A question about lost people.

[Dave in Tenn]

This is not so much a hypothetical question as it is theoretical.

Ray says, and there is general agreement here, that for one to 'come out of Babylon' she or she must first be IN Babylon.

What does this mean for your regular run-of-the-mill 'lost' person, unbeliever, sinner without Christ, person who has never heard the gospel (or church heresies for that matter)?

Is this covered anywhere specifically?  If not, do you have any wisdom to share?

[dogcombat]

Dave In Tenn,

Ray has covered the second half of your question on this topic in a letter critiquing a "sermon" by the late D. James Kennedy (He of the 6 degrees and zero understanding of spiritual matters) called "What About Those Who Never Heard?"

http://bible-truths.com/kendy2.htm

In a nutshell, as pertaining to the first part of your question, my 3 cents worth is that God places you IN Babylon to see how Blind its followers are to their "Tradition of the Elders" (ways of Man that is) in order for us to fully
comprehend His truths when we are called out of her (Rev. 18:4).  In other words Babylon is used by God to fufill His purpose in our lives.

Ches

[Dave in Tenn]

Thanks, I'll read it again.  What I recall from that letter was word about the ultimate salvation of those categories of people after death and ressurection.

What I'm mostly driving at is the front end.  Does God ever draw sinners, unbelievers, people who have never heard, to faith without first subjecting them to false christian doctrine and practice?  I was in the Church and believed those doctrines.  But not everybody does that.  Could God, for example, bring a man to repentance and secure his Election without him ever being 'religious' before?  Or does 'babylon' possibly refer to more than the christian Church?

[OBrenda]

Interesting question Dave,

I know many people who don't associate with any "church", but still accept the belief that there is a heaven and hell.  Even the atheists have an understanding of the delusions and false teachings of the church.
Can they come out of that as Babylon? 

[David]

None believers that come to Christ will go into "Babylon", just as those who are Gods elect have come through "Babylon". A few will come out, most will stay there.
In my experience, when new believers first come to Christ its a bit like being back in primary school to begin with, only a bit more "graphic" in the detail. They learn the nativity story all over again, the easter story.....then  comes some of Christs teaching from His Ministry. But for many thats as far as it goes, they just get bogged down in Church doctrine, Church life etc and think they are serving God, just as we here did.
If somone dies without knowing Christ, then I believe that 1 Tim 2:4 will be as true and profound a statement as it is to those who know Christ during their lifetime. They WILL be saved, and they WILL come unto a knowledge of the truth, and part of that truth will be the "Babylon" experience.

[WhoAmI]

 It is all Babylonia to me. It doesn't matter if they don't believe church doctrines, they are blind as well. It is all babble and confusion. It is all building your own tower to heaven and sitting on the throne.

[David]

It is all Babylonia to me. It doesn't matter if they don't believe church doctrines, they are blind as well. It is all babble and confusion. It is all building your own tower to heaven and sitting on the throne.

You're right IMO, lost people are just as much in Babylon as those in the Churches. 2 Cor 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

Dave in Ten, your questions is very interesting. IMO, I don't think you have to be in a physical Church to have the Babylon experience. We can come out of the Church physically yet still spiritually be in Babylon. People can indeed come to Christ without ever joining a Church group etc, yet still be filled with false teachings and understandings from whatever commentaries they are reading, websites they are reading etc. With the internet and TBN, you can be in Babylon 24/7 without ever leaving your armchair.  I think we're always coming out of Babylon, even at an advanced stage of understanding........our carnal minds and the pulls of our flesh will be with us until the day we die.

[Dave in Tenn]

That makes good sense.  It's certainly hard to imagine anybody living the US not having their eyes blinded from a fairly early age. 

I suppose even the 'gentiles' of the early church age had thier own lies to overcome even if they weren't Pharasaical.

Maybe it's just my inner missionary coming out, being smacked down by my inner cultural prejudice.   

[hillsbororiver]

Hi Everyone,

An interesting topic here.

Although I do not believe that one must be in a physical church building to have the "Babylon" experience I do believe that one has to gain his "first love" before he can lose it and fall into Babylon. If we take every person that has ever lived in the history of the world how many know of Christ, how many "accepted Christ? In the overall picture not many.

If you look at 2Kings Chapter 20 you will see that King Hezekiah sought to impress the ambassadors of Babylon with the riches of Judah, this did not please God and began the series of events which brought forth the exile of the Jews from the Promised Land to captivity in Babylon. Can you see the type/shadow of the church here? Instead of heeding the will of his "first love" (God) Hezekiah sought to impress men and win their approval.

Remember the Babylon we are speaking of, the Mystery Babylon of Revelation is a spiritual experience not a physical one, it is about spiritual fornication, lies, lust and greed for things of this world under the guise of spirituality, in other words it is the love of the things of this world in the name of Christ!

So if we look at it in a spiritual sense a person who never had a love of Christ to begin with could not lose his or her first love (Christ) and return to the world when they never left the world to begin with.

How God deals with each individual unbeliever is something I have no clue to other than they will at some point learn righteousness.

Peace,

Joe 

[winner08]

Yes, at some point they will learn rightousness. You hit the nail on the head. Isa 26:9. When thy judgements are in the earth the inhabitants of the world will learn rightousness.

                                        Darren

[Samarnon]

Hi to all!

