Difficult Passages

[Sozo]

Has Ray addressed the following passages before?  I have been unable to find it if he has.

Numbers 31:7-18

"They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men.  All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle.  They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword.  Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder.  They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived.  After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp.  But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle.  "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded.  "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor.  They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people.  Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.  Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."


Obviously these women were taken against their will.  This would have been murder, kidnapping and rape.  The whole scenario could possibly even be labeled as genocide. 

Maybe I'm jumping the gun by asking about this before I have spent much time studying it.  I guess I'm hoping someone can point me in the right direction on these passages.  Any insight would be helpful.

Thanks

[Kent]

Where does it say anything about rape?

Murder? I dont see removing a proven threat as murder. It's not just semantics either. These weren't innocent people. The innocent people were spared. Does the fact that women were killed bother you? Read it again and see what they did.

Women want(ed) equality? Then they can be treated as equals.

[hillsbororiver]

  But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle.  "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded.  "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor.  They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. 

Hi Sozo,

We must not look at the OT as merely some history of ancient days, in fact it is at least as much a prophecy/shadow/type of what is to come in a spiritual sense, this very well may be speaking in physical terms the spiritual slaying that transpires in the LOF.

Who are/were these women?

These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor.  They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people.

Could they also be?

Rev 17:5  And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Some food for thought......

Peace,

Joe

P.S. Remember the entire bible is a parable. 

[Sozo]

Where does it say anything about rape?

Murder? I dont see removing a proven threat as murder. It's not just semantics either. These weren't innocent people. The innocent people were spared. Does the fact that women were killed bother you? Read it again and see what they did.

Women want(ed) equality? Then they can be treated as equals.

Your right.  It says nothing about rape.  However, if a woman is taken and forced to become your wife, then doesn't it stand to reason that the woman would also be forced to have sex?  Wouldn't that be rape?

You said removing a threat is not murder.  According to these passages the threat was already removed.  The only reason some of the women were killed is because they were not virgins.  So there was no threat.  Would this not be considered murder?

I'm not trying to start an argument with anyone on this.  I'm just looking for a little insight.

Thanks,

Jason

[Sozo]

We must not look at the OT as merely some history of ancient days, in fact it is at least as much a prophecy/shadow/type of what is to come in a spiritual sense, this very well may be speaking in physical terms the spiritual slaying that transpires in the LOF.

Who are/were these women?

These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor.  They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people.

Could they also be?

Rev 17:5  And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Some food for thought......

Peace,

Joe

P.S. Remember the entire bible is a parable. 

So are you saying that this was not an actual event that took place?  Are you suggesting that it is in fact, just a parable?

[Kat]

Hi Jason,

One way I try to look at death that must come to all in this world, sometimes the way it happens is terrible, but it's part of the "experience of evil" (Ecc 1:13) that we all must go through, as we all will die.  So all those people died... would it have been better for them to continue in their pagan ways in this world?  God did give them physical life and they will be in the resurrection of the dead and be brought to salvation.  That is ultimately what it's all about, not having long years in this world.

Also as Joe says those things that happened in the OT are shadows of spiritual things.   As we are to be growing in knowledge and becoming more spiritual minded, but when you began to focus to much on physical/temporary things what happens?

Mat 14:28  And Peter answered Him and said, LORD, if it is You, tell me to come to You on the water.
v. 29  And He said, Come. And when Peter had come down out of the boat, he walked on the water to go to Jesus.
v. 30  But seeing that the wind was strong, he was afraid. And beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me!
v. 31  And immediately Jesus stretched out His hand and caught him; and said to him, Little-faith! Why did you doubt?

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[rjsurfs]

This would have been murder, kidnapping and rape.  The whole scenario could possibly even be labeled as genocide. 

Hi Sozo,

I'm trying to understand and help you understand... why is this instance of murder, kidnapping, and rape any different to you than any other instance of murder, kidnapping, and rape that has ever taken place in God's world... where he is all in all?

Bobby

[Beloved]

I agree with Joe Kat and Flagron you have to read these scriptures spiritually, they were real events recorded because of significant truths in them.

To understand Num 31 you also have to go back to Num 25 to see the spiriual crime.

It is were Phineus took a javelin and killed a couple : Simeon (one who obey God) and the woman Corbi (liar), she was one of the women in this culture  that were  doing this and they were corrupting the covenant. There was a major plague laid on Israel.  

Phineus (the high priest) in his zeal was able to divert the wrath of God and he was commended and approved by God because he represents the future priests who will lead the church through the LOF and also divert a plague.

The earth is corrupt and does this violence all the time in real life , but in the heavenly, those who should die, will be shown mercy but their actions will be judged and they will be made righteous.  

The medianits were under grace (five ) but now the sons of their king were killed as well as Balam the son of Beor.  

