something interesting

[Mickyd]

alucard....you make some very good points.

What I meant about the book of Hebrews is that even I don't think it was written by Paul....the style is more in line with the book of John in my opinion. Of coarse there is no proof that John wrote the book of John, and that's the point all together. There really is no possible way of knowing.

Lets just say for the moment that the book of Romans "Is" authentic and written by Paul. Now....compairing 1st & 2nd Corinthians and 1st & 2nd Timothy to the book of Romans...they do vary in tone even from one letter to the other but the mood of the writter could have an impact on the style, as could any number of factors. But, I would have to say...again, in my opinion, that these books are defenately written by Paul. I've probably spent more time in these 5 books than any others in the New Testament and I feel very comfortable with that statement.

It all boils down to this.....all we have to go on is what's in front of us. Has the Bible been tampered with? Of coarse it has...I don't think you would get much of an arguement on that. There are many unanswered questions and we'll probably only get an answer when we die. There is just as much controvercy over the Hebrew scriptures as well. You just never hear as much about it. Heck.....there's no historical proof that the Hebrews were ever slaves in Egypt, but again....you won't hear much about that. But, when it comes to the New Testament, everybody has an opinion.

Like I said, all we have to go on is what's in front of us. We can sit here and question it all day long or we can study the word for ourselves and let the Holy Spirit lead us.

[alucard]

alucard....you make some very good points.

What I meant about the book of Hebrews is that even I don't think it was written by Paul....the style is more in line with the book of John in my opinion. Of coarse there is no proof that John wrote the book of John, and that's the point all together. There really is no possible way of knowing.

Lets just say for the moment that the book of Romans "Is" authentic and written by Paul. Now....compairing 1st & 2nd Corinthians and 1st & 2nd Timothy to the book of Romans...they do vary in tone even from one letter to the other but the mood of the writter could have an impact on the style, as could any number of factors. But, I would have to say...again, in my opinion, that these books are defenately written by Paul. I've probably spent more time in these 5 books than any others in the New Testament and I feel very comfortable with that statement.

It all boils down to this.....all we have to go on is what's in front of us. Has the Bible been tampered with? Of coarse it has...I don't think you would get much of an arguement on that. There are many unanswered questions and we'll probably only get an answer when we die. There is just as much controvercy over the Hebrew scriptures as well. You just never hear as much about it. Heck.....there's no historical proof that the Hebrews were ever slaves in Egypt, but again....you won't hear much about that. But, when it comes to the New Testament, everybody has an opinion.

Like I said, all we have to go on is what's in front of us. We can sit here and question it all day long or we can study the word for ourselves and let the Holy Spirit lead us.

yes i'm aware of all these things and you have your opinions and i have mine and that's all that they are opinions,but on a side note it's not just the way their written but where they were written.this mianly applies to both timothy's&titus but if you read the article you'll see it's possible but didn't seem likely to the route he probly traveled plus as you see if they were written by him their very late but if forged their very early.

Also nightmare sasuke i don't have an AIM and if your asking about  corinthians 14:34-35 all that i've seen on it it's about evenly divided between people that think it was in the orginal or wasn't we probly won't know,but i will say this about it if it's original it sure went threw many strange stages.in some bibles it's after verse 9,then were it is in are bible after verse 33,and in older ones it comes after verse 40.it seems there really isn't any bible that seemed to omits it but it sure moved around a lot.

[Harryfeat]

John 7:53 and John 8:11 is not Scripture? Never knew that. Do you have any information on it? Where'd it come from?

you should be able to look any were on the internet and find information about it,you see aparently scribes in the later churches added it to give some more meaningfull stories to the gospel but it's unscriptual.


[

What makes a passage scriptural?  Does it qualify if it is part of the dead sea scrolls?  If it is part of the bible is it automatically scriptural [translation errors notwithstanding]?   Who decided that Paul's writings should be included in a bible anyway?  If you remove all of Paul's writings, does is significantly change the message of the new testament?

The bible is a compilation work.  It has many inconsistencies in it.  Yet we are told that if we can find two or more like passages then it must likely be true and inspired.

