responding to... i can live like hell and still be saved

[AK4]

i remember reading an email or something where someone said to Ray that since we all are going to be saved anyway he might as well just live it up now.  And Ray responded saying this guy obviously didn't care about Jesus dying for our sins or something of the like.

Do anybody know where this is?  I want to answer this one guy i know question but i just don't know where to start.  it feels like i get flooded with too many answers for him, then mind gets fluttered and i don't know what to say.

Or i guess a better question is whats the best way to respond to someone who says that?

thanks,

Anthony

[knuckle]

http://bible-truths.com/email7.htm#live


This the one?

much love----------knuckle

[AK4]

hi knuckle,

no not this one.  there one that was more detailed.  but thanks

Anthony

[KristaD]

I tell people that say that "if that is what is in your heart then you are not serving God out of love but fear and God knows that."

[winner08]

Yes we are all going to be saved. The question is do you want to be the elect and rule with Christ or do you want to wait till the resurrection. Also we all have to pay for our sinful nature which will be burned out of us  with the fire of God. This will not be nice. How many stripes will you have to pay? I believe the more wicked the person the more stripes it will cost. I believe this will be a painful process. There will be a price to pay. There is a scripture that goes something like this How terrible it will be for those who fall into the hands of the living God. This is not a direct quote. You get the point.

                                       Darren

[AK4]

winner08,

More stripes will be to those who have the learned Truths and turned from it (I dont have time to find the scripture but its there).  I want to tell them about striving to be in the first Resurrection ,but i know that will bring even more questions.  Its like giving meat to babes before they are ready. I feel like if i don't start them off with baby steps then I might be starting them off with the wrong seed, sort a speak.  its like you tell them  hey you know God created evil for the purpose to show what is good.  you know how people will react to that without knowing the purpose/plan of God.  so then you maybe you start with the plan of God.  then that makes you think that maybe you should have started at another place where you should have told/showed them first about this or that then they would understand maybe, God willing.

the more i think about it, starting with what Ray wrote about Foundational Truths is seeming like the best way.... what do you guys think?

Anthony

[Imabeliever]

I believe what it all boils down to is, If you are truely in Christ, then why would you want to sin any more?

[OBrenda]

Luke 12:47
And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,  But the servant who did things that deserved a beating without knowing it will receive a light beating. Much will be required from everyone to whom much has been given. But even more will be demanded from the one to whom much has been entrusted."

Just something I found in my experience with sharing these truths was,...I would get into a discussion about something, then a few days later I would hear or read one of Ray's teachings and found out I was wrong in an area.  Some of these truths we have learned here are deeper and more complicated than we currently have an understanding for.

The longer I walk in these truths in my Life, the more God confirms that they are true, and not just some new teaching by a dynamic Teacher!  Remember in school we learned math, it was only after using math for several years did we understand how it effects so much in our lives!  (Like being overdrawn in your checking account)

I love that Ray said in one of his audios, "He is still amazed at how much he doesn't know about the Bible"  If Ray believes this about himself, I have a long way to go!

[Dave in Tenn]

The mouth of flesh is capable of every sort of blasphemy and rebellion.  Don't be too hasty to write such people off.

Saul was on his way to persecute and murder believers.  I was just stumbling around the internet looking to kill a few minutes laughing at the freak show.  God is not only capable of changing men's hearts, He's the ONLY one capable of doing it, now and later.

[winner08]

So do I have it wrong? The ones that are more wicked (sinful)than other will pay a heaver price?
people like Hitler or Saddam or Stalin and Po Pot. These people murdered millions of people will their stripes be more than mine?

                                    Darrem

[Samson]

i remember reading an email or something where someone said to Ray that since we all are going to be saved anyway he might as well just live it up now.  And Ray responded saying this guy obviously didn't care about Jesus dying for our sins or something of the like.

Do anybody know where this is?  I want to answer this one guy i know question but i just don't know where to start.  it feels like i get flooded with too many answers for him, then mind gets fluttered and i don't know what to say.

