satan

[dave]

I dont seem to have it figured out how to post, but I just read something in Gen.dissc. about satan and is he real. My question is  not "satan" the Heb. word for adversary? the word satan is not proper name is it? And except for a "serpent" in Gen.3 and the description called a dragon in Rev. where in the Word  does this adversary have a form that is seen? Now I have not read all of Rays papers but I am in the process, so if there is info on this direct me to it please. I do believe that there is an adversary at work.

[Kat]

Hi Micah7:9,

Here is an excerpt from the Lake of fire part 2, 'THE REAL ORIGIN OF SIN.'

http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html -------------------------------

WHENCE SATAN THE DEVIL?

According to Christendom, Satan created himself. He was supposedly a perfect archangel and then CHANGED HIMSELF INTO A DEVIL. Is this Scripturally true? Who created Satan?

1.  You are of your FATHER the DEVIL [the GREAT DRAGON, OLD SERPENT, the DEVIL, and SATAN {Hebrew for Adversary -- I Pet. 5:8} Rev. 12:9], and the lusts of your father ye will do... He was a murderer FROM THE BEGINNING, and abode not in the truth [from the beginning], because there is no truth in him [from the beginning]. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar [from the beginning], and the father [the beginner] of it" (John 8:44).

2.  "Now the SERPENT was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD GOD had MADE..." (Gen. 3:1) God "made" this serpent which TALKED with Eve as an articulate, intelligent, creature. Satan did not possess this serpent of the field, Satan was this serpent! Satan doesn't possess snakes! Satan himself was CREATED A SERPENT. Even Paul acknowledges that it was "the SERPENT" that deluded Eve, and not some other creature possessing a snake (II Cor. 11:3).

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between THY SEED and her seed, it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel" (Gen. 3:15).

This serpent that shall bruise the heel of Eve's seed (singular seed -- Christ) is clearly Satan the Devil who also has seed, "thy seed." Jesus said, "You are of your father the Devil...?" (John 8:44). Satan the Devil has "seed"; he is a "father": a father has children and followers of like nature. No literal snake ever produced a seed that bruised the heel of Jesus. Snakes do not "eat dust" but Satan dines on mankind "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour [Greek: (lit. or fig.) gulp entirely, swallow up] I Pet. 5:08). And he seeks to devour mankind who are "dust" of the earth ("...for dust thou art...." Gen. 3:19).

3. "By HIS SPIRIT He hath garnished the heavens; his HAND has FORMED THE CROOKED SERPENT" (Job 26:13). God garnished the heavens by His SPIRIT, because they are a thing of great glory, beauty, and splendor. But the crooked SERPENT God formed by His "hand" -- at ARMS LENGTH. Thus indicating it was something necessary, but not of His HEART AND SPIRIT! Satan is called "the crooked serpent." This word crooked comes from a Hebrew word that is not translated "crooked" anywhere else in the Bible. The word in Hebrew is bariach, and it means "a fugitive," Strong's #1281. And "fugitive" is from the Hebrew word nuwa, Strong's #5128, among its several meanings are: "to [go] up and down," and "to and fro," and to "sift." Remember that God names things according to what they are and what they do:

(A) "And the LORD [is this a high enough authority for everyone?] Said unto SATAN [not a heretofore archangel], Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, 'From going TO AND FRO in the earth, and from walking UP AND DOWN in it" (Job. 1:7 and 2:2).

It is the "crooked [fugitive] SERPENT" SATAN who goes "TO AND FRO" and "UP AND DOWN" in the earth! God created Satan for this purpose.

(B) "And the LORD said [is this a high enough authority for everyone?], Simon, Simon, behold, SATAN [not a heretofore archangel] hath desired to have you, that he may SIFT you as wheat" (Luke 22:31).

It is the "crooked [fugitive] SERPENT" SATAN who "SIFTS" men like wheat! God created Satan for this purpose.

4.  "Behold, I have created the smith [that's me] that blows the coals in the fire, and that brings forth an instrument for His work, and I have CREATED THE WASTER TO DESTROY" (Isaiah 54:16).

["waster" -- Hebrew: shachath, decay, ruin, batter, cast off, corrupt, destroy, lose, mar, perish, spill spoil -- UTTERLY WASTE, #7843, p. 115, Strong's Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary].

God created the "WASTER," not the archangel who later supposedly became Satan, but from the BEGINNING God said He created "The WASTER" and He created him "TO DESTROY" Now then, WHO'S role is it to "destroy" the flesh of man so that the spirit may be saved?

"In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one UNTO SATAN for DESTRUCTION of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus" (I Cor. 5:4-5).

It is SATAN who was created from his very beginning to be "the WASTER to DESTROY" men's flesh (carnal mindedness) so that they learn not to blaspheme (I Tim. 1:20). Satan started with Adam and Eve and he isn't finished YET!