Most all of the new testament "writers" have their knowledge basis the the old testament.  The apostles were jews first familiar with the old testament scriptures and originally followed the precepts of judaism.  Why wouldn't a lot of the new testament read similar to the old testament?

Bobby makes a good point of finding truth by following the spirit of God. What makes you think that the scholars of babylon don't feel the same way?  Maybe it is a case of not seeing the forest through the trees.
Is the bible the only way to find that truth?

To me the bible is only one source of inspiration.  It is only a tool and not the be all and end all.  It was written by men.  Even inpired men have a carnal mind at best.  

The old testament was put together as a book of stories and rules to bind the people of Israel just as the bible was commissioned by the pagan Constantine.  It was essentially assembled by one man and agreed upon by a political group of bishops with minor changes. The reason for assembling the bible was essentially political.


There will never ever be an end to what humans say  should or should not be included in the bible. If you believe in Christ,  then what is quoted as His words [if you believe the quotes are accurate]  are far more important than what anyone else wrote that is included in the bible.  



If you think about it, the bible as it  was translated  is the primary basis for the false doctrines of babylon.  


In order for you to be saved does it matter what you believe concerning:
-tithing
-virginity of mary
-trinity
-free will
-eternal punishment


If you answer yes to any of these then I challege you to rethink your belief in the doctrine of Christ.   Ray has made it very clear that what doctrines most of us has been taught is not truth.  He has helped many to challenge the status quo and think for themselves.  

Don't get too caught up in the jumble of words lest you miss the message.


feat

[orion77]

Bobby and Harryfeat, I totally agree.  Whe the Holy Spirit shall come, He shall teach you of all things.  


Jn 4:23
But coming is the hour, and now is, when the true worshipers will be worshiping the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father also is seeking such to be worshiping Him.

Jn 4:24
God is spirit, and those who are worshiping Him must be worshiping in spirit and truth."

Jn 14:17
the spirit of truth, which the world can not get, for it is not beholding it, neither is knowing it. Yet you know it, for it is remaining with you and will be in you.

Jn 14:26
Now the consoler, the holy spirit, which the Father will be sending in My name, that will be teaching you all, and reminding you of all that I said to you.

Jn 15:26
"Now, whenever the consoler which I shall be sending you from the Father may be coming, the spirit of truth which is going out from the Father, that will be testifying concerning Me.

Jn 16:13
Yet whenever that may be coming--the spirit of truth--it will be guiding you into all the truth, for it will not be speaking from itself, but whatsoever it should be hearing will it be speaking, and of what is coming will it be informing you.


I think a good balance between the word, Spirit and lifes experiences can lead to deeper truths.  It's when we put too much in one or the other that can cause confusion.  

God bless,

Gary

[hillsbororiver]

We are all going to be eventually saved, that is not the issue. We are striving for the higher calling;

Phi 3:14  I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Heb 3:1  Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2Pe 1:10  Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Remember the Word contained in scripture was not intended for all to understand;

Mat 13:13  Therefore,  speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Mat 13:14  And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Mar 4:12  That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

There is so much to learn, appreciate and understand in the books contained within our bibles, one of the things I have learned is to read it as God speaking to me directly, one on one, His Spirit growing in me, not looking for "signs and wonders" of outside worldly events.

Is our knowledge of this book so complete that we need to look elsewhere for meat? I agree that we can see the Lord's handwriting in things other than the bible, that nature itself is a parable, our interactions with others, believers and non-believers are edifying us if we view things spiritually. But to confuse our minds (spiritually) with the likes of Judas books is something we are admonished against. Do you think that the following verses apply only to the translators of the bible, or preachers in the pulpit?


Isa 8:20  To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Mat 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

Mat 16:12  Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Rev 22:18  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Rev 22:19  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

We all should be very careful of what we post, keeping in mind that there are only about 30 frequent posters (at any given time), hundreds that read and rarely post and thousands who visit here directly after just discovering Ray's articles, let us not confuse them with supposition and links to unscriptural writings.  