Midian means Judgement, Balaam the ancient of the people; the destruction of the people  Beor the burning.  The five sons names mean Evimeans I unjust Rekem means friendship Zur rmeans rock, Hur (name of 4 Israelites (one husband to Mirium) and one Midianite, Hur means ( liberty, whiteness whole) and Reba means fourth (symbolic of earthy) Thes names are all auspicious.

God is Spirit and his actions are too.

Anyway this is the way I see this passage

beloved

[Sozo]

Hi Sozo,

I'm trying to understand and help you understand... why is this instance of murder, kidnapping, and rape any different to you than any other instance of murder, kidnapping, and rape that has ever taken place in God's world... where he is all in all?

Bobby

Good question Bobby.  I think this one is different as are a few others such as the battle of Jericho for the following reasons:  Before these things took place, God had not to long ago given his people commandments that they should not murder, steal, commit adultery, etc.  And then just a few years later, these passages such as the battle of Jericho found in Joshua say that God commanded them to go in and kill every thing that breathed.

Now fast forward a few thousand years to today.  Why couldn't someone justify their religious genocide by saying God told them to do it?  Wouldn't we all cry out that they are doing wrong and show them God's law that it is wrong to do these atrocities and show them where Jesus said to love your neighbor?  Would they then be wrong by showing us these passages as justification for their actions?

Don't misunderstand me.  I completely understand that God has created evil and uses it for a purpose.  I understand what Kat has said in her post above.  I understand that we all experience evil and that we all die.  So let me get to the point and tell you the main thoughts I am having on all of this.

Here they are:
Are these stories actual historical events that took place?
     If no and they are parables, how can we show that they are parables.

If yes, did God actually command his people to do this or is it possible that they did it and justified there actions by saying God told them to do it?
     If God commanded it then how do we reconcile this with his previous commands?
     If they used God to justify this, then how can the original scriptures be infallible?

Am I thinking too much?  Am I thinking from a completely carnal point of view?

[Sozo]

Several of you have said that this is a parable or that we need to understand it from a spiritual POV.

We must not look at the OT as merely some history of ancient days, in fact it is at least as much a prophecy/shadow/type of what is to come in a spiritual sense, this very well may be speaking in physical terms the spiritual slaying that transpires in the LOF.

..........

P.S. Remember the entire bible is a parable. 

Also as Joe says those things that happened in the OT are shadows of spiritual things.   As we are to be growing in knowledge and becoming more spiritual minded......

FACT ::It is a parable...... thinking leterally of rape, murder,,, ect., in any sense in the Gosple, will/can only bring out the sadistic nature of the BEAST.

Is the beast in me showing his ugly head by questioning this?

I agree with Joe Kat and Flagron you have to read these scriptures spiritually, they were real events recorded because of significant truths in them.

I understand that we must have a spiritual understanding.  If not, we will never understand the message.  However, the questions that I keep having are the ones I posted in my reply above.

Are these stories actual historical events that took place?
     If no and they are parables (as some of you have suggested), how can we show that they are parables.

If yes, did God actually command his people to do this or is it possible that they did it and justified there actions by saying God told them to do it?
     If God commanded it then how do we reconcile this with his previous commands?
     If they used God to justify this, then how can the original scriptures be infallible?

[Beloved]

If yes, did God actually command his people to do this or is it possible that they did it and justified there actions by saying God told them to do it?
     If God commanded it then how do we reconcile this with his previous commands?
     If they used God to justify this, then how can the original scriptures be infallible?

Am I thinking too much?  Am I thinking from a completely carnal


Sorry Sozo I misunderstood your question, because I didn't exactly know what your asking.

During the OT God spoke to and through men, Today it is the spirit of God that comes into each of us and he speaks to us eachand leads  us to Truth...it will be spiritual Truth and not carnal. 

Venegenge is God's alone...when things happen now most are from the Father of lies, The spirit of truth says ALL men will be saved...and we know that we are in Christ if we love our brethern (believers especially and others because they will be)

No one today especiall believers can justify acting carnally,

Gal 5:25  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit

Eph 2:18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Rom 8:5  For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:8  So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1Jn 2:16  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

God has not changed but now like Abraham He lets those that obey Him see what He is was really doing and what He will do in the future.

beloved

[Kat]

Hi Jason,

Here is an e-mail that Ray gives an answer to this subject.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6893.0.html -----

COMMENT:  You do not under the 6th commandment. It does not say "Thou shalt not KILL" in the Hebrew manuscripts. It says, "Thou shalt not MURDER." Big big difference. Soldiers kill in war, they do not murder. Murder is the illegal killing of someone. When God told the Israelite to kill all of the pagans which were committing every conceivable kind of crime including burning the little children in fire, He was not telling them to commit sin. It was not a sin to kill these people at God's command, because they were not "murdering" them which would have been breaking God's commandment and which then would have been a contradiction.