5. "And no marvel [Gk: to wonder with ASTONISHMENT]; for Satan himself is transformed [Gk: meta schematizo, transfigure -- to change the outward form or appearance, to make GLORIOUS] into an ANGEL OF LIGHT" (II Cor. 11:14).

6.  I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded you, though you have not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there none beside Me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, AND CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do ALL [even the creation of evil and even the creation of Satan] THESE THINGS" (Isaiah 45:5-7).

Satan is evil, God created evil, God CREATED SATAN!

7. "He that commits sin is of the DEVIL [Gk: Adversary, Satan] for the Devil SINS FROM THE BEGINNING. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the WORKS of the Devil" (I John 3:08).
So was it AFTER a supposed "Lucifer archangel" metamorphosed into Satan that he sinned, or did Satan the Adversary sin "from the BEGINNING?
-----------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[winner08]

 I can't answer you questions, but I can direct you to Ray's Lake of fire series. I know for sure it will be there that you will find all your answers to your question on satan. I'm a newbie myself ,therefore I just started reading these papers on the lake of fire myself, and I find it truly informative. You'll be well satisfied.

             Enjoy,  Darren

[dave]

I understand that about satan (lake of fire series) but when or how did "the word" satan become a proper name? ALL things are from the Creator, The Father; He created evil. satan is a WORD from the Hebrew language not a person, being. When Jesus was tempted where was the adversary? When Jesus rebuked Peter, where was the adversary?

[hillsbororiver]

Here is a response from Ray to this very same idea, basically he states as one example is when Jesus was tempted by Satan was He in fact tempted by His weak carnal mind?

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?action=post;quote=55640;topic=6991.0;num_replies=0;sesc=6e266f0f4b539eb75b2530582fa2df30

Simply put, did Christ come already and is there a real Satan or is it just our weak flesh?


        Dear Reader:  Jesus Christ "is, was, and will be."  I discovered that many years ago when reading the book of Revelation. That thought is mentioned ten times in Revelation. Jesus CAME and died for the sins of the world;   He COMES in the life of His saints (generation after generation);  and He WILL COME to resurrect His saints to reign and judge this world.
         
        Jesus said: "Get thee behind Me, Satan."  Was Jesus telling his weak, carnal, sinful flesh to "get behind Him?"  I don't think so.
        God be with you,
        Ray

[hillsbororiver]

 Matthew 4

1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

2And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

3And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

5Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

6And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

7Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

11Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

[Kat]

Hi Micah7:9,

Here is an excerpt from a commentary that I feel will give you some info. as to this name Satan and I do not believe that it is in opposition to what Ray teaches.

Albert Barnes ~
Job 1:6  Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

"And Satan came also among them" - Margin, "The adversary" came "in the midst of them."
On the general meaning of this passage, the doctrine of the existence of an evil spirit of the character ascribed in this book to Satan, was early known to the Hebrews. It was known in the time of Ahab, when, it is said, the Lord had put a lying spirit in the mouth of the prophets, 1Ki_22:22-23, and the belief of such an evil spirit must have been early prevalent.

The Vulgate renders this by the name "Satan."
The Septuagint: ὁ διάβολος ho diabolos - the devil, or the accuser.
The Chaldee, סטנא  saṭenā', "Satan." So the Syriac.
Theodotion, ὁ ἀντικείμενος  ho antikeimenos - "the adversary."
The word rendered "Satan" שׂטן  śâṭân is derived from שׂטן  śâṭan "Satan," to lie in wait, to be an adversary, and hence, it means properly an adversary, an accuser. It is used to denote one who "opposes," as in war 1Ki_11:14, 1Ki_11:23, 1Ki_11:25; 1Sa_29:4; one who is an adversary or an accuser in a court of justice Psa_109:6, and one who stands in the way of another; Num_22:22, "And the angel of yahweh stood in the way for an adversary against him" לה לשׂטן  leśâṭân lôh, "to oppose him."

It is then used by way of eminence, to denote the "adversary," and assumes the form of a proper name, and is applied to the great foe of God and man - the malignant spirit who seduces people to evil, and who accuses them before God.
Thus, in Zec_3:1-2, "And he showed me Joshua the priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan;"
compare Rev_12:10, "Now is come salvation -for the accuser ὁ κατηγορῶν  ho katēgorōn - that is, Satan- (see Rev_12:9) of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." 