Joe

[alucard]

orion77,bobbys43,and Harryfeat i think your all missing the point of what i'm trying to do.do you believe every scripture in the bible came from true scripture of god?harryfeat you asked:
In order for you to be saved does it matter what you believe concerning:
-tithing
-virginity of mary
-trinity
-free will
-eternal punishment

YES!! it does matter atleast for some such as if you believe the trinity your not really worshiping the true god are you?only a god the way you think of him.eternal punishment to think it's justice or are god would be so unforgiving is denying what scripture tries to tell you.and for the others well it depends on how far you take it.

EDIT:hillsbororivers put we all we'll be saved in the end and i was typing to much in a hurry to say that it matters to be saved in this world,to be in the first reserection,thanks for showing me my mistake.

What makes a passage scriptural? Does it qualify if it is part of the dead sea scrolls? If it is part of the bible is it automatically scriptural [translation errors notwithstanding]? Who decided that Paul's writings should be included in a bible anyway? If you remove all of Paul's writings, does is significantly change the message of the new testament?

about paul that all depends on are faith and understanding that he was truely chosen by christ,and what makes a passage scriptural?well the orginal text is a big help.matthew 28:19 sounds purty inspiring to some people and becuase they believed it is IT HAS REALLY LEFT A BIG MARK ON CHRISTIANITY WITH MANY FALSE DOCTRINES.Ray even removes scripture from his mind after he finds out it's not original like everything after mark 16:8.also i left a post on immaculate conception you should read about another false doctrine.

[alucard]

We are all going to be eventually saved, that is not the issue. We are striving for the higher calling;

Phi 3:14  I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Heb 3:1  Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2Pe 1:10  Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Remember the Word contained in scripture was not intended for all to understand;

Mat 13:13  Therefore,  speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Mat 13:14  And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

Mar 4:12  That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

There is so much to learn, appreciate and understand in the books contained within our bibles, one of the things I have learned is to read it as God speaking to me directly, one on one, His Spirit growing in me, not looking for "signs and wonders" of outside worldly events.

Is our knowledge of this book so complete that we need to look elsewhere for meat? I agree that we can see the Lord's handwriting in things other than the bible, that nature itself is a parable, our interactions with others, believers and non-believers are edifying us if we view things spiritually. But to confuse our minds (spiritually) with the likes of Judas books is something we are admonished against. Do you think that the following verses apply only to the translators of the bible, or preachers in the pulpit?


Isa 8:20  To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Mat 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

Mat 16:12  Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Rev 22:18  For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Rev 22:19  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

We all should be very careful of what we post, keeping in mind that there are only about 30 frequent posters (at any given time), hundreds that read and rarely post and thousands who visit here directly after just discovering Ray's articles, let us not confuse them with supposition and links to unscriptural writings.  

Joe

alright i'll try to keep that in mind and be a little bit more carefull

[Harryfeat]

orion77,bobbys43,and Harryfeat i think your all missing the point of what i'm trying to do.do you believe every scripture in the bible came from true scripture of god?harryfeat you asked:
In order for you to be saved does it matter what you believe concerning:
-tithing
-virginity of mary
-trinity
-free will
-eternal punishment

YES!! it does matter atleast for some such as if you believe the trinity your not really worshiping the true god are you?only a god the way you think of him.eternal punishment to think it's justice or are god would be so unforgiving is denying what scripture tries to tell you.and for the others well it depends on how far you take it.

EDIT:hillsbororivers put we all we'll be saved in the end and i was typing to much in a hurry to say that it matters to be saved in this world,to be in the first reserection,thanks for showing me my mistake.

What makes a passage scriptural? Does it qualify if it is part of the dead sea scrolls? If it is part of the bible is it automatically scriptural [translation errors notwithstanding]? Who decided that Paul's writings should be included in a bible anyway? If you remove all of Paul's writings, does is significantly change the message of the new testament?

about paul that all depends on are faith and understanding that he was truely chosen by christ,and what makes a passage scriptural?well the orginal text is a big help.matthew 28:19 sounds purty inspiring to some people and becuase they believed it is IT HAS REALLY LEFT A BIG MARK ON CHRISTIANITY WITH MANY FALSE DOCTRINES.Ray even removes scripture from his mind after he finds out it's not original like everything after mark 16:8.also i left a post on immaculate conception you should read about another false doctrine.

