Jesus is God?

[vicolive]

My apologies for last posting a RELIGIOUS TOPIC.
I hope this  question is  within the rules.
I have always believed as Ray states about God and Jesus,but, one flesh.
I have recently had some JW'S come to visit,and their beliefs are different,they have been very persistant on what they believe,I need one powerful scripture to prove  them otherwise.{all scripture is powerful} but it seems they dont want to hear my reasoning.
I have come to believe Ray's teachings,and now Im not attending any church as I feel over the  years I have  been misled .Is there a church that  has the correct teachings {all of them} as Ray does? and if so which one would it be.
Thank you
V.

[Craig]

I can only suggest read and study your bible and Ray's teachings.

As for one verse???  If I gave you 1000 verses you won't change their mind.

Craig

[rk12201960]

HI V
Been there done that got the scares to prove it. I was a jw for over 13 years and I've learned way more from God via Ray in the last 10 months.

Do you want the scriptures for them or are you in the middle?
Because you can show them for as long as you like but until God writes it in the hearts its for nothing.

They don;t believe God created evil. they think satan was a good spirit then turned evil (that makes God a failure, would you want to worship a God who can;t control his creation?

Take it from me unless God pulls them there is no way they are going to come.
I've tried.

I strongly suggest to study Rays teachings and let them on their way.
I truly hope this helps.

Randy
PS
How can they believe their god is perfect when they believe that satan turned evil on his own without Gods direction or creation.
Isn't that a mistake? Think about it.
Don't waste your time on their false teachings.

[Kat]

Hi vicolive,

Here is an email Ray answered about 'where to go to church.'

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1304.0.html ------

People ask me about "where to go to church" almost on a daily basis. They know that their church and all other churches that they know of, do not teach the truth (worse: they teach lies and heresy).  And so they think that maybe I know of a church a few blocks from where their from or a few miles from their home that does teach all of the truths of God.  Sorry, there is not such thing that I am aware of.

If there were churches scattered through BABYLON THE GREAT WHORE, then there would be no need for God to admonish those whom He is choosing, to "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE" (Rev. 18:4).  Are we to just come out of her spiritually, but remain good social friends with them on a weekly basis?

Church is not now and never was, a physical building to congregate in to worship God.  Could all the hundreds of thousands of Israelites congregate inside the tiny little tabernacle in the wilderness?  Could ALL JUDEA congregate in the tiny Temple in Jeruslem every sabbath?  The synagogues became corrupted and the churches today are corrupted. So where do you want to go?  If you want fellowship why not join a social club and keep the false religion out of your fellowship.

Jesus taught us that we are to worship God in spirit and in truth, not in this mountain or in Jerusalem, or in a building, or another other "place" that is corrupted.  I can't tell people what to do. If "christian fellowship" means more to them than "godly worship," then I guess they just  have to keep looking.

Being a follower of Jesus Christ was never designed to be a "feel good religion" as many christian churches promise if you join their particular tents on living a worldly life for Jesus.  I trully never miss, "CHURCH"!  I "go to church" every time I open my Bible."

God be with you,
Ray

[Grateful]

Good afternoon!

My JW neighbors once told me that Jesus is the SON OF God, but NOT God.   Now, I know that Jesus IS Jehovah, the Creator God, but is He, in fact :  GOD ??  I know also, that Jesus and the Father are TWO different Beings, but ONE in Spirit (They have the SAME Spirit indwelling in both of them).   So, what IS the correct answer to :  Is Jesus God??  I'd like to know this for myself, at least, even if I cannot convince any JW of whatever the actual Truth IS.  Can anyone help me here?  (BTW, my JW neighbor lady did NOT believe me when I told her 2 years ago that Jesus is Jehovah.....she said,  "Huh?  You've lost me there."  Since I was so new to Ray's BT website then, I did not have the facts to back up my utterance, without GIVING HER the entire transcript of Ray's revelatory paper on Jesus.  So, since then, I've been pretty discreet as to WHO I tell WHAT to, with regards to Bible Truth.com's teachings.  Several HAVE been receptive, and perhaps a useful seed has been planted in the rest.  I DON'T enjoy arguing with people about Spiritual Truths when it's highly-obvious to me that their mindset is adamantly set against anything different from "what they've been taught" all their lives.

