Wars? Government? ----

[Joey Porter]

I actually want to follow up on the spiritual meaning in the account of Peter with the sword.

Jesus warned him that those who live by the sword will die by the sword.  If we look at this in spiritual terms, it certainly fits right in with the parable of the minas in Luke:

Luke 19
22"His master replied, 'I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant!

[bobf]

Here something of interest.  Don't know what it means but its interesting that the "blessing" Esau receives is that he will "live by the sword."

Genesis 27:38 And Esau said unto his father, Hast thou but one blessing, my father? bless me, [even] me also, O my father. And Esau lifted up his voice, and wept.  39 And Isaac his father answered and said unto him, Behold, thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth, and of the dew of heaven from above; 40 And by thy sword shalt thou live, and shalt serve thy brother; and it shall come to pass when thou shalt have the dominion, that thou shalt break his yoke from off thy neck.

In the verses that follow Esau was seeking to kill his brother out of jealousy.

[bobf]

Another related passage.

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

[lilitalienboi16]

Guys, think of this.

"An eye for an Eye would make the world blind."
                        - Ghandi

If we fight EVIL with EVIL, EVIL IS THE WINNER. We must fight EVIL with Good, remember our fight is not with the people of this world but with greater matters.

So in the sence of protecting a loved one, one must have faith in God, because the Lord is in COMPLETE AND TOTAL CONTROLE, He will have His will be, no matter your choice of action, so why not just let it go and trust Him fully?

I also take the example of Peter and Jesus to be a lesson for us all. I know there is Deep spiritual meaning to everything Jesus said, taught, breathed, uttered, showed, exemplified - However i believe that in the Instance of Peter and Jesus there was a LITERAL meaning to what Jesus as well as Spiritual.

Sacrifice your life for another, but do not harm the other person (The enemy) in trying to sacrifice your life for that loved one that is being attacked.

[lilitalienboi16]

Another related passage.

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Amen Brother, This is the difference between those who talk the talk, and those who WALK the TALK.

In the end i think if it came down to an issue like this i would most certainly pray for Guidance and right course of Action, and that the Lords will be done, no matter how painfull it might be.

[Joey Porter]

Guys, think of this.

If we fight EVIL with EVIL, EVIL IS THE WINNER. We must fight EVIL with Good, remember our fight is not with the people of this world but with greater matters.

So in the sence of protecting a loved one, one must have faith in God, because the Lord is in COMPLETE AND TOTAL CONTROLE, He will have His will be, no matter your choice of action, so why not just let it go and trust Him fully?

Also remember, however, that we should never used God's sovereignty as a license to do nothing.  Paul beat his body and made it a slave, he ran the race to be the winner, to obtain the prize that he saught.  He did acknowledge God's sovereignty and credited all of his works to God's grace, but did not use God's sovereignty as a reason for inaction.

Remember something else that Christ said - out of the hearts of men proceed wicked thoughts and curses.  I have shown examples of how it could be possible to take physical action against someone without evil or malicious intent.  If some scenario like this came to pass, what would be our motive for taking action?  Hate, vengeance, rage?  These would all be considered sinful reasons for taking action.

It is very, very easy to say what we would do in a given situation, but to actually do it when the situation arises is something that none of us could know for sure.  I believe that only by some type of divine intervention right on the spot could I be stopped from physically defending my family from an attacker.  If it would be a sin for me to do so, I would have to confess it and bear the consequence of it.

[eutychus]

We are to love our enemies and not to return evil for evil under any condition whatsoever and instead to commit ourselves to Him who judges righteously.  And I hope that is what I would do.

Even in the case of trying to save a loved one, we have the example of Peter who tried to save Christ and Jesus rebuked Him with "all who take up the sword will die by the sword."

Christ rebuked peter because he was interfearing with the cross.



if an intruder was going to hurt a child, and you stoped him, you would be the intruder a favor!!!

Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.


Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.