I think I got it right and understand your point about not everything in the bible being original to the first published text.  Also, there are things attributed to authors that may not be written by them.    I think if you carefully reread my original post here you will see that I "get it"  

I simply took a narrow topic  and broadened it to show the importance of looking at a bigger picture when looking at the bible as a source for inspiration.  The questions are more to generate thought but if you have answers please help me out.

You say that a couple of references to John are not scriptural.  You cite the internet as a source to support your claim.  So what? How reliable are those sources quoted on the internet?

In answer to the question "what makes a passage scriptural you responded....well the orginal text is a big help.  What indeed is the true scripture of God? Are you saying it has to be part of the dead sea scrolls to be scriptural.  Is that the only criterion.  How do you tell it is inspired?

Does it have to be in the bible to be scriptural?

Is there anything scripturally inspired by God that is not in the bible?

*******************************


As far as being saved goes.  I believe that the docrtine of Christ transcends all other doctrines.  We do not know the true nature of God.  Though the scriptures do not support God as a trinity, God could be. God could be a duality, trinity, family, etc.  The only thing that matters to me is our complete love of Him and mankind as ourselves.  

It also  really doesn't matter to  me whether there is a hell or not once I get to the point of following Christ's doctrine of love and asking that the Father's will be done.  Whatever the Father wills is my goal.  That's why I say these doctrines and belief in a hell doesn't really matter.  It's His will only that matters.


I hope that clarifies what I was trying to point out.


feat

[alucard]

I think I got it right and understand your point about not everything in the bible being original to the first published text. Also, there are things attributed to authors that may not be written by them. I think if you carefully reread my original post here you will see that I "get it"

I simply took a narrow topic and broadened it to show the importance of looking at a bigger picture when looking at the bible as a source for inspiration. The questions are more to generate thought but if you have answers please help me out.

You say that a couple of references to John are not scriptural. You cite the internet as a source to support your claim. So what? How reliable are those sources quoted on the internet?

In answer to the question "what makes a passage scriptural you responded....well the orginal text is a big help. What indeed is the true scripture of God? Are you saying it has to be part of the dead sea scrolls to be scriptural. Is that the only criterion. How do you tell it is inspired?

Does it have to be in the bible to be scriptural?

Is there anything scripturally inspired by God that is not in the bible?

*******************************


As far as being saved goes. I believe that the docrtine of Christ transcends all other doctrines. We do not know the true nature of God. Though the scriptures do not support God as a trinity, God could be. God could be a duality, trinity, family, etc. The only thing that matters to me is our complete love of Him and mankind as ourselves.

It also really doesn't matter to me whether there is a hell or not once I get to the point of following Christ's doctrine of love and asking that the Father's will be done. Whatever the Father wills is my goal. That's why I say these doctrines and belief in a hell doesn't really matter. It's His will only that matters.


I hope that clarifies what I was trying to point out.

you have a very interesting way of looking at things and i admire your devotion trying to see what's really important.what makes a passage scriptural i said it's a big help but does not prove it in the end we may just have to rely on spirit but we should at least know what passages we are to really challenge are selfs to decide if they are written by god.about information i get i check it out a lot and make sure it's reliable before i even mention it.remember we are to search for the truth and we just can't abandon things we don't like to hear.

Rev 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book

[orion77]

Alucard, I can understand your point.  The so called doctrine of eternal torment in fire has not kept man from sinning.  Also, the scriptures in Rev. that you quoted has not kept men from adding or taking away from the word of God.

I think it is important to realize that in each generation the majority of believers are the ones who have a carnal reasoning towards the word of God.  A quick look at history attests to this.  How many people have been killed in the name of religion and especially in the name of christianity?  Millions, maybe billions and how many have kept quite their faith out of fear of retribution from the religious leaders and the many that simply follow along without searching for the truth.