So, anyway, is Jesus "God",  or is the FATHER "God" and Jesus the "Son only"?? (I do not say the latter lightly!)  I tried to find the reference on this in a search on BT Search engine, and couldn't, so I'm asking for help from any of you who have been in BT for far longer than I have (which is 2 years) and who KNOW the answer to my question.  Thanks ever so much!!

God's rich Love and blessings to ALL!       Have a BEAUTIFUL evening, why don't you??!!   

Linda

[rjsurfs]

Linda,

Ray went over exactly what you are asking about at the Nashville Conference this year... you can listen at this link:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2641.0.html

I see the transcripts are posted as well but I think they're not in exact order.  It is quite a bit of material that he presented to answer this or I would post a quote here.

Bobby

[Kat]

Hi Linda,

I found a couple of emails that I think will help 


http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3052.0.html ------------------

"God" is not the personal last name of Jesus' Father. God is more like a title, more like "Christ," which is not Jesus' last name either, but a title--Jesus is THE CHRIST, and Jesus is GOD.

    If One is:

    THE CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH (Col. 1:15-18)

    POSSESSING IMMORTAL LIFE.(John 17:1-3)

    HAS ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH (Matt. 28:18)

    Then that One IS GOD!  Jesus filfills all three of those

    statements of fact, as does His Father. That is why

    Both Jesus and His Father are ONE (John 10:30).

    God be with you,

    Ray

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3443.msg25690#msg25690 ------------

Ah, but the Scriptures do refer to Jesus Christ as "God."

[1]  "But unto the SON [Jesus] He says, Thy throne, O GOD..." (Heb. 1:08).

[2]  "I am Alpha and Omega...says the Lord [Jesus[, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY [GOD]"  (Rev. 1:08).

[3]  "And Thomas answered and said unto Him [Jesus], My Lord, AND MY GOD" (John 20:28).

[4]  "Who [Jesus] being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be EQUAL WITH GOD" (Phil. 2:6).

[5]  "Why doth this Man [Jesus] thus speak blasphemies?  Who can forgive sins, BUT GOD ONLY?" (Mark 2:08).

[6]  "Now unto Him [Jesus] that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His [Jesus] glory with exceeding joy. To the only wise GOD OUR SAVIOUR [Jesus Christ], be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen" (Jude 24-25).

One or two of these it could be argued refers to God the Father. But there are enough statements to prove Jesus wears the title "God."  Then, there is the whole matter of Jesus Himself being the "God" of the Old Testament which spoke to men, etc., seeing that the Father has never spoken to any man directly with a voice, and Jesus and the God the Old Testament did.

God be with you,

Ray

[Grateful]

O THANK YOU, Kat!!       NOW I "capisce" !!  (that's Italian for "understand", pronounced "ka - peesh' " )

<3<3<3 ,

Linda

[vicolive]

Thank you everyone for your posts.
Im in the same  boat as Linda,I told my JW friend 'If I cant believe that Jesus is God then I cant listen to anymore of your teachings,she asked me if I would continue in her teachings and put all that on the back burner for now.... but to me thats a biggie......
I just find it amazing how I have sat under pastors for 20 years and felt safe in the teachings,,I used to think, what if our teachings are wrong and others ARE right..but then thought 'NO"..
The reason Im up in this now is that my mother died last year and I really started thinking about when is she/spirit/soul...I was taught in my church, 'sudden death,instant glory...so I was content with that thinking that {as I was taught} she went right away to heaven...
But something bothered me in my spirit,thats when I came to Rays site and was blown away by what I read...I was shocked to read the real truth, that my mum knew she was dying but didnt know that she was dead..
It was the very same week the JW'S came knocking and I blabbered out what I had read, and they  do believe that truth.. so I thought if they are right about that also maybe they are right about other scriptures.
My family think Ihave lost it as Im repeating the truths Ray teachers,its confounding to unlearn something you have  believed for many years,,, its also scary to know that you have been misled....
Thats why I had asked for the ONE scripture to make my JW friend know that she may afterall be wrong...
Thanks again all
V.

[vicolive]

P.S.
sorry,,,finally I just said to my JW friend ;when I get to heaven/paradise who will I see there Jesus or God,or both.... they didnt giive me a straight answer,so is there a scipture that tells me of this truth?
Thanks
V.

[Chris R]

Hi V

It can be frustrating at first, but know this, of all the called, only a few will be chosen, and it is not us that does this choosing.

Luk 10:22  All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and [he] to whom the Son will reveal [him].

Read this a few times carefully.

