Purpse for the Crucifixion

[Falgn0n]

Hi all

I have a question, that on the surface and perhaps to most of you will seem like rather a fundamental thing, but I have been wonderin about this for a while, and I just can't arrive at a satisfactory answer...

WHY did Jesus die on the cross?

Now don't all jump up and scream at me...

I know and realize that He did it save all mankind...

but WHY DIE? We already know that we have no power to choose our own destiny, no free will

so WHY did He come here to DIE?

I emailed Ray, and He said that Jesus CHOSE to die for us in order to demonmstrate His Great Love for us...Ok...

but that's not enough... there's gotta be more to it than that...

He also said I could find a teaching here in the forums somewhere, Does anyone know where it is?

Does anyone have a thought on this...

Falgnon.

[rocky]

IMO,

Jesas came to fulfill the promises made to Abraham, that through his seed, all families would be blessed. 

He was made of a woman, made under the law (Gal 4:4). 

He came to show the way to obtaining the inheritance/promises to Abraham.  The way was different than the method of the law abiding jews.  They focused on a natural, physical means to the blessing, self pride and self potential. 

Christ taught and demonstrated that only through rebirth, a spiritual God ordained birth (representative of Isaac, not Ishmael) by faith can one obtain the prize. 

This was through death to the old (law, jewish, natural system) and by resurrection (circumcision of the heart). 

Flesh and blood (self effort) can not enter the kingdom of God.

He was the forerunner to the completed plan of salvation and guarantee'er (sp??) that all would be saved, but in an order and a method that involved mercy to some, hardening to others, but in the end, LIFE to all. 

In Adam (flesh, law abiding system, old covenant) all die, IN Christ (spiritual birth, by faith) all will be made alive. 

jmo,

[hillsbororiver]

Thanks to Kat we have the transcripts to the Nashville Conference, the audio is also available. Here is a tidbit from the topic;

Isa 53:5  'But He was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon Him was the punishment that made us whole, and by His bruises we are healed.
Isa 53:6  All we like sheep have gone astray; we have all turned to our own way, and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."

So not only did He have to carry all of our sins and shortcomings and everything else to the cross.  But all His life He carried the pain, the sickness, the disease and the infirmaries in His body.  Why?  Because God is not going to put us through something that He is not willing to go through Himself!   That's why we follow in His footsteps, see.

Read it all here;

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

His Peace to you,

Joe

(Link to audios)

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2641.0.html

[Kat]

Hi FalgnOn,

I'm glad you have come here  

Here is another point about the greatest of all sacrifices.
Those that do not believe that Christ was raised, can have no hope for a resurrection either.

1Co 15:16  For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised.
V. 17  And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
v. 18  Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
v. 19  If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied.

But we know that Jesus was the Firstfruit, in His resurrection, now we all have hope to be resurrected.

1Co 15:21  For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
v. 22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
v. 23  But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

This is from the Nashville conference also, that Joe was referring to, it will give you another aspect of why Christ died.
It is on audio 7B, link below
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Nashville07_7B.mp3

This was taken from the transcript posts 3-4  'WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS?'

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html --------

Jesus Christ did something between His creation and the creation of the earth.  He did something to acquire God's glory, something.  Because He had it and He didn't get it for nothing.  
God wants creatures, He wants children, He wants sons and daughters.  He has a desire to have something like Himself.  But for us to be like Him, we have to go through some pretty tough stuff.  So He sent His Son as an example, as how you can go through it and never get angry or upset with God.  And to never turn against your fellowman, because of what you have to go through.  He lived a perfect life, of the perfect man, sick and diseased, in pain and He lived it perfectly.  But God was living in Him, the Father was going through it just as much as He was, you see.  

Christ had to die, it said He had to die for our sins.  That's true, that's the scripture, Christ died for our sin.  But then we have a scripture here that doesn't mention sin.

John 3:16  "For God so(thus) loved the world,"

Thus or in the manner, a lot of people think it's saying He loved us so much, but that is not what this is saying.  What this is saying is God loved us, in this way.  This is the manner and way in which He loved us.  In this way He loved the world.

"...that He gave His only begotten Son,"

Ok, He died, they killed Him on the cross, He died.

"...that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life."

Of course the Bible is written so man don't understand it.  That's why some of these things are put in there, "that who-so-ever believes."  God knows and now we know, everybody is going to believe.  So the 'who-so-ever' is going to be everybody, ok.  