This is something that has gone on for thousands of years and will continue as long as God wills.  There is plenty to learn from this.  It is something that runs much deeper than just mere words.  But, then again, words are humans main way of communicating and is very important to study.  I think Gods main way of communicating to us, is through the rebellious and stiffneckedness of the Israelites of old.  These are shadows and types, and in which when we are honest to ourselves we see ourselves in them too.  This is what makes it go way past words alone and into the realm of spiritual truths.  

Just like in Gods plan the darkness proceeds the light.  We all go through the night first and fall away.  This is a process God has caused us all to go through in creating us in His image.  It would be in vain for God to create us all perfect, how could we learn.  What God has created in the physical, the universe, planets other galaxies and all that is comprised is amazing and hard for the human mind to comprehend.  But, His greatest creation is what is being created now in the spiritual, which far exceeds the physical.  And that physical or carnal, if you will cannot understand these spiritual truths.

I think that is why, its not so much about the knowledge we have, albeit important, but how we inwardly treat those outwardly.  

God bless,

Gary

[hillsbororiver]

As far as being saved goes.  I believe that the docrtine of Christ transcends all other doctrines.  We do not know the true nature of God.  Though the scriptures do not support God as a trinity, God could be. God could be a duality, trinity, family, etc.  The only thing that matters to me is our complete love of Him and mankind as ourselves.  

It also  really doesn't matter to  me whether there is a hell or not once I get to the point of following Christ's doctrine of love and asking that the Father's will be done.  Whatever the Father wills is my goal.  That's why I say these doctrines and belief in a hell doesn't really matter.  It's His will only that matters.




I hope that clarifies what I was trying to point out.


feat

Hello feat, actually I found this to be a confusing train of thought;

What is your definition of the doctrine of Christ? Are you saying that love comes before knowledge and understanding? I think I might see where you are coming from if you said that it does not matter what "doctrine of man" you believe when the zeal of faith first comes into your heart. But to truly love Him or our brethren we need to grow into it, it does not just happen.

Many who believe that our Lord would do such a despicable thing as torment much of His creation in an eternal hellhole "worship" not out of love but fear, if what we believe is of no importance in regard to our spiritual growth then why is this written?

Eph 4:14  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

1Ti 6:3  If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

2Ti 4:3  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;


Tit 1:9  Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.


Tit 2:1  But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

We are instructed to grow in grace and knowledge, to resist error;

2Pe 3:15  And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

2Pe 3:16  As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, asthey do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.

2Pe 3:17  Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked,fall from your own steadfastness.

2Pe 3:18  But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.

It is only when we grow in the spirit that we can love in the spirit, speaking of love with a carnal mind is confusion, sure we can love family or friends with a carnal heart but love our enemies? An unseen God? Impossible. We have to be spiritually mature to bear the fruit of love, charity.



2Pe 1:5  And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue;and to virtue knowledge;

2Pe 1:6  And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

2Pe 1:7  And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.26

2Pe 1:8  For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge1922 of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Pe 1:9  But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.



G26
ἀγάπη
agapē
ag-ah'-pay
From G25; love, that is, affection or benevolence; specifically (plural) a love feast: - (feast of) charity ([-ably]), dear, love.


G1108
γνῶσις
gnōsis
gno'-sis
From G1097; knowing (the act), that is, (by implication) knowledge: - knowledge, science.

The apostles walked with Jesus for 3 1/2 years and were as carnal as anyone until after the Resurrection of our Lord, as you read the Acts and other books you see their knowledge increase, understanding increase and the fruits of the spirit became evident, but this was a progression not instantanious.  

Ray writes a great paper on "love" below is the link;

http://bible-truths.com/kiss.htm

[alucard]

hillsbororiver i can see why your a moderator you really have an eye for things.but just wondering what is your take on this topic?i'm sure you have your on opinion and with someone that seems to be very wise in scripture i'd like to see your take on this.

[Harryfeat]

As far as being saved goes.  I believe that the docrtine of Christ transcends all other doctrines.  We do not know the true nature of God.  Though the scriptures do not support God as a trinity, God could be. God could be a duality, trinity, family, etc.  The only thing that matters to me is our complete love of Him and mankind as ourselves.  

