"Types"

[indianabob]

Hi Gregor,

I tend to agree with the quote from your message on types as follows:

The reality is, that if we did love in its purest form, we would never get married, and we would be as it is in heaven, neither married, nor given in marriage, but one with God (Imitating Christ). Our prime reason for marriage is because of the war raging in our members and our lack of self-control (fruit of the spirit). This too is a part of the plan.
Rom.8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

HOWEVER:  How does this fit in with the need to Adam and Eve to generate children?
Yes, it is part of God's plan, but then is lust the only motivator for men?  Do you include the desire for children as a lustful emotion in men and in women?

Thanks for your comments. indianabob

[YellowStone]

Absolutely Alex, that is why even we (believers, walking in the spirit) are not yet perfect, but only a shadow of what we too will become. Adam may have known love in part, as do we, but it was his lust (idolatry of the heart, self seeking) that would make him choose his wife over the commandment of God (again, the epitomy of carnal thinking, of which we're all guilty

Eph.4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

The reality is, that if we did love in its purest form, we would never get married, and we would be as it is in heaven, neither married, nor given in marriage, but one with God (Imitating Christ). Our prime reason for marriage is because of the war raging in our members and our lack of self-control (fruit of the spirit). This too is a part of the plan.
Rom.8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Hi Gregor,

I have been away for far to long.

I bolded your words because as they are worded, it would seem you believe that God had no say in it at all. Really?   I am thinking that Adam had very little choice in the matter. By no means am I suggesting that God "forced" Adam to lust over Eve; rather, I am simply suggesting that Adam was not well enough equipped Spiritually to do anything but what he did.

This of course puts the entire onus back on us whom by our own admission, live by the Spirit:

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 

Who then has caused the greater wrong? Adam, who was blind to the Spirit, or those who sin still, even though the have Spiritual eyes enough to see? Of course this is a rhetorical question.

Please know that I am posting the following Scripture in reference to me, myself and I alone.

Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?  
Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.  

The simple fact that each one of us has only been given what God wants us to have. Some more than others, and some less.

Eph 4:7  But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

How then we dare even look upon the deeds of another?

You then state and I quote: "Our prime reason for marriage is because of the war raging in our members and our lack of self-control (fruit of the spirit). "

I think perhaps you have forgotten the instruction given to both Adam and Eve by God himself.

Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.      

Ah, but were they married? I will let the Scriptures answer this.

Matt 19:4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'  
Matt 19:5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'  ?  
Matt 19:6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." 

Yes, God made Eve out of Adam, they were indeed one flesh. They were blessed and told to be: "fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth"

This is in stark contrast to your reasoning behind marriage.

Once again, I will ask a similar question as before. If God has planned one to marry, who will stand up to him and say: 'NO!!'

I hope I have not offended anyone.

Love in Christ our redeemer,
Darren

[Gregor]

Hi Gregor,

I tend to agree with the quote from your message on types as follows:

The reality is, that if we did love in its purest form, we would never get married, and we would be as it is in heaven, neither married, nor given in marriage, but one with God (Imitating Christ). Our prime reason for marriage is because of the war raging in our members and our lack of self-control (fruit of the spirit). This too is a part of the plan.
Rom.8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

HOWEVER:  How does this fit in with the need to Adam and Eve to generate children?
Yes, it is part of God's plan, but then is lust the only motivator for men?  Do you include the desire for children as a lustful emotion in men and in women?

Thanks for your comments. indianabob

Greetings,
Hopefully you've read Rays teachings on how it's a myth that Adam and Eve were created perfectly in God's image but then "fell" after eating the forbidden fruit?? Adding to that, here's what I see:
We know from Gen.2:4 that Gen.1:28 is not chronologically factual, but is the "birthing/creating" or history of God's plan, and that it includes blessing man and populating the earth. We also know from Gen. 2:5 that  the "fall" of man is part of Gods plan, because Gen.3:23 says God sent him (Adam) out of the garden to "till the ground." thereby fulfilling the need mentioned in Gen.2:5. Now, back to Gen.1:28, we know that the only way God could truly "bless" us (in our carnal nature) would be to grace us with His son to complete the process of creating us in His image (spiritual nature). We see that God tells the serpent in Gen.3:15 that Christ is coming and then in vs.16 tells the woman that "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;..." It's all part of the plan from the beginning. If the "brood of vipers" (children of the serpent) and the unbelievers never crucified Christ, then we could never be "saved" and never be completed in the image of God. God's plan will be completed. One last thing, Jesus says (Mt.19:11,12) "All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given: For there are eunuchs who were born thus from their mother's womb, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He who is able to accept it, let him accept it.