The word does not often occur in the Old Testament. It is found in the various forms of a verb and a noun in only the following places.
As a verb, in the sense of being an adversary, Psa_71:13; Psa_109:4, Psa_109:20, Psa_109:29; Zec_3:1; Psa_38:20;
as a noun, rendered "adversary" and "adversaries," 1Ki_5:4; 1Ki_11:14, 1Ki_11:23, 1Ki_11:25; Num_22:22, Num_22:32; 1Sa_29:4; 2Sa_19:22; rendered "Satan," 1Ch_21:1; Psa_109:6; Job_1:6-9, Job_1:12; Job_2:1-4, Job_2:6-7; Zec_3:2;
and once rendered "an accusation," Ezr_4:6.
It was a word, therefore, early used in the sense of an adversary or accuser, and was applied to anyone who sustained this character, until it finally came to be used as a proper name, to denote, by way of eminence, the prince of evil spirits, as the adversary or accuser of people.
---------------------------------------------------

I hope this helps 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[dave]

It was the word "assume" that caught my eye. I a have just again finished Rays article on the trinity and he spoke alot about the use of theory and other conjectures to prove....I am not denying the adversay, nor his abilities, but I still contend there is not(that I can find) a physical description of the opposer, the accuser, in the Bible. But, christianity and religion will spout Dante and Miltons description and people accept it; just who or what was Jesus speaking to when He spoke to Peter, for He certainly directed it towards Peter. When Jesus spoke when He was tempted, to "what, " did he direct His speak? I do not believe the carnal mind is, satan at least not totally. Ive wondered of this for awhile and I do respect your knowledge.

[mharrell08]

It was the word "assume" that caught my eye. I a have just again finished Rays article on the trinity and he spoke alot about the use of theory and other conjectures to prove....I am not denying the adversay, nor his abilities, but I still contend there is not(that I can find) a physical description of the opposer, the accuser, in the Bible. But, christianity and religion will spout Dante and Miltons description and people accept it; just who or what was Jesus speaking to when He spoke to Peter, for He certainly directed it towards Peter. When Jesus spoke when He was tempted, to "what, " did he direct His speak? I do not believe the carnal mind is, satan at least not totally. Ive wondered of this for awhile and I do respect your knowledge.

What do you mean when you say a "physical description"? Do you mean something physical or tangible that defines Satan?

You ask "who" was Jesus speaking to or directing his speech to...the same one that God was in Gen. 3:15 ("And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel").  Do you believe our Lord needed to "physically see" Satan to rebuke him when he was tempted in the wilderness or through Peter who opposed the will of God? Satan is a spirit which one never physically sees. I ask questions to only help not to try to belittle. Often questions instead of point blank statements help people understand better.

[phazel]

Does Satan really carry a pitchfork?

[Samson]

Does Satan really carry a pitchfork?

       I don't know Phazel,  , but as long as my wife isn't carrying one for the rest of this week,  , I'll probably survive. We will have to wait and see who carries the pitchfork after the next presidential election,  , thankyou for the levity Phazel.

                                               Samson.

[hillsbororiver]

I suppose the same case could be made in regard to God the Father who also has no physical description, "only" the Words of Jesus;

Joh 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Was Job being tormented by his carnal mind? Did Job's carnal mind appear with "the sons of God?" Was the Lord conversing with Job's carnal mind?

  Job 1

6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

9Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

10Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

11But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

12And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

13And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:

14And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them:

15And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

16While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

17While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

18While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:

19And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

20Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,

21And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

22In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

Job 2

1Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

2And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

3And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

4And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

5But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

6And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

7So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

8And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes.

9Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die.

10But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

11Now when Job's three friends heard of all this evil that was come upon him, they came every one from his own place; Eliphaz the Temanite, and Bildad the Shuhite, and Zophar the Naamathite: for they had made an appointment together to come to mourn with him and to comfort him.

12And when they lifted up their eyes afar off, and knew him not, they lifted up their voice, and wept; and they rent every one his mantle, and sprinkled dust upon their heads toward heaven.

13So they sat down with him upon the ground seven days and seven nights, and none spake a word unto him: for they saw that his grief was very great.

I am not trying to be facetious but I believe the Word is very clear about our adversary;

1Pe 5:8  Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

If we ignore or fail to see him for what he is we are like a lamb who wanders into a lion's den totally unaware of what fate awaits it.

Peace,

Joe 

[mharrell08]

Great point Joe...it goes along the same lines of what Jesus stated in Matt. 10:28 (And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.). Killing the body is a physical act...but Satan being a spirit wishes to destroy both the physical and spiritual or as stated the soul and body.


Marques

[winner08]

Micah7:9 I think you original question was what was Satan's real name. I'm a newbie myself and I'm not teaching. I also can't quote scripture very well. I do remember that Jesus said something like He saw SATAN thrown down to  earth. This is not a quote from Jesus. My point is Jesus used the name Satan. I really can't say no more on the subject. I'll sound more ignorant than I am.