It also  really doesn't matter to  me whether there is a hell or not once I get to the point of following Christ's doctrine of love and asking that the Father's will be done.  Whatever the Father wills is my goal.  That's why I say these doctrines and belief in a hell doesn't really matter.  It's His will only that matters.




I hope that clarifies what I was trying to point out.


feat

Hello feat, actually I found this to be a confusing train of thought;

What is your definition of the doctrine of Christ? Are you saying that love comes before knowledge and understanding? I think I might see where you are coming from if you said that it does not matter what "doctrine of man" you believe when the zeal of faith first comes into your heart. But to truly love Him or our brethren we need to grow into it, it does not just happen.

Many who believe that our Lord would do such a despicable thing as torment much of His creation in an eternal hellhole "worship" not out of love but fear, if what we believe is of no importance in regard to our spiritual growth then why is this written?

Eph 4:14  That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

1Ti 6:3  If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

2Ti 4:3  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;


Tit 1:9  Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.


Tit 2:1  But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

We are instructed to grow in grace and knowledge, to resist error;

2Pe 3:15  And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

2Pe 3:16  As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, asthey do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.

2Pe 3:17  Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked,fall from your own steadfastness.

2Pe 3:18  But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.

It is only when we grow in the spirit that we can love in the spirit, speaking of love with a carnal mind is confusion, sure we can love family or friends with a carnal heart but love our enemies? An unseen God? Impossible. We have to be spiritually mature to bear the fruit of love, charity.



2Pe 1:5  And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue;and to virtue knowledge;

2Pe 1:6  And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

2Pe 1:7  And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.26

2Pe 1:8  For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge1922 of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Pe 1:9  But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.



G26
ἀγάπη
agapē
ag-ah'-pay
From G25; love, that is, affection or benevolence; specifically (plural) a love feast: - (feast of) charity ([-ably]), dear, love.


G1108
γνῶσις
gnōsis
gno'-sis
From G1097; knowing (the act), that is, (by implication) knowledge: - knowledge, science.

The apostles walked with Jesus for 3 1/2 years and were as carnal as anyone until after the Resurrection of our Lord, as you read the Acts and other books you see their knowledge increase, understanding increase and the fruits of the spirit became evident, but this was a progression not instantanious.  

Ray writes a great paper on "love" below is the link;

http://bible-truths.com/kiss.htm

Hello Joe,

Do you agree that the doctrine of Christ supersedes all others?


If yes, then I think we are saying the same thing.  I said " once I get to the point of following the doctrine of Christ " and you say we need to grow into it.  Granted I didn't say how hard the journey would be but I was making a point about what is ultimately most important to me.


Your point about the arduous process of coming to terms with love, agape is certainly one I agree with. It is an ultimate goal which  I believe is doubtful that I or anyone is able to achieve during their lifetime..


Still confused? Pm me.

[hillsbororiver]

Hello again feat,

I did not say I was "confused" I said your post had "a confusing train of thought" not a subtle difference. Your post claimed "we do not know the true nature of God" but yet you state your complete love of Him.

God's nature has been revealed, by His Son;

John 10:30  I and my Father are one.

1Jo 4:8  He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1Jo 4:9  In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

1Jo 4:10  Herein,  is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1Jo 4:16  And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God and God in him.

Rom 8:39  Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

There are many, many more verses that attest to God's nature, as to doctrine not being important, I think the scripture that was provided previously addresses that opinion clearly.

Yes, I agree that the doctrine of Christ supercedes all because He is all things, but remember;

Joh 14:23  Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him and make our abode with him.

feat, I think we agree on more than we disagree, the only reason I am being a stickler here is for the same reason I stated to alucard earlier in the thread, we as moderators and members have to keep in mind the folks who are guests to the forum who are visiting because of what they read on BibleTruths by Ray or Mike. When statements are posted that seem to contradict their articles it can breed confusion, I hope you understand.