[Gregor]

Greetings Darren,
I can see how you concluded what you did by my words (and lack thereof). Please read my above post for some clarification. His ways are not our ways.  First the physical, then the spiritual - I think lust is a shadow of love. I think procreation is a shadow of God producing the children of God (born of the spirit). I believe it is all part of God's plan. Who are we, what is sin, what power could possibly thwart the plan of God? None.
Peace
G.

[YellowStone]

Hi Gregor,

I am glad that I caused no offense.

You responded with: I believe it is all part of God's plan. Who are we, what is sin, what power could possibly thwart the plan of God? None.

And I agree 100%!!!!!   NONE!!  

Love in Christ,

Darren

[Gregor]

Greetings Darren and all,

I am very grateful to be a part of this forum. I recently found the following article of Rays (Thanks Kat, keep up the good work!!): (Sorry I don't know how to post the actual link )

forums.bible-truths.com >  > Introductions, Announcements, and More of Ray's Teachings > Transcripts of Ray's Audio's > Biblestudy on 'Love' 

The more I learn, the less I really know. I'm grateful that Ray has done so much of the homework for our benefit, and I hope that I will learn not to use such ambiguous words which cause confusion. Mt.7:7,8.
All the best,
in Christ,
G.

[DuluthGA]

Hey G.

Just read this thread... did you read that section on Ray's "Adam and Eve" transcript where the word 'rib' did not get translated correctly?  Very insightful.  Is rather lengthly... I have put together an abbreviated version if you would be interested.

   

[Gregor]

Greetings DuluthGA,
I vaguely remember something I read about the rib, but would love to read it again. Thanks.
G.

[DuluthGA]

Here is link from 06 Mobile conference:  http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html  "Adam and Eve" is about two-thirds of the way down.  I haven't changed anything, just left a lot out (pages) about the creation days and the Garden of Eden:

From the Hebrew Interlinear, reading from right to left:
Gen 1: 27     And He is creating, Elohim, the human in the image of Him, in the image of Elohim He creates him, male and female He creates them.

And now from the Concordant Version:
Gen1: 27   And creating is the Alueim [God] humanity in His Image.  In the Image of the Alueim [God] He creates it.  Male and female He creates them.

Did you get that?  God is creating man in OUR image.  Clearly the point is made that creating mankind in the image of God is in the indefinite tense.... and not in the past tense as in the King James and most bibles.  The creation continues.

God wants children in HIS VERY OWN IMAGE.  This is God's plan.  This is God's purpose.  This is the reason for the creation of humanity.  This is "The WILL of the Father."

New Testament, Rom 8: 29   For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be [complete is yet future] CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

There are two things here.  Man is created in the image of God.... But did you catch it?  The female is created in the image of God... therefore God is female.  But we call Him "Him," so He's male too.  HE'S BOTH.

..... when it comes to male and female, they are both equally in the image of God, or being made in the image of God, or in the image of God He's making 'them.'  It's both ways.... It's repeated twice there.

So God created man in His image, but then in the image of God, "He created them male and female."  Female is in the image of God, God is female.  God is male and female.  Femininity is in God.  That's why He took that and made a representation of that, in the form of a woman.  That's God!  Just as much as the man is God.

I think some of you women have felt slighted over the years, that God is not a woman.... God in His image He created a woman, yet the only way He could do that is that woman was in God.  And then He created out of that (from Himself) the woman.

So when we talk about the man and the woman now, we're talking about in the image of God Himself, in both of them.

I don't want to get in trouble with this next thing here.  I've shied away from it a little bit.  That is, how long were these days of creation....But I have felt for many, many years that the creation days are not 24-hour days.

**** Insert:  Here Ray goes on at considerable length--- about the garden of Eden--- 4 pages about it—plus how each of the seven days of creation were probably a long time each – and how it all jives with the actual age of the earth per the measurement of 2096 meters of ice core in Russia that puts the earth at about 100,060 years old .... And his point is... so maybe the earth is more than 6000 years old.

... In my heart and mind I don't believe that Adam tilled the garden and took care of the garden..... I don't know how big the garden was... then he named all the animals and everything in a few hours before sunset. (?)  [Naming animals Gen 2: 19, (guessing) maybe 6000 species ....... I just don't believe that.  I believe it took certainly months if not years.