Or i guess a better question is whats the best way to respond to someone who says that?

thanks,

Anthony

Hello Anthony,

                    The guy who wrote that E-mail to Ray should listen to or read the Audio or Transcript about How Hard is it to be Saved, I received a similiar response from some people I know(Acquaintances) to that affect; ie- " I might as well Sin and do whatever I want", apparently they either feel that their level of " good " behavior is superior to many others and resent that those who commited horrible acts during their live's(Hitler, Stalin, Manson, Dahmer, etc) shouldn't receive Salvation like them, not realizing if they had the same circumstances, genetics and prior causes to their choices, they would have been just as Bad. Also, some of these people don't realize all of us receive Chastisement to some degree and length, depending on what God deems necessary(learning righteousness through Judgement). I always explain to people that I speak with on this Salvation of All topic that these notoriously wicked people through History don't end up being like they were in the passed because they will repent, it's God's Will; 2 Peter. 3:9.

                     All of this reasoning; " I might as well Sin attitude " sometimes means that God isn't ready for them to embrace the concept, EVENTUAL SALVATION FOR ALL, that is probably why that many years ago when briefly hearing about Universal Salvation, my response was similiar; " If everyone is going to be saved, why bother even trying to act right ", I had the wrong attitude and apparently wasn't ready for God to reveal these Truth's to me, maybe thinking I wasn't as bad as the next guy and deserved a better fate, how self-righteous that thinking was on my part. This kind of thinking in it's ultimate conclusion leads Humans into rating themselves in comparison to other people, Example: " Well I'm better than this guy who lives down the street, yet if you really think about it long enough, you could always find someone who acted better than you did in life, but in reality, if God kept a list of our Sin's in order to determine whether or not we receive Salvation, WE WOULD ALL FAIL, regardless of how many we committed during our live's. It's a good thing other Humans don't decide who deserves or doesn't deserve Salvation.

                     All of us at this Forum should greatly appreciate God opening our eyes to this wonderfull Free Gift of Salvation for All and that Salvation isn't merely for OUR friends, family and those that we personally think should get life, because if left to OUR Carnal Minds, OUR list for who we think should be Saved, would be different than someone else's.

                                     Just my thoughts this Morning after reading this thread.

                                                Kind Regards, Samson.

[Dave in Tenn]

So do I have it wrong? The ones that are more wicked (sinful)than other will pay a heaver price?
people like Hitler or Saddam or Stalin and Po Pot. These people murdered millions of people will their stripes be more than mine?

                                    Darrem

Darren, we have to remember that the 'stripes' verse is a parable.  I believe the understanding is that it refers to two 'breeds' of the Elect or to the called and the Elect, not to unbelievers in general. 

I don't think God's plan is to 'punish' us for our sins, no matter how large or  small, but to use our sins and sinfulness to convince us that we are nothing without Christ.  Even our 'righteousness' is as filthy rags.

This judgement doesn't START with death and resuurection, but has been going on since Adam was in the garden.  Paul makes it very clear that it was the very purpose of the Law to not only define what Sin is, but to show us that we cannot under any circumstance follow it in our flesh.

The Pharisees thought they could but Jesus makes it clear that even stringent obedience to the Letter was not enough when He left his 'law'.  If the best of the best couldn't follow the letter, how do we hope to follow the spirit?  Both laws exist to prove to us what God already knows...that we are carnal, sinful, and unable to do anything good.  Read the first few chapters of Romans and you'll get it out of mind that the Law exists so we can follow it.

It seems clear to me from various scripture and Ray's exposition that final judgement (White Throne) for the mass of Humanity includes both Hitlers and The Called, Dahlmer and the Pharisees.

Ask yourself if you think Dahlmer, knowing his sin and sinfulness, will be more easily converted (not punished) than Pharisee X (upright and 'sinless') who goes to his grave convinced of his own righteousness.  The judgement of God is for a purpose.  That pupose is to mold us into the image of Christ (with ALL that means).  That judgement exists now and will continue.  When, in each of us, that purpose is fulfilled, there will be no more need for judgement.  Stripes?  Please, God. 