Peace Brother,

Joe

[hillsbororiver]

hillsbororiver i can see why your a moderator you really have an eye for things.but just wondering what is your take on this topic?i'm sure you have your on opinion and with someone that seems to be very wise in scripture i'd like to see your take on this.

Hi alucard, thank you for the kind words, I am a student of His Word like most everyone else.

I wish I had a good answer for you, these scholarly statements by men with a bunch of letters behind their names leaves me cold, I have watched the History Channel's "experts" as well as A&E go on and on about "explaining what REALLY happened" and it used to frustrate me no end. Now that I realize they are thinking carnally and don't really know (spiritually) what they are doing, it no longer bothers me.

Leave it in God's hands, he will reveal to us what He will in His time, seek Him with a humble spirit and He will answer.

Truly, I wish I had a better answer in regard to your specific question but it would be supposition with no weight or meat.

Joe

[alucard]

hillsbororiver i can see why your a moderator you really have an eye for things.but just wondering what is your take on this topic?i'm sure you have your on opinion and with someone that seems to be very wise in scripture i'd like to see your take on this.

Hi alucard, thank you for the kind words, I am a student of His Word like most everyone else.

I wish I had a good answer for you, these scholarly statements by men with a bunch of letters behind their names leaves me cold, I have watched the History Channel's "experts" as well as A&E go on and on about "explaining what REALLY happened" and it used to frustrate me no end. Now that I realize they are thinking carnally and don't really know (spiritually) what they are doing, it no longer bothers me.

Leave it in God's hands, he will reveal to us what He will in His time, seek Him with a humble spirit and He will answer.

Truly, I wish I had a better answer in regard to your specific question but it would be supposition with no weight or meat.

Joe

alright right then.thanks for your opinion and to anyone else reading this i have done many hours of research on my own but if any of you have info that you think i don't have i wouldn't mind reading it.

now i will close with a statment with what revelation22:21 really is suppose to say:
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with all of the saints. Amen."

NOTE:Romans 1:7 incorrectly has the italicized words "to be." The fact is, Christians are now saints.So that goes to all the true christians

[Harryfeat]

Hello again feat,

I did not say I was "confused" I said your post had "a confusing train of thought" not a subtle difference. Your post claimed "we do not know the true nature of God" but yet you state your complete love of Him.


feat, I think we agree on more than we disagree, the only reason I am being a stickler here is for the same reason I stated to alucard earlier in the thread, we as moderators and members have to keep in mind the folks who are guests to the forum who are visiting because of what they read on BibleTruths by Ray or Mike. When statements are posted that seem to contradict their articles it can breed confusion, I hope you understand.

Peace Brother,

Joe

Joe, there is also no subtle difference between saying our complete love is what is important as opposed to  I have  achieved complete love.   You seem to have read  more into what I have written than what is there.  

Thanks for pointing out the train of thought that seemed confusing to you.  I was not aware that any of my opinions expressed here were contradictory to those on BT.  I understand your need to clarify when that occurs.

Thanks again
feat

[Mickyd]

We all should be very careful of what we post, keeping in mind that there are only about 30 frequent posters (at any given time), hundreds that read and rarely post and thousands who visit here directly after just discovering Ray's articles, let us not confuse them with supposition and links to unscriptural writings.  

Joe

I agree totally Joe.

This was bothering me greatly. Many who come here are struggling with their faith and looking for encouragement and fellowship. We should all focus on that.

[alucard]