But He gave His Son, now here's the point I want to make and that is this, why did Christ have to die?  Why?  Why did the Father sacrifice His Son?  Why did He have to do that?  HE DIDN'T HAVE TO DO THAT!  He didn't have to do anything, HE'S GOD!  Why did He?  
Because whether you recognize it now or later in life or those in the resurrection to judgment or for the rest of eternity, we are going to know it for sure.  That God died for us for no other reason than to show us that HE LOVES US!  He did not have to die.  He said, I will do it to show them.  How can I show them that what I am putting them through has real value?  What can I do?  I can promise them the world, I can give them mansions and youth and joyful life.  I have all that to give, but they will say,  you are only giving out of your abundance, of what you have.  What can I really do, that you will know that I really love you?  And God said, I will DIE!  
But God can't die, He's eternal, He has immortality, deathlessness.  If you have immortality you can't die.  
So He made a Son.  He made Him great.  And to show us how great He was, He said, let Me show you what I can do when I make a Son.  Ok, Create the universe first, now become a man, and now die.  
Then they will know We love them.  
Then they will know.
-----------------------------------------------------

I hope this will help your understanding of the greatest act of love that was ever performed  

mercy, peace and love
Kat

p.s. thanks Joe, we were typing at the same time.

[sasscell]

Hi all, here's a scripture, I didn't notice in the previous posts, I may have missed it though.

Heb 9:22  And almost all things are by the law purged with blood;and without shedding of blood is no remission.

But, this begs the question, why did God decide that death is the payment for sin? 

[Falgn0n]

Thank you all so much for your quick responses!  I will reply in more detail as soon as get a chance, but I just have a few quick questions for KAT:

Quote: "Those that do not believe that Christ was raised, can have no hope for a resurrection either"
Does that mean that It is theoretically possible that some people will not be raised?
That does not agree with the idea that ALL MEN WILL BE SAVED.

Quote: "Jesus Christ did something between His creation and the creation of the earth"
At what point in time was Jesus "Created"?? (Ref John 1:1)

Quote: "Christ had to die" (bold - mine)
WHY did he HAVE TO die? This is the core of my dillemma...

Quote: "He did something to acquire God's Glory"
Now, therein might be a clue to the answer I'm looking for... but I might have to just think on that for a while, But certainly there seems to be something
of the idea that God was giving to Mankind a "sounding-board" (if you will) of what we will be when He's done
with us.  Where is that scripture in 1 John that says: "We shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is..." ?

I will write again... I'm outta time right now...

[rvhill]

You have heard the saying that, blood is thicker then water. The saying was originally, blood is thicker then milk. Adoption in bible is by blood, and sibling shear milk. Adoption supersede all other family ties in the bible. An adopted child come before a birth children. This were the saying come from, read the story of David. Jesus' death is God adoption plan for the human race.  

[rvhill]

Hi all, here's a scripture, I didn't notice in the previous posts, I may have missed it though.

Heb 9:22  And almost all things are by the law purged with blood;and without shedding of blood is no remission.

But, this begs the question, why did God decide that death is the payment for sin? 

Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Kat]

Hi Falgnon,

Quote: "Those that do not believe that Christ was raised, can have no hope for a resurrection either"

Does that mean that It is theoretically possible that some people will not be raised?
That does not agree with the idea that ALL MEN WILL BE SAVED.

What I was pointing out that the scripture from Paul was saying in 1Cor. 15.  Is that if Christ was not raised, as some believed then and now.  Then what hope (just what they believed - their hope) would those that believed that (He was NOT raised) have of being raised, because Christ is the Firstfruit.  In other words, it they didn't even believe Christ was raised, then most certain they couldn't believe they would be raised.  We must have faith, but that is a gift of God.

Eph 2:8  For by grace you have been saved(begotten) through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

He must be raised FIRST, then those at His coming, then the rest of mankind at the resurrection of the dead/Great White Throne Judgment.  All will most certainly be saved.

Quote: "Jesus Christ did something between His creation and the creation of the earth"

At what point in time was Jesus "Created"?? (Ref John 1:1)

There is another part in the Nashville conference (audio 4) 'WHERE DID JESUS COME FROM?'
This goes into great detail to explain when Christ came into being.  I will simply state, God created Christ to be the means by which all of this physical universe was created.