.... Can't you see the longing here (of Adam while he was busy doing all that), over a long period of time?  I think it was at least years.  He didn't have a mate, he looked for one and even God admitted that it was not good for man to continue forever without a mate [Gen 2: 18].  I'll make him one, but not today.  Now, then He says but there was none found for him. [Gen 2: 20]

So we're told God took a rib and closed it back up and made a woman out of the rib.  Now He then said, wake up Adam I've got something for you.  He wakes up Adam and He brings him to the woman Eve.  [Gen 2: 21-23]

And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
[22] And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
[23] And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Is that what he said?  Would you like to know what the Hebrew says?.... The Concordance didn't even get it right......  But I got 5 other translations that got it right.... [see further down.]  That is not what he said.  He was longing for a mate, God acknowledged it was not good for the man to be alone, and said I'll make him a mate..... where did the woman come from?  The woman is in the image of God.  God didn't make man and then make woman out of the side or image of man.  NO, it plainly says:

Gen 1: 27     And He is creating, Elohim, the human in the image of Him, in the image of Elohim He creates him, male and female He creates them.

Female is created in the image of God.  There is female in God.  God is female just as much as God is male.  Where did HE get the idea of femininity?  It's in Him, it's a part of Him.  Adam is longing for this part of him that is missing.  Maybe he didn't fully understand what testosterone was, but he was feeling the effects of it and not only that, he had nobody to talk to.  He talked to God..... And (Adam might say to God)... And I noticed all those animals I named, they all have a partner.  I was wondering why it is I don't have a partner God, why is that?

So... the female came out from God.  That's where it originated, God is female just as much as He is male and now He creates the man, and the man has no female counterpart.  The animals do, he doesn't.  But he longed for it and God admits that he shouldn't be alone like this.  I've got to make him a mate, but not today.  I'm saying it was years later.

So He take something out of Adam (notice He didn't make the woman out of the dust of the ground,) He took something out of Adam to make the female.  We're told it was a rib.  I think we're told wrong.

Adam looked at her and instantly knew?  But that's not what he said, he didn't say "This is bone of my bone."  Here is what he said, I'll give you the translation from James Moffet.  He looked at her and said, "this AT LAST is bone of my bone!"....... where it says, "this is now," that word 'now' means "at last," finally someone for me.

The New World Translation says "This is at last bone of my bone."
The New American Version says "This one at last is bone of my bone."
The New Revised Standard Version says "This at last is bone of my bone."
The Living Bible says and I like this one "This is it! She is part of my own bones and flesh, this is it, Adam exclaimed.

So first of all he was excited.  I mean, what a beauty, I mean come on, all for me.... He waited a long time, finally after all these years, finally someone for me.... How did he know it was bone of his bone?

.... God didn't say, Adam I know you're going to wonder where this woman came from.  I put you to sleep and I took a rib, I made her.  No, he could tell, he looked and saw and he said, that's me, you come from me.  How did he know that?  He looked, he had something before he went to sleep.... he had something, and when he woke up and God brought him to the woman, he didn't have it anymore.  She had it!  What do you suppose that was?  He, just like God, was male and female.  God is male and female, Adam was male and female.  God took the female part and made a woman out of it.  Adam saw that what he had was now gone, it's over there.  She came from me, that's bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh, she came out of me.

Now can you see any spiritual connection in all this?  How God is longing for a complement, a counterpart, someone to complement someone.  It says a counterpart in the Greek, a complement, or a help meet... to make him complete.

That's what God is longing for.  Where is it going to come from?  Out of Him.  He has one Son, Jesus Christ, we are sons in the making.

...In the Hebrew the word is # 6763 – tsela, and it can be translated 'rib' and 'door side' and  'chamber.'  In Ezekiel, 10 times this same word translated rib is translated chamber.  A chamber-maid is usually someone who tends to the house, but specifically the bedroom.  If you look up chamber, the definition is a private room.  The bedroom is your most private room.  Our sexual anatomy is called our private parts.  Can you put it together?  This is not a rib.  He took the femininity from him and made a woman.  First He put it in the man, and then He took it from the man and made a woman out of it.

[Gregor]

Thanks for the info DuluthGA.

Ray's quotes in blue, mine in black:

.... God didn't say, Adam I know you're going to wonder where this woman came from.  I put you to sleep and I took a rib, I made her.  No, he could tell, he looked and saw and he said, that's me, you come from me.  How did he know that?