Peace

Chris R

[Chris R]

Hi,

You should read all the material on www.bibletruths.com it will help you in your journey.

Peace

Chris R

[WAR_OF_THE_WORDS]

I believe that Jesus was God in the flesh when he came to earth the first time so what if when Jesus said, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as my Father in heaven is perfect," it was the same as when God said, "Let there be light?" When God said let there be light, there was light. So when Jesus said, "Be ye perfect...." you were made perfect. Just a deep thought.

[hillsbororiver]

Hi WOTW,

I agree with your thought process here, the perfection is a process presently being accomplished but has yet to be completed, just as we have the temporary light of the sun at some future point we will have the eternal light of God.

Then truly the prophecy of "Let there be Light" will be fulfilled spiritually.

Rev 21:23  And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

His Peace to you, and by the way; Welcome to the Forum!

Joe

[gott_cha]

Is Jesus GOD?
He is not the FATHER,..He is from the FATHER,..and is the only begotten son at this time,..He is the first fruits of all creation.......is He GOD? no! He is not the FATHER.
When He prayed in the garden,..did He pray to himself,..or the FATHER?
Also, He told the desciples and the people to worship the FATHER and HIM only

In revelations that great angel, (JESUS) stands before John,..and John falls down to worship Him,....John gets a rebuke and is told not to do that,...worship the FATHER only.
Is Jesus God? in a sense He is,..he is of God and from HIM,..and Was the first being created in the family of GOD,...but He is not the FATHER.

The word GOD is a title,..like a last name if you will,.......If im a jones,..my son is a jones as well,...but he is not the Father,...I am,...but yet he is still a jones.

The doctrine of the trinity,...3 in one yet all the same,was never taught until the councils of the Roman churches in the 300's ad. That can be traced through written church history and the student of the WORD can see where doctrinal herasies entered in on the time line.

The apostles never did, nor  Paul ever believe or teach that CHRIST was the FATHER,..they correctly understood HIM to be the First Fruits or the only begotten son whom was sent to do the will of the FATHER,........
Paul even went on to say "that any other Gospel" or teaching brought by them, or even a messenger(angel)was damnable and a curse or anathema.

From "my own" understanding and point of view, If they didnt teach or believe it,...why would I?

[gott_cha]

And on the other hand,...none of us truly can know,.....yet we will know all things then, and only then......

I hate looking dimly thru a glass.......dont y'all?

[indianabob]

Gott cha,

If I recall, god begins to remove the smoke from the glass as we begin to obey.

It's not that God doesn't want us to know spiritual secrets, it's just that he doesn't want to overload our mental circuits with data that we cannot yet handle.  First obey in faith and then we begin to hear a still small voice in our conscious mind leading ever so patiently.

Bob

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Gott cha

I believe that The Father is God. The Son is God. The Father is greater than the Son. The Son came from the Father The Father did not come from the Son. The Son will return to the Father all things and will submit Himself also to the Father laying down all that is given to Him by the Father once the Plan of the Father accomplished through the Son is fulfilled.  Simple!  When not made so confusing by other illusions, deceptions and false teachings like the Trinity deceptive doctrines of man. 

Hello War'

I do not think that any one is perfect. Just look. Non are resurrected to judgement yet. For me, the process of perfection is still going on and the judgement day is still up ahead!

If you read the LOF Ray expounds precisely by revelation that this is a fact that I believe is glibly overlooked, ignored and disapproved and outright rejected and disdained by Mystery Babylon via its multitude of false teachings. Either this or they just do not know! ...do not want to know...or both.

Welcome to the Forum!

Peace be to you

Arcturus

[WAR_OF_THE_WORDS]

Is Jesus GOD?
He is not the FATHER,..He is from the FATHER,..and is the only begotten son at this time,..He is the first fruits of all creation.......is He GOD? no! He is not the FATHER.
When He prayed in the garden,..did He pray to himself,..or the FATHER?
Also, He told the desciples and the people to worship the FATHER and HIM only

In revelations that great angel, (JESUS) stands before John,..and John falls down to worship Him,....John gets a rebuke and is told not to do that,...worship the FATHER only.
Is Jesus God? in a sense He is,..he is of God and from HIM,..and Was the first being created in the family of GOD,...but He is not the FATHER.

The word GOD is a title,..like a last name if you will,.......If im a jones,..my son is a jones as well,...but he is not the Father,...I am,...but yet he is still a jones.