If somone dies without knowing Christ, then I believe that 1 Tim 2:4 will be as true and profound a statement as it is to those who know Christ during their lifetime. They WILL be saved, and they WILL come unto a knowledge of the truth, and part of that truth will be the "Babylon" experience.

I think I agree with what David is saying here. Because for many of us, we've been part of the "For many are called, but few are chosen in (Matthew 22:14) that means, we've been in Babylon as the "called-out" and then God calls us out again from Babylon in (Revelation 18:4) And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her,  my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues , this is for His chosen elect few and if we think that we are part of His elect then, (2Peter 1:10)  Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.

This is from my 1Peso worth of wisdom

God bless,
Joy

[jakfr0s]

  Hi all, I think I remember Ray saying in one of his papers that in the second resurrection that everyone that never had a chance to experience evil or babylone would have that chance during that time.Especially the unborns or miscarriages who were murdered or just didnt have chance. I could be wrong or maybe im mixing it up with something else?

[Robin]

I've also had questions this week about why non believers experience such terrible suffering and evil if it is not judgment now or training in righteousness. I've been trying to figure out what purpose it serves in their life. I have no answer.

[Roy Monis]

This is not so much a hypothetical question as it is theoretical.

Ray says, and there is general agreement here, that for one to 'come out of Babylon' she or she must first be IN Babylon.

What does this mean for your regular run-of-the-mill 'lost' person, unbeliever, sinner without Christ, person who has never heard the gospel (or church heresies for that matter)?

Is this covered anywhere specifically?  If not, do you have any wisdom to share?

Hi! Dave from Tenn

Using English currency, I'll stick in my penny worth. I tend to place Believers, Lost and Nonbelievers in three distinct categories. HOT - LUKEWARM - COLD. "'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth." (Rev.3:14-16).

First in order of selection: The TRUE BELIEVER who accepts the TRUE GOSPEL or GOOD NEWS - The Hot: Second in order of selection the nonbelievers who completely reject the gospel - The Cold: Third and last in order of selection BABYLON who blaspheme the GOSPEL by preaching BAD NEWS - The LUKEWARM that God spits out of His mouth.

We were in danger of being spit out through no fault of our own because our traditionalist parents put us in without our knowledge or consent, but by the grace of God we have been called out of her as His chosen. Those that end up in the spittoon, I fear, will end up worse than those who are cold 

That's how we come to be in Babylon, innocently. Those that fall for the door to door peddlers are only falling from one roasting pan in BABYLON into another.

This in my opinion only, but I hope it helps.

God bless you brother in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     

[Kat]

This age that we are in now is so that people can have an experience in physical life.  It is this 'experience' that is so importance and it is to learn good and evil.

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

In this present age, from Adam all the way until Christ returns when the human race is completed, this whole world has been in darkness and are 'lost' as Job said;

Job 12:25  They grope in the dark without light,
      And He makes them stagger like a drunken man.

This darkness and the "experience in evil" that is necessary for all people.  But it is only a moment in time, that we will spend here in our existence.

James 4:14  whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away.

It is this brief period of time that all the people are gaining the contrast of the darkness that we all need, by this evil experience.  The suffering and sadness and grief must be and to the degree that will be remembered and God determines what it takes.  But this is only for a predetermined amount of time, so that we can endure it (not an eternal torment, like hell that the church preaches).  
When we look back on everything we have suffered, we will remember the experience but not so much the actual pain.  So it is this experience that we will take with us from this life.
When Christ returns and raises the dead, the world will be so different and everyone will receive comfort and these things we all suffer will be only a memory.

Rev 21:3  And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
v. 4  And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

It is only a very few that He is choosing out of this world that will serve with Him to bring all the rest of humanity to salvation in the age to come.  For now the people of the world are blind and content to stay that way.

John 3:19  And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil.

Those who have their eyes opened are so few.  We should be so thankful and hopeful that we can remain faithful until the end.

Luke 21:34  "But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly.
v. 35  For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.
v. 36  Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man."

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[winner08]

MG. Non believer's and believers experience terrible sufferings. It just might be believer's may suffer more, on account that they are now in a spiritual warfare. The disciples suffered much.

                                                          Darren

[Robin]

Thank you. I think I see my error now. I was confusing the experience of good and evil with judgment.

[Roy Monis]

Hi! Kathy

Your quote: John 3:19  And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil.

How very true. Have I not been saying for a long time that we are very fortunate to have had our eyes opened to the darkness within. Now that we can see all the evil within we have the opportunity to expose them in the light where they can be seen for what they are and "Bruise - CRUSH as Ray says - its head." - "And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head," (Gen.3:15).

The Spirit within cannot do anything until we are prepared to expose the idols hidden in darkness. "Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. Stand firm therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints...." (Eph.6:10-18).

Just wondered why my post relating to this very subject was blocked?

God bless you sister in our joint walk in Christ. 

Love in Christ Jesus.

Roy UK     

[Dave in Tenn]

Despite the fact this thread went kinda far afield, just wanted to post that I got my answer in Part 6 of the september '06 Mobile conference (along with other tremendous blessings, spiritual understanding, FELLOWSHIP, and a few belly laughs from the series which I've been listening to all day.)  Wonderful!

[dogcombat]

Dave,

Ya Gotta be Lawrence Welk.  It's "Truly Wunnerful"

Ches