difficult thing about all of this is that I don't even know where all of this is leading.  If there is no heaven or hell what happens to people after they die?  That is what I am still trying to figure out. 

If anyone has any helpful information to offer I am all ears.

Sincerely,

Dean

[Kat]

Hi Dean,

You surely are having a time with this new found truth.  The reality of what you are learning, being so contrary to what you have no doubt always heard, can really shake up your world.  But that is good, that should help you see why this world is so mixed up.
Right now I think you should not worry about explaining things to others, before you get it figured out better for yourself.

Here is a couple of emails that explains the basics abot the Trinity.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2364.0.html ----------------

Dear James:
Certainly.
People often fail to understand even the physical aspects of the Scriptures simply because they do not follow or believe the principles and declarations in the Scriptures. What good does it do to argue all the Scriptures which speak of the hair, head, eyes, ears, face, mouth, arms, hands, feet, etc., "of the LORD," and then be totally ignorant of Who the "LORD" really is, and who the FATHER really is?

Is the LORD [Jehovah} of the Old Testament the God and Father of Jesus Christ?  Absolutely NOT.

Notice what Jesus said concerning His God and His Father:  "...NO MAN knows the the Son, but the Father, NEITHER knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will REVEAL HIM" (Matt. 11:27 & Luke 10:22).  Now then, with that in mind:  "NO MAN has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, HE has declared [unfoled or interpreted] Him" (John 1:18). Did Jesus lie?  Did Moses indeed see "God the FATHER?"  Not according to the Scriptures:  not according to Jesus His Son.  Did the Apostles know anything about the Father of Jesus?  "Philip said unto Him, Lord show US [all of us] the  Father, and it suffices US" (John 14:.

The "LORD--Elohim/Jehovah/God" of the Old Testament was Jesus Christ, not Jesus' Father. And God the Father is SPIRIT (John 4:24), and INVISIBLE (Col. 1:15).

God is SPIRIT (John 4:24)
God is INVISIBLE (Col. 1:15)
No man has seen God (John 1:18)
No man ever heard God or seen His shape [Gk: 'nor a perception of Him have you seen]" (John 5:37)
Jesus came out from God (Rev. 2:14;  John 8:42;  16:28;  17:5, 8, 24, Col. 1:13;  etc.)
Jesus is THE LORD/Jehovah of the Old Testament (John 8:58;  I Cor. 10;4;  etc.)
Jesus IS A MAN (I Thes. 2:15).
God is NOT A MAN (Num. 23:19).
Etc., etc., etc.

The above Scriptures don't contradict any Scriptures. The above arguments of your friend contradict hundreds of Scriptures.
God be with you,
Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2397.0.html --------------------

Dear Beth:
I have explained this fully according to the Scriptures in my paper on the trinity. I realize that most cannot understand what the Scriptures say anymore than they can understand that we make all our own choices, according to our own wills, but we do not have "free" will, neither do we make "free" choices. Both of these have a "cause," and it is the cause that takes away all "freedom." 

Many people think that "God" is the last name of the Father. Not true. Some believe that Jesus is His OWN FATHER, and therefore, would have to be of necessity, His OWN SON as well. And virtually all Christians believe that the Holy Spirit 'OF' God the Father is really ANOTHER PERSON.  Here is what the Scriptures teach, and here is what you need to know.

The Holy Spirit 'OF' God the Father, IS NOT A PERSON.
Jesus Christ is not GOD THE FATHER.
Jesus HAS A GOD, and it is God the Father.
God the Father HAS A SON, and His name is Jesus the Christ.
The Holy Spirit is not the "god" or "son" or "father" of ANYONE.

Now then: Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit OF GOD THE FATHER.  Jesus was not conceived by THE HOLY SPIRIT GOD--there is no such thing or person in Scripture.

Jesus Christ came OUT FROM GOD His Father (John 16:28; 9:42; 17:5, 8, 24; Col. 1:15; I John 4:9; 14; Rev. 3:14; etc).  Therefore He did not ALWAYS exist "outside" the Father. We too will become the manifest Sons of God (Rom. 8:19-21; I John 3:2, etc.).

The Holy Spirit 'OF' God the Father never came out from anyone.

Hope this helps you.