    Maybe cool off a big and starting at the top of my home page by reading my first paper:  'YOU FOOLS! YOU HYPOCRITES! YOU FOOLS!"  You will learn more in one hour than in four years of Christian seminary.

    God be with you,

    Ray

[Beloved]

Good point Kat I assumed everyone knew the difference between kill and murder from Ray's writings.

Glad you were quick to bring up the link to his writings to read.

But even killing is not even permissible, not in the physical or  even in the mind, such a thing as to call a person Raca is condemmed.

Question to kat : Ray index of subjects have you updated them with the emails that have since come in ?  I know it is a daunting task to even to have done the original one. 

beloved

[Sozo]

I do understand the difference between killing and murder.  However, what I don't understand is how the following is considered killing and not murder:

"Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.  Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves."

Why would the virgin girls not be held to the same standard as the boys and the women who were not virgins?  After all, were they not also among the pagans that committed these acts for which God was bringing about their destruction?

According to these passages, the one and only reason that they were allowed to live is because they were virgins.  So whether one of these virgins sacrificed a child in the fire or worshiped another god had nothing to do with whether they lived or died.

So did God command Israel to let them live because they were virgins (regardless of whether or not they were partaking in the pagan atrocities) or did Israel take these spoils of war for their on pleasure and then use God to justify their actions?

[OBrenda]

I noticed that in reading this it is Moses who Say's:

But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle.  "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded.  "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor.  They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people.  Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.  Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves

It does not say at this part that it was God's command, but just Moses.
Was Moses above going beyond God's comand?
This is an honest question, I would also like to understand?

Brenda

[Beloved]

This is getting a little wider in scope now.

lThe Boy is a Midian and when he grows up would contaminate the physical females who were in the covenant.

Jesus is awaiting his spiritual bride (made up of males and females.  Jesus is the spiritual male, He too died physically and when resurrected He was then eligible to remarry israel whom He  divorced.  The gentiles then could be taken back into the fold.

The physical women who were not virgins

Lev 21:7  They shall not take a wife that is a whore, or profane; neither shall they take a woman put away from her husband: for he is holy unto his God.

Now to the Virgins remember that they too had to be purified. They were sexually pure but not clean

(Deu 21:10)  When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive,
(Deu 21:11)  And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife;

(Deu 21:12) Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; (Her glory was removed as well as her beast portion the nails pared and also removed)

(Deu 21:13)  And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.

There is a governmental act on the spiritual level that will always be maintained in the physical. The nation of Israel was seen as a woman

Many women died in child birth in the past and if they had "issue or bleeding disorder' would have been unclean there was always a shortage of wome in many cultures. Even the american Indians in the USAs took young women into their tribes.

Men and women have different spiritual meanings in scriptures,

In the new testament They were told to protect the widows and fatherless.

The widow is spiritually clean, the death freed her from her husband, the fatherless encompass all who no longer as seen as being children of God but as children of satan. Both need to be protected in the physical and in the spiritual.

David could marry Abigail after the death of Naman and Bathsheba after the death of urizah.  These marriages are highly significant in the spiritually.

beloved

[Beloved]

I am so sorry Roger, I did not do a spellcheck and messed up your name. Flagron how funny...

You are certainly right though these OT things are quite complex. Sometimes, you have to read them in context of the OT and then see through the new eyes of the NT to see what is going on.

Christ came to fulfill the OT

beloved.

[Dave in Tenn]

I have nothing to teach here, but hopefully a 'perspective' that won't muddy the waters too much.

This is obviously a startling verse to run across, but it's part of a larger story even in the facts presented.  To my eyes, there is frustration in Moses that the original plan had not been carried out.  What was the original plan?  Who made it?  Did Moses himself compromise the plan?  What, if any, were the ramifications of that?  I don't know the answers, I just know if I was looking, there would be things preceding and following these verses that I'd want to be looking into to more fully understand in the natural, historical message. 

[ericsteven]

Sozo, I'll take a stab at answering your questions, if I may.

You ask, Are these stories actual historical events that took place?

Yes, they are.  Though I can understand where there could be some confusion regarding this word 'parable,' especially when many people on the forum are reiterating the whole Bible is a parable, and then from Ray's paper on Lazarus and the Rich Man, he writes this:
   
Jesus spoke in parables throughout His whole ministry. In Matthew chapter 13, we are given seven different parables.  No parable is literal or historical.  The second we make a parable literal, it ceases to be a parable.  Jesus spoke ONLY in parables (not true life or historical stories) among the masses of people who followed Him wherever He went.

I'm not trying to cause dissension in the ranks, but perhaps referring to the Scriptures as parables, especially in light of what Ray has written in the above quotation, is not the best way to describe the historical events recorded.  I prefer to use a longer explanation myself:  They are actual historical events that God planned and brought to fruition in order to provide examples to us of moral and spiritual truths.  To each his own. 