Quote: "Christ had to die" (bold - mine)
WHY did he HAVE TO die? This is the core of my dillemma...

This was the will of the Father, that in His perfect wisdom He knew this was the best possible way to do all this to be done.

Once you have went through everything in the Nashville conference, most of your questions should be answered.  There is so much there, that I can not possibly relate to you.  But I hope I have helped to clear some of this up for you.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[pylady]

Hi Falgnon,

What amazes me is that the Father formed this plan from the very beginning.
He wants a family, and He knows exactly what each of us needs to experience
to be the unique son or daughter He wants. 

When He decided to create a family the plan was complete  - it only needed to be executed. (Isn't that amazing!  He knew each one of us before we were even created!)   To carry out His plan He created a Son through Whom He would create the rest of His family.   

OK I'm getting to my point:

The scriptures call Jesus the "Firstborn" .  Yes, He was the first creation of the Father, the only direct creation.  But, it seems this designation "Firstborn"  means even more.   Because He is the Firstborn of many brothers.  The Father's plan from the beginning was for His Son to be the Son of Man (which Jesus referred to himself as).  That would mean He would be fully human with a human body (that is to experience life as we experience, except sinless, and to die).  He would also be firstborn from the dead.  That would require Him to die physically, and be raised spiritually, thus being Firstborn from the dead, the first of many brothers (all the human race eventually).

God does not merely tell us how He will give us salvation.  He showed us by sending His Son to take every step we must take from birth to death to resurrection in the spirit.

What a wonderful, truly awe-inspiring Father we have.  The more we know Him
the more we understand that HE IS LOVE.

With Christian Love,

        Cindy

   Just another thought.  -- If Jesus set the pattern for us, perhaps someday the Father will give us the great priviledge of creating through us.  Just a thought, nothing scriptually. 

[jackson]

Cindy

I too have had similar thoughts of God at some point useing us as "creative tools" in the same manner that he is useing our Lord Jesus.  I don't have any Scripture as back up just idle thoughts.  I have even thought it to "dangerous" a subject to think about for to long.  If you catch my drift?  None the less, how glorious would that be to be used in that way?!  WOW!!!

Any way just thought it was interesting that you and I were like minded on that point .  Hope I didn't derail the tthread with this .  Sorry for throwing everone out of sorts.

Jackson

[pylady]

Hi Jackson,

It's good to know that I'm not the only person with these "crazy" thoughts!
Thanks for letting me know that you're crazy too!   


A few scriptures that seem to go with Falgnon's original post and my reply:

from the Message:  Eph 1:2-6  "Long before He laid down earth's foundations,
            He had us in mind, had settled on us as the focus of His love, to be
            made whole and holy by His love.  Long, long ago He decided to adopt
            us into His family through Jesus Christ.  (What pleasure He took in
            planning this!)  He wanted us to enter into the celebration of His
            lavish gift-giving by the hand of His Son."

     Hebrews 2:14-18  "Since the children are made of flesh and blood, it's
     logical that the Savior took on flesh and blood in order to rescue them
     by His death.  By embracing death, taking it into Himself, He destroyed
     the devil's hold on death and freed all who cower through life, scared to
     death of death.
     It's obvious, of course, that He didn't go to all this trouble for angels.
     It was for people like us, children of Abraham.  That's why He had to enter
     into every detail of human life.  Then, when He came before God as high
     priest to get rid of the people's sins, He would have already experienced it
     all Himself - all the pain, all the testing - and would be able to help where
     help was needed."

  With Christian love,

               Cindy   

[Falgn0n]

Hi all,

KAT:
I understand now what you meant by that reference to the resurrection..

Quote: "God created Christ "
I am really having a difficult time with that.
I did listen to some (not all) of the audio from the nashville conference, and yes, it has answered this question of mine to a large extent. I have not yet come to a part that explores the idea of Christ being "created"
John 1:1 - "In the begining was the word..."

Christ is of course, the Word made flesh...

Rev 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Rev 1:11  Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev 1:12  And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13  And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man

Rev 1:17  And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

This is Jesus, referring to Himself as The Beginning & End / First & Last

Maybe I will have to listen to the rest of that conference, but it was always my understanding that Jesus is, was and will be -He is Eternal, like the Father, No beginning or end...
Isn't the very foundation of our belief in Him based on the fact that He is, Himself - GOD??
God made manifest in the flesh for us to personally experience?