 

[AK4]

Great replies all,

Dave and Darren i look at like this about the stripes.

Compare:

This man cheats on his wife and committs adultery.  he has no remorse (really isn't receiving any stripes right now in this age) because he just loves to have sex with alot of different women.  And he's an atheist.

Another man cheats on his wife and commits adultery.  He has some remorse because he knows that one of the commandments state that thou shall commit adultery.  He loves his wife, but he is scared to tell her that he cheated and he suffers all day everyday (he is getting some stripes now) because he knows it was sin and it would kill his wife if she found out. 

Another man who knows about the Spirit of the Law where Jesus said to even lust for a women is adultery, never cheated on his wife, but all day at work (lets make this real tough for him) let's say he's a lifeguard on the beautiful beaches in the Bahamas) he sees all sorts of beautiful women in thong bikini's, and he's suffers everyday because his wife has a medical condition where that they cant have relations as often as he would like, so he has alot of "stirred up energy" .  He tries his best not to lust after these women but there so beautiful and curvaceous  and its killing him IN HIS MIND that he can help but look at these women with lust and that he's breaking Jesus' spiritual laws couple that with his looking at them and more than his wife.  He tries not to look at them this way, turning his head away when he can but its his job to watch everyone on the beach (man as i type this i am starting to feel real sorry for the guy).  So he is receiving daily stripes in this age. this is his hell  this is his lake of fire, Gehenna fire till God purges this lust out of him he'll suffer this.  But he will one day be freed from that lust/hell/lake of fire.

maybe you can look at those 3 men as this:
the atheist= the lost (well were all lost, but you know what i mean)
the 2ND man = the called
the 3rd = the few
the atheist and the 2ND will have to go to the resurrection of Judgement, but third guy was already judging himself now and made in the first resurrection.

Just my honest opinion,

Anthony

[KristaD]

That was an awesome analogy Anthony. I was feeling kind of sorry for the poor guy too .

[roundbellygroove]

I believe what it all boils down to is, If you are truly in Christ, then why would you want to sin any more?

I think Imabeliever nailed it here. I see it as when the Lord reveals his kingdom to someone its a challenge that you cant turn down. Like in both of the parables of the great pearl & the treasure in the field. The finder of the pearl/treasure has to be shown how much more greater in value that pearl/treasure is worth. In fact it is so much in value that in both instance the person sells everything of value to obtain it!  Its only the Lord that can reveal to us the true value of the kingdom than will make us want to turn away from sin. No matter how "hot" the trials may get, you still pursue to get through. There is a real reason to judge yourself. Not because you think you'll be admired by everyone for suffering(like the Pharisees did) or its the fad thing to do at your at your church.(fasting trends) Only the Lord can place that desire in you to want "turn way". 

AK4, That funny that you used the analogy of the man dealing with adultery. I currently that guy right now!!!  I have nothing against my wife but, I come from a background of cheaters. The majority of all my relatives are in multiple relationships, in and out of romances and getting divorced like it going out of style.   Plus I can play a mean guitar!  Getting the opposite sex to respond is not that hard for me to do, But a chance of being one of Christ's elect?  Now that's a challenge worth leaving pot smoking,women chasing, not handling my finances correctly and leaving Babylon(the current church system). Its a tall order but, with Jesus I can overcome it all in the Fathers timing.

OK! Ill get off my soap box. next comment...

Luke 12:47
And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,  But the servant who did things that deserved a beating without knowing it will receive a light beating. Much will be required from everyone to whom much has been given. But even more will be demanded from the one to whom much has been entrusted."

In my personal opinion I think who will get it the worst in the lake of fire is all false teachers/believers of the scriptures. I think the wicked when shown the Lords true righteousness will understand and repent. Its all of those *cough,cough* TBN type teachings that will be hard to purge out. I think of all the tough events that I'm going through just to work out the little bit of Babylon in me. Nevermind what its gong to take to fix a false teacher!

anywho, that's my two cents.

roundbelly

[David]

Despite often being accused of it, Ray has never said that anyone will be saved "anyway", nor do the scriptures.
This is usually one of the first heresies many people coming to understand that ALL will be saved assume. Of course its a completely mistaken assumption. Rays talk on how hard is it to be saved explains this in detail.