The doctrine of the trinity,...3 in one yet all the same,was never taught until the councils of the Roman churches in the 300's ad. That can be traced through written church history and the student of the WORD can see where doctrinal herasies entered in on the time line.

The apostles never did, nor  Paul ever believe or teach that CHRIST was the FATHER,..they correctly understood HIM to be the First Fruits or the only begotten son whom was sent to do the will of the FATHER,........
Paul even went on to say "that any other Gospel" or teaching brought by them, or even a messenger(angel)was damnable and a curse or anathema.

From "my own" understanding and point of view, If they didnt teach or believe it,...why would I?

John 14:8  Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9. Jesus saith unto him, have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10.  Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works......................Before Abraham was I am.......

[rjsurfs]

At the Nashville Conference Ray talked about unity.

When we hear of Elohim, El, or Jehovah Elohim, it is as much from the Father as it is Christ. Because they are one.   
Jesus Christ is the spokesman for His Father.  No matter what Christ says, He is the mouth piece for the Father.  He's not Charley McCartney, He's not a puppet, but He is the mouth piece for the Father, they are in agreement.  I don't know if the proper phonetics and all that are given to Him by the Father and if He really has no latitude of His own. 
But in spirit, the whole thing has to do with spirit and attitude, they are ONE. 

So when it says in Acts 5:30 " The God of our fathers raised up Jesus,"   But when we read in the OT, "the God of our fathers" it was Jesus.  But what I want to show by that is the scripture themselves, gives us the latitude to recognize that no matter who the person is, whether it be the Father or the Son, it's always God, ok. 
It's always God. 
Even Christ in His humiliation, in His physical form, where He was severely limited as a human being.  It may say it's Jesus Christ speaking, but it doesn't matter if it says it's Jesus Christ speaking or the OT it's Jehovah speaking.  We know if someone is speaking it's NOT the Father.  Because He does not speak, except through the Son. 

So when Christ said, "I have come to reveal the Father" or in John 1 :18 where John says Christ came to reveal or unfold the Father, it doesn't necessarily mean that now Christ is going to tell us all about the Father.  He's going to tell us how the Father communicates now and in the pass.  All we have to recognize is the Father communicates through the Son. 
So when Jesus Christ said, "before Abraham was, I Am"  they should have begun to realize, wait a minute are You saying that was You?  You talked to Moses? 
Now we know that some of the apostles, got it for sure.  Paul understood that spiritual Rock was Christ, that is who it was. 

Now at the last supper Philip did not know, he just didn't know.  So He said "have I been with you so long, and you ask who the Father is, if You have seen Me you have seen the Father." 
Then He went on in different places to say a number of things, for He said;
"I and the Father are One."  (John 10:30)
"I am in Him and He is in Me, We are One."  (John 17:21)
"The Words I speak, I speak of the Father." (John 12:50)

and

...but we become one in spirit, one in perfection and one in love.  He goes on to say, "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be one in Us..... that they may be one, even as We are one,  I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in one;" (John 17:21-22)

These are some of the reasons you will hearing me say more, everything is one.  It all comes down to one thing.  There is one God and God is above everything there is.  There is one God. 
So everything really is ONE.  All the other little twos, threes and fours are really of no consequence, compared to the ONE, see.  The One, the all.
So we read in Eph., Paul understood this, he didn't copy it from some other place, he understood it. 

Eph 4:1-3  "I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the calling with which you are called, with all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, forbearing one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit..."

See "the unity of the Spirit" there is the key, we are one in and through SPIRIT. 
We are individuals, I have my personality, somebody else has their personality and some don't have a personality, you know.   But we're all individuals.  But we can be all one in spirit, that is what binds us together as one, spirit.  So "endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit." 

This was a great conference and the transcript can be read at this link:  http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html

However, I believe this topic is best covered in the Trinity paper on the main page at:
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html

I could post multiple quotes from it as it is all so good... Ray really breaks it down.
Here is a teaser:

Will all my readers please note that Jesus DID NOT say "I and the Father, We are one GOD," did He? No, He did not!

Do the Scriptures, however, tell us that there is only ONE GOD? Yes, they do.

Do the Scriptures, tell us WHO that ONE God is? Yes, they do.

Do the Scriptures tell us what the relationship of Jesus Christ is with that ONE God? Yes, they do.

In fact, all of these things are answered in ONE Scripture.

You will have to read the paper to find out what that ONE scripture is... along with many others.

Bobby