This has been a very good thread and I will have to agree with Joe that many read here but do not post and they are learning as well as I am learning and I find that I try to keep my mind focused on what the word of God says.
Nothing in this life happens without God and he has a purpose or plan for everything wether written or done or spoken.
I too Joe use to watch these so called theologeans and bible scholars give their take or opinion on the scriptures of God and I too would get upset at some of the things they would say or try to refute! It all seemed so cold and meaningless! I too was guilty of the very same thing and relying on the wisdom of man instead of the wisdom of God before I came to the bible truths through God's Spirit! The thing is even when I would watch those bible shows at that time I was as far away from the truths of God! And yet I did not agree then with some of the things that they tried to proclaim as the real truth! Theroies,speculation and the like even then did not sit right with me personally!
I have come to find out that even trying to watch or read this garbage no longer makes me angry but I see that just how ignorant these scholars are compared to the God given knowledge that the Spirit puts and teaches in many of us here at the forum and for those watching also.
I know longer read or watch any of this for I feel that seeking God and studing His word that in His time he will reveal these things to me!It is the knowledge that God is and will continue to give me and I have to trust and rely on Him to make that known to me! I must trust God to lead and direct me in His teaching me and the flesh,mine, wants all the knowledge right now and I pray God will give me patient and help me to be still and let Him do the guiding!

Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Matthew 6:33-34 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Matthew 7:7-8 Ask and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh recieveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

bobby

you've got your mind in the right place bobby.the reason i question some scriptures is for many reasons.one is becuase so many ungodly scriptures almost made in all the bibles but didn't just becuase they couldn't find a place for as i stated they tried to put the bible as a story from begining to end.i think that that gnostic genesis story would be in it but they didn't want two beginings especially if they weren't beside each other.another one was about mary being born of a virgin without original sin that would be in the bibles new testament but they wanted to get straight to jesus and after that there wasn't a place for it,and something i thought was strange is how one of pauls later episltes would get really specific about his past writtings as in saying this is what that really meant.one thing that gets me is is the place for women.ray and mike are right to a certian degree,also for people reading this is my on personal opinion,but you can't tell me people didn't at least mess with the originals concerning the place for a woman in church.in the past people really didn't like women being leaders of anything in fact later paintings of women leaders would have their eyes carved out, plus a point of enterest :
Corinthians 11:3: "...Christ is the head of every man, and a husband the head of his wife, and the head of Christ is God. (NIV)" Conservative Christians often quote this passage as proof that a husband should retain full authority over his wife in family matters. This concept of women being in an inferior power position might logically be extended to the church organization as well. Some liberal Christians note that the Greek word translated "head" is "kephale", which can be interpreted in two ways: "having authority over," or alternatively "source" or "origin." Looking at verses 3 to 12, each interpretation looks equally valid. The former would support rejection of women in positions of authority; the latter would not.
also in I Timothy 3:2 and Titus 1:6, which deal with the qualities of elders, the original RSV (1946) read, "married only once." Because this was greatly criticized, they changed it in later versions to read, "the husband of one wife."

not that i'm saying everything mentioned in the episltes about women isn't true just that people tried to make them seem lower than they were when it seems they should have been more equal.paul even acknowlegded women church leaders Paul is accompanied by house-church leaders Priscilla and Aquila. Priscilla, a female, is a dominant figure in Paul's ministry and leads over Aquila.and most of the questionable episltes seem to make men look as their in much higher power .

And the biggest thing that gets to me is the fact that there were many other fake episltes forged in his name.

[Mickyd]

Corinthians 11:3: "...Christ is the head of every man, and a husband the head of his wife, and the head of Christ is God. (NIV)" Conservative Christians often quote this passage as proof that a husband should retain full authority over his wife in family matters. This concept of women being in an inferior power position might logically be extended to the church organization as well. Some liberal Christians note that the Greek word translated "head" is "kephale", which can be interpreted in two ways: "having authority over," or alternatively "source" or "origin." Looking at verses 3 to 12, each interpretation looks equally valid. The former would support rejection of women in positions of authority; the latter would not.
also in I Timothy 3:2 and Titus 1:6, which deal with the qualities of elders, the original RSV (1946) read, "married only once." Because this was greatly criticized, they changed it in later versions to read, "the husband of one wife."

The problem is that too many of those in leadership positions in the Church can do nothing but think in carnal terms.

Corinthians 11:3: "...Christ is the head of every man, and a husband the head of his wife, and the head of Christ is God. (NIV)"

You also seem to think that this is refering to marrage between a man and a woman....it is not.

Christ is the head of every man (Meaning mankind) and a husband the head of his wife (Christ is the husband of the Church...the Church being the woman) and the head of Christ is God.