[AK4]

Roundbelly,

You know what, when i was typing that scenario up it felt like i was not just writing it, it felt like i was writng it for someone out there and also for me because i am not married but i am very committed to my girlfriend.  And i am trying to overcome this lust also,  ive never cheated on any girl i was with but man the urges sometimes.  Now feel like i am that third guy in that scenario, turning my head away trying not to just get one quick look.  I tell you its a struggle, but with Jesus I will make it out.

Anthony

[AK4]

i found what i was looking for to that statement in Rays paper below

                 CAN WE LOSE GOD'S SPIRIT AND EONIAN LIFE?
          [Is "once saved always saved" - Scripturally true or false?]
             [And what does it matter? Are not all saved 'anyway'?]

What I'm trying to do here is pull together two or three thoughts.  I just marvel at the people that read our site and are confused about what we teach.  I can understand people going to all these churches and denominations and all these religions; Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and Muslims or whatever and how they are confusing.  But they will read hundreds of pages on our site and they are confused and I just shake my head in wonderment.  So here are just three ideas that people get and some of it from reading our material or they claim that they read it.

1.  That the Saints are already in heaven.  That is if you were a Saint and you died, then you went to heaven.

2.  No you don't go to heaven when you die, but you are saved in this life.  Like right now, if you believe in Christ, you ARE saved now.  You will die and you will come up in the resurrection, but you are presently saved. 

3.  Then we have those who think, well maybe I'm right about all being saved, but this is an enigma to them.  Because does this then means that we are either saved now or we'll be saved when we die or we'll be saved when we die and are resurrected, then we'll be in judgment or whatever, He'll judge everybody and then they will be saved.

So I got this email yesterday, it's a short  email:
'Ray, if everyone goes to heaven, why did Jesus say in Matt. how hard it would be for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven?  Jesus said that after the rich man came to Him and He said that he should sale everything and give to the poor. 
I agree with you on the whole homosexual thing (so this would indicate that he read it, right, because you couldn't agree with the "whole thing" unless you read it).  But why do we have to make a stand against it, if they are all going to heaven anyway?  What is the point of taking up your cross and following Jesus, which we all know is a very hard thing to do.  I'm really not trying to be sarcastic (I believe him, he's not trying to be nasty, he's not one of these guys that say, 'oh Ray, so I guess I can go out and fornicate and do whatever I want.'  No, this one is asking sincerely.  He said I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, he said I really want to know this), but what does it profit me to live a godly life?  When in actual fact I could go out and live the life of enjoying as much sex as I want, disobeying His commandments, rejecting the truth that He is, and still enjoy the same everlasting life.  Why should I deny myself all that worldly pleasure, if it all leads to God anyway?'

What does all this matter?  Why are we even here having a Bible study today, everybody is going to be saved 'anyway'?  No they are not!  No one will ever be saved 'anyway.' 
That's what I wrote back to him and I said, no one ever was or ever will be saved 'anyway.'  There is only one way and it is not any way, it is through Jesus Christ who is the Life you see, "the Way, the Truth, and the Life" (John 14:6).  That's the ONLY way.  But people think like this alright.  And I've got another email here.

I finally came up with a title 'Can we lose God's Spirit and eonian life?'  Can we lose it?  Is 'Once saved always saved' Scripturally true or false?  And what does it mean?  Are not all saved 'anyway'? 
I've already covered that a little bit.  So we need to be careful that we don't base our salvation and blessed assurance on such, whether it's faulty translations or just wishful thinking, like these emails I'm getting here.

[AK4]

the whole article answers this statement

[Phill B]

Great sharing everyone here on this thread - thankyou!

Ray mentions this topic briefly in his latest August 2008 Bible Study 2-set audio gems.

I not sure of his exact wording but Rays message was:

No, not everyone will be saved ANYWAY, but yes, everyone will be saved GODSWAY!