This is of course, also the answer to my question:
God made Himself flesh and lived among us and died on the cross BY HIS OWN CHOICE, and for the purpose of REVEALING His nature & character to us.  Our limited human understanding is certainly utterly incapable of perceiving God in all His fullness and glory, so He set it aside in order that we might have the meagre possibility of being able to relate to Him.
He took our sufferings upon Himself in order to identify with us and to make it possible for us to identify with Him, to see His heart, His nature, and to be shamed by it.
It was no doubt the single greatest act of selflessness ever.  The entire Bible-story is a progression of events leading us to Christ, to God revealing Himself to us on a human level, which is just another step along the road to when He reveals Himself to us in all the fullness of His glory!
My curiosity in this issue is satisfied, however, I now have a new dilemma, and that is the idea that Christ was at some point in (or before) time "CREATED".  I just can't see it...

PYLADY:
Quote: "That would require Him to die physically, and be raised spiritually, thus being Firstborn from the dead, the first of many brothers"
Quote: "God does not merely tell us how He will give us salvation. He showed us by sending His Son to take every step we must take from birth to death to resurrection in the spirit."
YES! that is the key point in the process!
Quote: "Just another thought. -- If Jesus set the pattern for us, perhaps someday the Father will give us the great priviledge of creating through us."
(I am quite inclined to agree with you there...)

You also say that Jesus was "Created".....

Sorry guys, I need a little help with that one...

Falgn0n.

[skydreamers]

Hi FalgnOn,

You also say that Jesus was "Created".....

Sorry guys, I need a little help with that one...

Falgn0n.

This section from Ray's paper "Is God a closed Trinity..." might be helpful to you:


http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html

    "I and the Father, We are ONE" (John 10:30).

Let me be perfectly clear, logical, and Scriptural on this matter:

    One plus one plus one DOES NOT equal one!

    One God plus one God plus one God DOES NOT equal one God!

    One third of a God plus one third of a God plus one third of a God DOES NOT equal one whole God!

    The Holy Spirit of God cannot also be that same God! ANYTHING that is either "from" or "of" something ELSE cannot also "BE" that something else no matter what or who it is!

    A "Father" and a "Son" CANNOT ALSO BE THE SAME PERSON!

Countless things can be said to "be ONE" in numerous forms of close relationship. In this close relationship of purpose, will, harmony, etc., our Lord said:

    "I and the Father, We are ONE" (John 10:30).

Will all my readers please note that Jesus DID NOT say "I and the Father, We are one GOD," did He? No, He did not!

Do the Scriptures, however, tell us that there is only ONE GOD? Yes, they do.

Do the Scriptures, tell us WHO that ONE God is? Yes, they do.

Do the Scriptures tell us what the relationship of Jesus Christ is with that ONE God? Yes, they do.

In fact, all of these things are answered in ONE Scripture.

I will now give you the ONLY Scripture you will EVER need for understanding Who Jesus Christ and God the Father are and how many Gods there are, and Who composes that ONE God. Here it is:

    "For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for US there is ONE God, the FATHER, out of Whom ALL IS, and we for Him, and ONE LORD, JESUS CHRIST, through Whom all is, and we through Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).

And the next verse says

    "But NOT IN ALL is there this knowledge" (Ver. 7)

I can say "Amen" to that. Practically "not in all" Christendom is there this knowledge.

If you have not yet THANKED GOD for making these things so clear, so meaningful, and so simple, DO IT NOW!

The above verse really doesn't need commentary, but I want to comment anyway.

How many Gods are there? Answer: "ONE God."

Of Whom is this ONE God composed? Answer: "the FATHER." NOT, the Father, AND the Son, AND the holy ghost! Just, "the Father!" ONLY, "the Father!!" "ONE God, the FATHER!"

Is this too hard for anyone? Is not God's definition far easier and better than the theologians' "one, plus ONE, plus ONE, equals ONE" nonsense?

Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let God's Word tell us. We don't need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. It is only hard for those who wrestle and twist Scripture to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16). John 8:5-6 makes the following very clear:

This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).

And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.

God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."

    "...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." (John 16:27-28).

Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesn't the Scripture say so? He didn't come out of the trinity and He didn't come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"

And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ:

    "Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col. 14-17).

Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!

Jesus Christ is not the SUPREME DEITY. Christ is not the originator of all. Christ is "the Lord." He is the Son of God. He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is the Mediator,

    For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." (I Tim. 2:5).

As I said before, one cannot be both "of" something or someone and at the same time "be" that something or someone.



Reading this paper was a real eye opener for me.  It just shows once again how many false man-made doctrines there are out there.

Peace,
Diana

[Kat]

Hi Falgnon,

I think once you hear the rest of the audio, you will get a much better understanding of where Jesus came from.
I have taken these excerpts that I think will help you for now.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.msg38212.html#msg38212 ----

There are three theories about how Christ came about.

1)  He came about for the first time as a human being, out of a physical mother.  That was the first time Christ ever existed.
2)  He was created sometime before that and them came into the mother.
3)  Then you have, He is eternal, He always existed.

Very few believe He just came into existence as a physical human being, for the first time ever.  Though I had one man argue with me for weeks.  He said, 'no, in the beginning was the Word and it was the Father, that the Word was God and not Christ'.  Not too many people believe that, but some do. 
Most people follow the Christian tradition and they believe no. 3, that Christ was eternal, He's part of the trinity and He's always existed.
But of course the truth is no. 2, Jesus Christ was created.

-"the Origin of God's creation" (James Moffatt).
-"God's creative Original" (Concordant Literal New Testament).
-"The Chief of the creation of God" (Young's Translation).
-"the Origin, and Beginning, and Author of God's creation" (The Amplified New Testament).

Well the truth of the matter is from those translations, you can't actually prove that He is not eternal, by that statement.  But you say, yea He's the beginning, He started the creation, He's eternal.  So to me it's a proof that He is the beginning.  Not the beginning of what God has created on the earth, but He Himself is 'the beginning' of God's creation.  It depends how you emphasize.  You have the same sentence with two totally different meanings. 
It's like, I tell you this day, today I'm telling you, you shall be in paradise.  Or.  I tell you, today you shall be in paradise.  And there's this one.  What's that up in the road ahead.  Or.  What's that up in the road, a head.
So we won't place a lot of emphasis on that one.  But one thing that we do know from that one is, before He was human, He was there!  So we know whatever His beginning was, He was there, at the beginning.
v
skip down in article
v
This "Almighty" is the "Alpha & Omega." This "Alpha and Omega" is called "First and Last" in Rev. 1:11 and "First and Last" in 1:17.  But we still can't conclusively prove it from that, that He was there.  But then we read in verse 18, is the One who became "DEAD."  Now the thing is, can God die?  If Christ is eternally existing with His Father, eternally, how could He DIE? Can an eternal God die?
v
v
v
[4] "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God,"
Actually & literally this verse says, "God was the Word" (Concordant).
"...and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by HIM(the Word) and without Him was not anything made that was made." (John 1:1-3). 
V. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelled among us.  the only begotten of the Father?"

The Word of God, that is the Word - Logos - Spokesman, ok.  Jesus Christ has a name on His side (Revelation 19) and that name is, "the Word of God."  Jesus Christ is the Word - Spokesman - Logos - representative - messenger of God.  Because nobody has ever heard God or seen Him.  So if God wants to convey something to the human race, He does it through His Word - His Spokesman - His Messenger - His Logos - Jesus Christ.  Now in Genesis how do we know that it's not God the Father speaking, because no one has ever heard His voice or seen His shape for that matter. So when ever you hear a voice, it's not God, well....not exactly. 

[5] How can we be absolutely sure that this is not the Father speaking in Genesis? Answer: "And the Father Himself, which has sent Me, has born witness of Me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape" (John 5:37). Did Moses hear God's voice?  Answer: "Did ever people hear the voice of GOD speaking out of the midst of the fire, as you have heard, and live?" (Deut. 4:33). Did Moses see the shape of God? "you shall SEE MY BACK PARTS." (Exodus 33:18-23). This is Jesus.

[6] "For by HIM [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS were created by Him and for Him" (Col. 1:15-19).
By Jesus Christ, that's right He made everything.

"Let this mind be in you, which was [is] also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant [slave], and WAS made in the likeness of men"(Phil. 2:5-7).