I pray with all i have NONE of you are ever put in that situation.

love
chuckt

[Kevin]

Joey you asked what our motive will be. My motive would be love. For I love my family and friends. I could not stand idle and watch a loved one get killed. If something happened so fast, I dont think I would be thinking hate, rage, or vengeance. I would be thinking protect my family.
Lets say someone came into your home and started hacking your family. You mean to tell me that someone is gonna just sit on the couch with a coke in their hand and watch it happen. Im sorry but thats just not thinking realistically. I know for me that I would do everything in my God given power to stop that person.
I pray to God that nothing like this will ever happen to me or anyone else reading this.[/quote]

[leeney]

Wow, what powerful repsonses, and so many!  thank you all for your input into this subject.

 It seems these are directed to the one-on-one idea.  What are your thoughts on country against country?  Steve, you said you were a soldier?  I have a nephew who just spent several months in Iraq as a marine.  He is also a Christian, and since his tour, has become much more serious about his faith.  He sees no contraditions with his faith and his 'job'.  What are your beliefs about this, may I ask?  

 leeney

[leeney]

Oop, sorry!  Forgot to edit.  I really can spell--honest!
leeney

[gmik]

To use the reasoning that all is God's will so if an intruder entered my house to rob, kill, or pillage I should do nothing or turn the other cheek, is to also believe then that I should not go to a doctor since God must want me to be ill, sick or cancer, and I shouldn't try to intervene.  If I am walking a trail in the mtns and a bear comes at me should I just accept it or try to defend myself?  We are potter's clay, not robots.  God has given us reasoning capabilities with some common sense. Since we always don't know what God's will is at the exact moment, then all our experiences, knowledge, love, maturity etc etc come into play.  To defend yourself or your family is not the unforgivable sin.  My husband's role is a protector and to not take care of your family first you are worse than a reprobate( infidel Or something like that-I know its a verse in the Bible :oops: ) How did the topic switch from war and government to this, or am I on the wrong thread? Anyway, my 2 cents.

[rvhill]

To use the reasoning that all is God's will so if an intruder entered my house to rob, kill, or pillage I should do nothing or turn the other cheek, is to also believe then that I should not go to a doctor since God must want me to be ill, sick or cancer, and I shouldn't try to intervene.  If I am walking a trail in the mtns and a bear comes at me should I just accept it or try to defend myself?  We are potter's clay, not robots.  God has given us reasoning capabilities with some common sense. Since we always don't know what God's will is at the exact moment, then all our experiences, knowledge, love, maturity etc etc come into play.  To defend yourself or your family is not the unforgivable sin.  My husband's role is a protector and to not take care of your family first you are worse than a reprobate( infidel Or something like that-I know its a verse in the Bible :oops: ) How did the topic switch from war and government to this, or am I on the wrong thread? Anyway, my 2 cents.

Gandhi argument to this is very compelling, but for me it is very hard to accept. It goes something like this:(I can't find the quote)
If you are godly, and your family is also godly, then if you and your family die you will be with God. If the Ungodly die were will they be? If by you and your family example the ungodly may be lead to God, then your death may serve God purpose.

I am not saying I would let someone kill me and my family, but I do see and understand Gandhi's logic here.

[Joey Porter]

Joey you asked what our motive will be. My motive would be love. For I love my family and friends. I could not stand idle and watch a loved one get killed. If something happened so fast, I dont think I would be thinking hate, rage, or vengeance. I would be thinking protect my family.
Lets say someone came into your home and started hacking your family. You mean to tell me that someone is gonna just sit on the couch with a coke in their hand and watch it happen. Im sorry but thats just not thinking realistically. I know for me that I would do everything in my God given power to stop that person.
I pray to God that nothing like this will ever happen to me or anyone else reading this.

I have meditated on this for most of the day and have come to the strong conclusion that we would be putting ourselves under the letter of the law if we stood by and watched our family getting harmed without taking action - simply because we were trying to obey the commands of Christ.  We are under a new law - the law of the spirit.  Who in their right mind would not feel their spirit crying out to intervene if they were seeing their daughter getting molested or abducted, or their mother being assaulted? To stand by and do nothing would be utterly insane, and I believe it would be a sin. As pointed out by a previous poster, men are instructed to take care of their family.  

Looking at some people's views of God's sovereignty, they seem to think there is no reason to do anything at all.  But then, why would Ray have even started his site to expose those who contradict?  Why do Mike and Ray have bible conferences?  Why pray?  Why does anybody do anything?