From observing the animals. I would imagine that after seeing a baby animal born it would be obvious to Adam that a bird begets a bird, and a cat begets a cat, etc. etc and therefore a human begets a human. Afterall, like Ray presumes, it probably would have been a long time that Adam spent naming and observing the animals. This is also where I would presume that Adam knew what a father and mother were, Gen.2:24, considering he had neither in the flesh. I also imagine this is where Adam learned the visible differences between the male, penis bearing animals, and their female, breast bearing animal counterparts.

He looked, he had something before he went to sleep.... he had something, and when he woke up and God brought him to the woman, he didn't have it anymore.  She had it!  What do you suppose that was?

Eve maybe had long hair as a covering? and breasts (obviously like other mamals for nursing their young), and what was she missing that he had - obviously the male penis (like the male animals have)?

He, just like God, was male and female.  God is male and female, Adam was male and female.  God took the female part and made a woman out of it.  Adam saw that what he had was now gone, it's over there.  She came from me, that's bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh, she came out of me.

I think Ray's mistaken here. God has no physical body, Adam did. I highly doubt that Adam was a hermaphrodite or a pseudohermaphrodite.

Now can you see any spiritual connection in all this?  How God is longing for a complement, a counterpart, someone to complement someone.  It says a counterpart in the Greek, a complement, or a help meet... to make him complete.

The spiritual connection I see is that God does display both male/female characteristics:
- source of life (Combination of characteristics & result of male & female's union). In the natural when the "two shall become one" their combined characteristics are turned into one new baby.
- giver of the Seed
- Nurturer
- Comforter
- Protector
- Help meet
- I'm sure the list could go on.
But let's remember, God is spirit. In the spirit, we too can posess both male and female qualities (ie: fruit of the spirit) and one day will be neither male nor female, neither married, nor given in marriage, and also one with God. Again, we're getting into speculation as to what this means - see the threads on our resurrected bodies. Do angels, part of the heavenly host, have reproductive organs or do their bodies look like a Ken/Barbie doll below the belt, including the exclusion of an anus?? Do angels have belly buttons?? Speculation that I just don't know the answer to at this point.

That's what God is longing for.  Where is it going to come from?  Out of Him.  He has one Son, Jesus Christ, we are sons in the making.

Sons and Daughters, more accurately children of God. Regardless of our "gender thinking" we will always be children of God, even when we've become perfected after the resurrection - just like in the natural we grow up and move out from under our parents authority, but will always be biologically sons & daughters. Spiritually, when we grow up we are not under the authority of the Mosaic Law, but under the Law of the Spirit, we become one with God. Here on earth we are not yet perfected, but then we shall be.

...In the Hebrew the word is # 6763 – tsela, and it can be translated 'rib' and 'door side' and  'chamber.'  In Ezekiel, 10 times this same word translated rib is translated chamber.  A chamber-maid is usually someone who tends to the house, but specifically the bedroom.  If you look up chamber, the definition is a private room.  The bedroom is your most private room.  Our sexual anatomy is called our private parts.  Can you put it together?  This is not a rib.  He took the femininity from him and made a woman.  First He put it in the man, and then He took it from the man and made a woman out of it.

Again, I think this is grasping at straws. I don't think that Adam was a hermaphrodite/pseudohermaphrodite. The word can be translated as rib and when left as that it still makes just as perfect sense. God made Adam out of dust; I'm sure an actual rib wouldn't be much of a stretch for God. Remember the vision in Ezk.37? God can take bones out of the "valley" and cover them in flesh. (Does valley of the shadow of death ring a bell seeing as we're talking types?) Do you think Adam was actually missing anything visible? Only breasts would be visibly missing - Remember the hair (pubic too) is a covering. The idea that Adam had internal sexual organs ie: uterus/overies that were removed would not be a visible thing, even on Eve. Nor would the horomones which largely determine our physical traits that differ between man/woman.

On a happy note, I can agree with Ray saying the correct translation would include the phrase "Now at last" or to that effect at the beginning of the verse 2:23.

Just my opinion, so take it as you will.
Your brother in Christ,
G.

[DuluthGA]

Pretty good Gregor, but I think you missed a few points.

Ray said:  ...he didn't have it anymore.  She had it!  What do you suppose that was?  I'm thinking it was not long hair or breasts... but the female external genitalia.  Not the penis, bonk!  Adam still had his.