                                          peace to you and your's

                                                  Darren 

[Chris R]

I BEHELD SATAN AS LIGHTNING FALL FROM HEAVEN

Now for one of the most amazing symbol identifications found anywhere in the Scriptures. What did Jesus mean when He said: "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" (Luke 10:18)? Did Jesus see Satan fall from the sky? Did Satan fall from outer space? Did Satan fall from the throne of God's heaven? From what "heaven" did Jesus see Satan as lightning FALL FROM? If only we can believe the Scriptures.



GOD'S HEAVEN IS HIGHER THAN MAN'S HEAVEN

Satan is the god of this world (I Cor. 4:4). Satan possesses ALL the kingdoms of the world (Matt. 4:8-9). Satan appears to the heads of his nations as an angel of light (I Cor. 11:12). It was Satan who appealed to the heaven of Eve's mind. It was Satan that caused the people to build a tower that would reach MAN'S concept of heaven. The heaven of the minds of those conceiving of such lofty things. It was Satan who caused the king of Babylon to be lifted up in his own heaven, his own mind. Listen to his own words:

"At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon. The king spake, and said, is not this GREAT BABYLON, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of MY power, and for the honour of MY MAJESTY?"

The king of Babylon had a dream, and in the dream his kingdom was likened to a tree:

"The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached into HEAVEN..." (Dan. 4:11).

The kingdom of Babylon didn't grow into GOD'S heaven, that's for sure. No, Daniel identifies who the tree represents:

"The tree that you saw... It is YOU, O king, that are grown and become strong: for your greatness is grown, and reached unto HEAVEN..." (Dan. 4:20a & 22).

The king of Babylon reached the same heaven that the city of Capernaum reached:

"And thou Capernaum, which art exalted to HEAVEN, shall be thrust down to hell [hades/death/the grave]" (Luke 10:15).

Sinful Capernaum was never exalted to GOD'S heaven, but to their OWN HEAVEN, the heaven of their own minds. Their city never left the surface of the earth, but IN THEIR MINDS they thought they had reached "heaven." Now then, with this in mind, let us move ahead two verses and see how all these Scriptures tie in and harmonize together. Verse 17:

"And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the DEVILS are subject unto us through your name. And he said unto them, [I know] I BEHELD Satan as lightning fall from heaven [when and as it was happening through the commands of His disciples]."

Christ's disciples were filled with JOY over the power that Jesus had given them so that even spirits were subject to them. Jesus had just said that He would thrust Capernaum down from THEIR HEAVEN, their high place in their own mind. Next the disciples report back that they were able to cast down spirits (demons) from men's minds, from their own heavens. They were excited to tell Jesus what they had done. They had the power to cast down DEMONS from men's heavens, from out of their MINDS. And Jesus answered them back by saying, YES, I KNOW, I BEHELD Satan (prince of the devils and demons), fall from the heaven of men's minds while you were doing it! And then even Jesus "rejoiced" (Verse 21).

http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html


Thought you might like to read this

Chris R

[dave]

Praise Him. Chris R. I sense that you have come closest to my search. I contend with myself that this is a subject that has not been given much thought, but has been accepted as not having to be studied in depth by the believer at war with the adversary which has been given the charge over principalities, powers, rulers of THE darkness of THIS world, spiritual wickedness in high places; not a carnal warfare......Pulling down STRONGHOLDS.....casting down IMAGINATIONS, and every high THING that exalts itself against THE KNOWLEDGE......There is a war in the heavens.

[Falconn003]

actually the http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html, is from the LAKE of FIRE series, you somehow did not read prior to posting your question in the forum. Would have saved you alot of fustrating mediation.

each to thier own studies, and observations........i guess.
Rodger

[lilitalienboi16]

actually the http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html, is from the LAKE of FIRE series, you somehow did not read prior to posting your question in the forum. Would have saved you alot of fustrating mediation.

each to thier own studies, and observations........i guess.
Rodger

falcon, you have always cracked me up, and by that i mean, made me laugh. lol.

[Akira329]

Hey You guys,
I asked Ray about a few months ago if Satan being the destroyer of the flesh was a good thing.
I considered it so in mind. Is this a good way think?

Antaiwan

[Robin]

I had questions on whether Satan is omnipresent. The church has a tendency to blame Satan for everything and the thought came to me that he is isn't omnipresent from the verses below.
Are spiritual beings omnipresent?

Om`ni*pres"ent\, a. [Omni- + present: cf.F. omnipr['e]sent.] Present in all places at the same time; ubiquitous; as, the omnipresent Jehovah.

1 Peter 5:
8Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Job 1:
7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

This seems to say Satan is in the heaven of all men's minds or maybe it is his demons.

They had the power to cast down DEMONS from men's heavens, from out of their MINDS. And Jesus answered them back by saying, YES, I KNOW, I BEHELD Satan (prince of the devils and demons), fall from the heaven of men's minds while you were doing it! And then even Jesus "rejoiced"