Now here we learn a little more of what this is about.  When it says "mind" it is the disposition of God Himself.  Where it says "equal with God" it is the same amount or degree and so on. 
"Being in the form of God..."  is being inherently in the form of God.  Inherently, that's an interesting word, it means possessed at birth or the inborn, right.  I thought now that is interesting, that before He became man, He was by birth - inborn.  Strong's uses the word, He existed as a 'innate'.  Existent as an innate birth, a right by birth.  That is what it means, a right by or through birth.  Jesus Christ was born (to which of the angels did He ever say, you are My son I have begotten you), as a little boy in a manger?  He was His Son, from the beginning.  The whole idea of Jesus Christ, was to be a Son, 'from the beginning.'  Now it says. 

Phi 2:6  "...thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
v. 7  but made Himself of no reputation, and took on Himself the form of a servant(slave), and was made in the likeness of man."
So this was an inborn right of birth, to have these powers.  And what did He do?  Where it says, He made Himself of no reputation, the KJ margin says, "He empted Himself of all His privileges."  I mean He is so mighty and everything, I mean you're not going to kill Him.  He has got to reduce down, to something really small, compared to what He was.  And He voluntarily did that, "He took it on Himself," you see.  And He was made low enough to kill.  It says in Hebrews, "A little lower than the angels," so they could kill Him.  And how was that accomplished?  He emptied Himself of everything, God had given to Him.  I guess God could have taken it away, but He didn't take it away, Christ gave it up.
Now here is a verse you might not think proves that Christ is the Creator.

[7] "For though there be that are called gods (theos is plural), whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many;  But to us there is but ONE GOD, the Father, OF Whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ BY Whom are all things, and we by Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).
Everything, "all things" are out 'of' God.
The word "of" in this verse is ek ex and it means--origin, from, out of, like exist(toget out of, to exist). Here is the Concordant Translation "there is One God, the Father, OUT OF WHOM ALL IS"  If "all things are out of God," then certainly that includes Jesus. Where is Jesus Christ 'from'?  Is He some 'thing'?  He is the grandest thing of all.  "All things," are ek ex from the Father.  So where did Christ come from?  It says "all things" are of or out of (ek ex) God.  And there is only one God, the Father, and we in Him.  "and one Lord Jesus Christ BY Whom" that means through or the channel of.
There it is! 
Everything, all knowledge, the plan of the universe is out of God.  But then it is channeled through Jesus Christ. Why?  He's the Spokesman, and the creator, and the Savior, and the example to humanity.  Because God can't come down and face us, face to face. Christ in His glory, in the OT, you couldn't face Him either, it would have blown you away.  But He emptied Himself.  Christ talked about "My Father, your Father; My God, your God." (John 20:17) 
So everything there is, is out of God and then it is through or By Jesus Christ, that He channeled everything that there is.
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat

[Falgn0n]

wow, Skydreamers - You know I have read that paper before, but never saw it... 

I still struggle with it, suffer no delusion, but scripture is scripture.

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Well, Kat, thank you so much for that link, it really helped me.

I was born and bred in "White" South Africa, the Dutch Reformed Church is my heritage. Nearly 12 years ago, I became what I understood then to be: "Born Again" and joined the "Charismatic" movement in the church.  From the moment I was born until now, I was made to believe nothing other than the "Trinity" concept: God existing in three distinct individual ways: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and these three are one...

I first began to wonder about this "doctrine" when I realised that there is never a reference to that word "Trinity" anywhere in the Bible. And then, thru Bible-Truths.com I was introduced to the fact that a whole chunk from 1 John 5:7-8 IS NOT EVEN PRESENT in the original manuscripts - this verse was of course one of the foundations upon which was built the doctrine of the Trinity.

But there is another. In Acts: The situation with Ananias and Sapphira. Peter says to them: "..why did it enter your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit? You have not lied to men, but to God."
Does this not indicate that the Holy Spirit is in fact, God?

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I have now read just about all of the material that you indicated for me to read, And I must say: I have a much clearer understanding now, of who Jesus Christ is.
I still have to begin a little research project like this to get a thourough understanding of the Holy Spirit, but I will not ask you to go as far as you did with the Jesus Christ / Crucifixion thing - at least not until I have done some of my own homework on the subject 

God's wisdom and power are unsearchable!  All Glory is His.

Thank you so much for the time you invested in answering my posts.

Falgn0n.