I think Ray's mistaken here. God has no physical body,

Gregor, c'mon... of course Ray was being figurative here.  Don't be goofy.

Good to hear what your spiritual connotations are... mine are similar, but with the word WHOLENESS added to it... and a feeling of MUCH MORE FEMALE EQUALITY IN HIS SPIRIT than God's entire Word renders outright without having to dig dig dig for it.

I LOVED hearing this message from Ray for this very sort of "women's equality" reason.  And to a woman, it DOES matter if it's a rib or a chamber for a variety of deep and not just superfluous reasons.  A liberating insight to be heralded by women abroad!

I am always sort of tickled and awed to think about God ~the mystery~ we will not know completely into the future.  Of course we will be sexless per Scripture.  The actual discerning of spiritual matters, as you too speculate you just don't know, are to me, somewhere in like the sixteenth dimension, if that is even a concept, [out of bounds] and I deal with this attempt to grasp it daily and continually chuckle to myself.  This paper of Ray's brought a few things home to me personally.

I appreciate your views with thanks to you as a forum friend!

J.

[Deborah-Leigh]

And the two shall become one flesh....This mystery IS VERY GREAT.... Eph 5 : 31..

Have you ever experienced passion that blurs your boundaries and melts dividing lines between you and your spouse? I am not taliking about out of the body experiences either. 

I believe that our union with God will be of such a nature that boundaries will blur too.

Eph 3 : 19 That you may really come to know practically, through experience for yourselves, the love of Christ, which far surpasses mere knowledge, that you may be  FILLED THROUGH ALL YOUR BEING unto all the fullness of God, and may have the riches measure of the  divine Presence, and BECOME A BODY WHOLLY FILLED AND FLOODED WITH GOD HIMSELF.

I do not believe that Paul is here  referring to human carnal sensuality.

We taste that the Lord is good not in a tactile sensual way but in a spiritual way and as we are weaned off our taste for carnality, literal thinking and our own limitations we are then able to glimpse what Paul prayed for his brethren that they would be wholly filled and flooded with God Himself.  There IS joy in His Presence but just think about what the emotion is in union with Christ not in a genital way but in a 2filled through all your being" embrace of God. Are you ready to disintegrate and be flooded in the union of God filling your being? 

Ray's revelation on Adam and Eve can be brought down to carnal thinking but it should rather be viewed in the Spirit of Christs perfection and His work to raise children for God as brothers and sisters of Christ in preparation to be the BRIDE.

This is all spiritual not sexual or gender limited. This is cosmic in its proportions, boundless in its apllication and limitless in its gift to humankind being made into the image of Christ to be His Bride.

Peace to you

Arcturus

[Kat]

Hi Janice and Arcturus,

Thanks for bringing this out, this is a very important aspect of God that is not taught, at least I've never heard anyone else speak on this.
I thought I would bring this part up, from the same transcript.  I think this excerpt further expresses what Arcturus was saying.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.0.html -------

When a man and a woman are united in sexual intercourse.....They are one flesh, in that relationship, you see.  And that is why you're not suppose to fornicate with prostitutes.  Because when you're joined to a prostitute you're one flesh too, and that's an abomination.  You cling to your wife, not your wife and your girl friend and the local whore.  Your wife, because your one flesh, you see.
This is a great mystery it says.  But I'm speaking concerning Christ and His church.  The relationship of Christ with the church, it typified by the relationship of a loving husband and a loving wife in sexual intercourse.  When they are so emotionally intertwined with one another, that they are literally one flesh.  This is the relationship we're going to have with God.  Christ refers to the church as the Bride of Christ. 
The bride is going to be all decorated, by that we mean, made spotless and sure and clean, character wise.  A fitting Bride for the creator of the universe.
v
v
When Paul comes along and says this very thing we're talking about, he's talking about Christ and the church.
You see it's a great spiritual lesson, this union of a husband and a wife, what it should be.  How a husband should love a wife and how a wife should love a husband.  I mean really love each other dearly.
This is how Christ loves the church, and died for it.
Just as the husband and wife become one flesh, God wants to be that intimate with humanity, like one flesh.

John 10:30  "I and the Father are one!"

They're not the same person, but 'one,' there's a difference.
But one, same spirit, same mind, same attitude, same character, same power, same strength, same wisdom, same purpose, they are one.
And that's what God wants us to be with Him, that close, one.
----------------------------------------------------

Interesting to look at these things that give us a deeper spiritual understanding of the relationship of the spirit.

mercy, peace and love
Kat