You ask, did God actually command his people to do this?

If  by 'this,' you mean the killing of the Midianites, yes He did.
   
Num 25:16ff     The LORD said to Moses, "Treat the Midianites as enemies and kill them, because they treated you as enemies when they deceived you in the affair of Peor and their sister Cozbi, the daughter of a Midianite leader, the woman who was killed when the plague came as a result of Peor."

Though there are commands given by God that could be argued by some to suggest genocide, especially in Deuteronomy, I would be very careful to suggest that the command in this instance was of a genocidal nature.  In Joshua 13, in describing the land division given to the tribe of Rueben, there is a short reference to this incident in Numbers:

Jos 13:21ff   —all the towns on the plateau and the entire realm of Sihon king of the Amorites, who ruled at Heshbon. Moses had defeated him and the Midianite chiefs, Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—princes allied with Sihon—who lived in that country.  In addition to those slain in battle, the Israelites had put to the sword Balaam son of Beor, who practiced divination.

From the International Standard Bible Excyclopedia:

"...the biblical evidence suggests that the Midianites ranged over a large area, including northwest Arabia, southern Transjordan, the Arabah, portions of the Negeb, and possibly northern Sinai.  Although northwest Arabia eventually became associated with the land of Midian, probably the range of the Midianites at one time was much larger...Further, some research has raised the possibility that Midian refers not to a land but to an amorphous league of tribes. This league dominated the people and areas of the southern Transjordan, Negeb, and portions of Arabia from the Late Bronze Age until approvimately the 11th century B.C., when other people gradually supplanted the league."   

Joshua says that it was those five Midianite chiefs and their people that were allied with Sihon and who lived in that country that were the object of the Lord's wrath, not the whole Midianite people in the entirety of the world.  Based on the fact that the Midianites appear again in the time of the judges, we have to assume that when the Scriptures say in Numbers 31:7 that the Israelites "killed every man," it means they killed every man belonging to that group of Midianites lead by the five chiefs of that area allied to Sihon, not every man who was a Midianite in the whole land, otherwise there would be no Midianites to mention in succeeding events.

You ask, So did God command Israel to let them live because they were virgins (regardless of whether or not they were partaking in the pagan atrocities) or did Israel take these spoils of war for their on pleasure and then use God to justify their actions?

I would think that if the Israelites took these spoils of war for their own pleasure and used God to justify their actions, God would have had something negative to say about it.  On the contrary, we have this is Numbers 31:41.

Num 31:41   Moses gave the tribute to Eleazar the priest as the LORD's part, as the LORD commanded Moses.

The spoils and plunder were divided between the soldiers and the community (verse 27), with a tribute part for the priests being set aside from the soldiers half (verse 28-29).  The priests then brought that tribute "into the Tent of Meeting as a memorial for the Israelites before the Lord" (Num 31:54).

And if you notice in Numbers 31:32ff, the women who had never slept with a man were considered part of the plunder.

Num 31:32ff     The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, 72,000 cattle, 61,000 donkeys and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.

So I think it's obvious that the Lord approved of what the Israelites did, and this is not just an instance of a group of people using their God as justification for their evil deeds.

The question then becomes, why were the virgin women spared?  Was that a direct command from God?

Perhaps it was simply an act of mercy.  I don't know for sure.  Scripturally speaking, there is no evidence that God spoke any command of that nature to Moses to give to the Israelites.  However, throughout this whole incident, there is also no evidence that Moses was acting in contradiction to what the Lord wanted him to do.  Just because in this instance there is no "The Lord said to Moses" does not mean that Moses was commanding something outside the wishes of God.

In my mind, any question as to why would only be speculation, as the Scriptures do not come out and specifically say why.  What I am more sure about is that the assertion that these women were raped or used as sexual objects is false.

A couple of verses after Moses commands the virgin women to be spared, he commands the following in accordance with the Law:

Num 31:19   All of you who have killed anyone or touched anyone who was killed must stay outside the camp seven days. On the third and seventh days you must purify yourselves and your captives.

Remember, many of the men who had engaged in the fornication with the Midianite women were dead from the plague God had sent, so the remaining men more than likely had the fear of God put in them that if they did anything wrong, they would surely meet a similar fate.  Surely they would have followed this above command as flawlessly as possible.  Purifying, to me, does not equate to rape and wanton sexual gratification. 

The fact that many men had just died as punishment from God for commiting adultery and fornication with these Midianite women, would cause the remaining men to think twice about doing anything abhorent or immoral with them. 

Those are some of my thoughts on your questions.  Hopefully they are of some help.

God bless,  Eric   

[Sozo]

Eric,

Thank you so much for your response.  It indeed was very helpful.  I can now go back and take another look at these passages with the insight you have provided.

Thanks again,

Jason