God be with you,
Ray
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for more on the trinity here is a link to the article on BT, 'Is God a Closed TRINITY or an Open FAMILY?'

http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html

You have to give this some time to sink in.  If God is opening your eyes to the truth, then His Spirit will lead you to realize that this is the truth, and you can not deny it.  Keep reading and I'll be praying for you 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[mari_et_pere]

Please pray for me because I lack courage.  I fear telling anyone about my new beliefs.  I know that rejecting the doctrine of hell, belief in an immortal soul and the trinity will cause people to see me as a deluded fool.

Dean,

You have no idea how well I know that, brother. I believe these "alternative" truths, while my wife is fully entrenched in a non-denominational church. She thinks I'm big headed, proud, high and mighty, holier than thou, unwilling to accept the truth. Funny because that's how I see the teachers in church. 

I've humbled myself toward people who attend church. I get a little upset how they get spoken of here sometimes, because their hearts are generally in the right place. Look at yourself as a perfect example. You studied, and yet didn't have the truth. It's not the person, it's the doctines. It's the teachings. It's not the person. It's not the person. It's not the person. It's not the person. It's not the person. It's not the person.

It's too bad that the majority of people don't hate the sin, they hate the sinner. They'll see you as strange, and not the belief. Our beliefs are strange. God's work is a strange work.

Luk 5:26  And they were all amazed, and they glorified God, and were filled with fear, saying, We have seen strange things to day.

Act 17:20  For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean. (philosophers speaking to Paul)

Speaking of strange,
1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

So people will think that we are strange, because human nature says "people are weird" when it's not the person, it's the action or belief or thought of that person. But fear not because God will work it all out! Part of our "fiery trial" in this life is the fact that people aren't going to agree with us, generally speaking, and they'll think we are strange. It's not us, it's our beliefs, that they really find strange.

Matt

[Craig]

I've humbled myself toward people who attend church. I get a little upset how they get spoken of here sometimes, because their hearts are generally in the right place. Look at yourself as a perfect example. You studied, and yet didn't have the truth. It's not the person, it's the doctines. It's the teachings. It's not the person. It's not the person. It's not the person. It's not the person. It's not the person. It's not the person.

Amen, Amen.  I've been trying to come up with the words to say for awhile now, but I could not say it better.  There are people in church that I know personally, who are better people than I ever thought about being.  It's all of God.

Craig

[gmik]

After 2 years there are many people in my life who just assume I am the same old Christian I have always been.  But if they are not seeking and and the time to listen then I don't even bring anything up.

The other nite I was w/ a girlfriend who had just found out I didn't attend my old church anymore.  She was really surprised and asked why?  We were at a BBQ w/ others so I wasn't going to get into it, so I just said, Well, I have moved on and don't agree doctrinally w/ them.  That is all I said.

Hopefully she will want to know more.  I am a little disappointed that she didn't call or email the very next day to find out more.  Oh well.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Dean

It is very healthy that you express your fear of persecution, rejection, ridicule and all those things for which it is written

Heb 4 : 15 For we do NOT have a High Priest Who is UNABLE to understand and have a shared feeling with our weaknesses and infirmities and liability to the assaults of temptation, but One Who has been tempted in EVERY RESPECT AS WE ARE, yet without sinning.

For this we are DRAGGED against our better judgment, choice, preference or will, into the marvelous light of liberation into the mind, heart and life of Christ!

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[hebrewroots98]

Dear Dean, i understand your reservations, but ultimately,......does it matter where you are going.... as long as you are in Christ and HE is in you?  Can you trust HIM to lead you in your blindness right now?  Just know that HE will eventually show you things that you  cannot handle right now.  Your eyes are opening daily, little by little...just be patient my friend.

[Shmeggly]

Good post Dean.  It's not easy to "go against the grain" so to speak.  It's hard when it's with friends who still go to church and believe what we used to believe.  I have spoken to a few about it, including the pastor, but we "agree to disagree", and I no longer bring it up, and they don't bombard me with their side.  If the door is opened however, and an opportunity comes up....that's a different matter. 

I have been guilty of being hard on the church people, and catch myself being impatient with their attitudes.  All I have to do is look at how deceived I was....(I followed anyone who sounded good.  I'm suprised I didn't end up a Hare Krishna or something!)  Then I find my patience restored.  But it takes work for me anyway....

I have to remind myself everyday to relax....God has a plan, and it's taking shape.  I get myself worked up sometimes....I kind of hear that in your post.  So I feel for you....sometimes it takes letting go, and letting God be sovereign. 
And if that doesn't work....do what I do....tell yourself, "It's all going to be ok!"     That's almost become my mantra lately!