Why not take the reverse view?  Intervene against someone who is brutalizing your family and if it's God's sovereign will for them to be brutalized, He will find a way to stop you from intervening.  But the idea of just sitting back and letting anything happen, assuming it's God's will, is just crazy.

The point of Christ saying to turn the other cheek and to love our enemies is so that we have a forgiving Christ like spirit toward all people in our daily walk.  It is instruction on how to live our lives as a whole, not for a specific moment in time in which our loved ones could be in extreme danger.

Likewise with Him not retaliating when He was being tortured before the crucifiction,  He refrained from returning evil for evil as an example of how we are to live our lives (not to mention the fact He understood full well what had to happen to fulfill the scriptures).  He allowed His flesh to be destroyed (literally) as an example of how our flesh needs to be destroyed daily over the course of a lifetime.  I really don't believe that we are expected to just let someone beat us to death.

[Kevin]

Well said Joey.
Mt26:53-Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
Why did Jesus pose this question?

[bobf]

Who in their right mind would not feel their spirit crying out to intervene if they were seeing their daughter getting molested or abducted, or their mother being assaulted.

Do you think Christ can not see when these things occur?  And yet He does not generally intervene to put an end to it.  Do you remember when Stephen was being stoned?  He looked up to Christ before He died.  Christ was watching.

Nobody is saying not to do anything about anything.  What we are to do is immitate Christ who did not return evil for evil.  When he was reviled he reviled not.  When he suffered He did not even threat in return.  Instead He commited Himself to God who judges righteously.

[Joey Porter]

Who in their right mind would not feel their spirit crying out to intervene if they were seeing their daughter getting molested or abducted, or their mother being assaulted.

Do you think Christ can not see when these things occur?  And yet He does not generally intervene to put an end to it.  Do you remember when Stephen was being stoned?  He looked up to Christ before He died.  Christ was watching.

Nobody is saying not to do anything about anything.  What we are to do is immitate Christ who did not return evil for evil.  When he was reviled he reviled not.  When he suffered He did not even threat in return.  Instead He commited Himself to God who judges righteously.

I have shown again and again how we can intervene without actually returning evil for evil.  If you believe the right thing to do would be to stand and watch your family get harmed, and believe you would be able to refrain from intervening in that situation, perhaps you're just further along than the rest of us.

[Kevin]

I think that he does intervene. If someone were breaking in my house he would intervene by using me to stop that person from causing harm.
Why did Jesus pose that question in Mt26:53? What is more evil? To stop a person from killing 10 people or just to let them go ahead and kill them.

[Joey Porter]

Another thing I would like to add - if we would try to justify ourselves by obeying what is written on the pages of our bibles, without a proper understanding of the intent behind the words, we would be making the same mistake as the pharisees, who had a legalistic view of the sabbath:

Mark 2
24The Pharisees said to him, "Look, why are they doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath?"
25He answered, "Have you never read what David did when he and his companions were hungry and in need? 26In the days of Abiathar the high priest, he entered the house of God and ate the consecrated bread, which is lawful only for priests to eat. And he also gave some to his companions."
27Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. 28So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

The pharisees obeyed the commandment just because it's what the letter commanded.  Jesus showed that there was a reason behind the letter. Just because the teachings of the NT are not "engraved in stone" does not mean that we can't get overly legalistic with them.

[bobf]

I have shown again and again how we can intervene without actually returning evil for evil.  If you believe the right thing to do would be to stand and watch your family get harmed, and believe you would be able to refrain from intervening in that situation, perhaps you're just further along than the rest of us.

I didn't see those posts so I'll go back and look.  There is nothing wrong with intervening.  I was specifically referring to intervening with evil (violence or threat of violence).

I make no claim as to what I would actually be able to do under those circumstances.  Peter swore up and down he would not deny Christ but he still did.  I am only making the case as to what we should and should not do.

[bobf]

I think that he does intervene. If someone were breaking in my house he would intervene by using me to stop that person from causing harm.
Why did Jesus pose that question in Mt26:53? What is more evil? To stop a person from killing 10 people or just to let them go ahead and kill them.

He did not intervene in the case of Stephen.  I was answering the question "who in their right mind would not want to intervene..."

In Matt 26:53 Jesus was telling Peter that He did not need Peter's sword to defend Him.  I'm saying that a gun etc. is not needed either.