GWT Judgement scenario

[AK4]

Here is a scenario that i put in a forum and Im still waiting to get an answer from someone.


Before i give you just some of the MANY scriptures that will debunk this GWT Judgement scenario, lets make this person who is getting judged be you, YOUR NAME HERE. Lets see if you still love this kind of a god and where your heart is.



god: YOUR NAME HERE , you are judged guilty and now i will destroy you, YOUR NAME HERE , forever (or barbeque you for those who believe in a hell). Yeah I know I created you, YOUR NAME HERE , for dishonor and you had no choice in that matter and yes I know I said numerous times in my word that I am a god of love and rich in mercies, but you, YOUR NAME HERE , have served your purpose of dishonor. Yes I did create you, YOUR NAME HERE , along with creation in subject of vanity, not willingly, and with hope, but Im sorry, well not really because you, YOUR NAME HERE , knew my standards and you didnt live up to them. You, YOUR NAME HERE , fail short ONLY here. See you , YOUR NAME HERE ,were timid and fearful and because of that i must annihilate you, YOUR NAME HERE , (or barbeque) in my very hot and steamy lake of fire that is unquenchable and the worm never rots. Its final. You, YOUR NAME HERE , had one shot and blew it. Yes,yes, I judge in righteousness and this is fair. I created you, YOUR NAME HERE , for dishonor and that was your purpose. You, YOUR NAME HERE , have no other purpose and now i will focus on the 10% of all humanity that has ever lived that i gave my grace to and they followed. I love them more than i love you, YOUR NAME HERE , and they are my favorites now. Thank you for doing everything i wanted you,YOUR NAME HERE , to do and now good(bad)-bye!! ( I didnt capitolize god in any of that because that is not a god i would worship)


21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.



Quote from someone on that forum

Again, this is just how you feel, not what the bible teaches. You give me no proof. Just saying that "all will be saved in the name of Jesus" doesn't do it. 

Again think about this scenario. And again, do you believe God teaches this in his Word. Do you think this is justice? Fair? Just for being timid and fearful?

This not how i feel and it sure isnt what He teaches in His Word.

Dont just think about this, PRAY ABOUT THIS.

ps--And this is the good new gospel that was to be preached to the world?! When we even Jesus said no one can come to Him unless Father draws/drags them.
So in your interpretation of the Word, someone who dont chose to follow Christ is condemned forever when THE ONLY WAY TO HIM IS IF THE FATHER DRAWS HIM---do you see a contradiction there.

[Kat]

Hi Anthony,

You have to consider that you have studied the material on this site for quite some time with your eyes opened, in order to believe as you do.  Now you want to convince these blind Christians to believe your scenario in a few paragraphs? 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[AK4]

Hi Kat,

Not really.  Its more like question what they've been taught and maybe as they question and question and question God may open their eyes.  When i had posted that scenerion to the guy, he aked me for scriptures to prove what i believe so instead of giving him scripture after scripture, i gave him that scenario so he would just think on what he believes.

[Kat]

Well it's certainly possible.  I guess God gives some a desire to reach into those areas and maybe He wants to pull someone out that way, it's possible.  He has not given me the desire to take on that battle.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Samson]

Anthony,

             There is no question about your zeal, it's admirable, just be cautious you don't get involved in what could turn out to be a senseless debate. To Illustrate: I spent twenty years preaching house to house(As A JW) and informally on a regular basis. Whenever I got into a discussion about God's punishments and they believed in Hellfire, in most cases I couldn't even convince them that God was merciful and was going to Annihilate the wicked instead. My point is that if their mindset is that God's going to Eternally torture the Unsaved and Wicked and they continue to debate, rather than ask sincere questions as to why everyone is eventually going to be saved and Why punishment(chastisement) is temporary and remedial, then they really aren't interested in The Truth at this time. Traumatic experiences coupled with severe problems in Life are usually the CAUSE that leads to someone sincerely asking Why and also after a humbling or humiliating experience.

                                 Just my thoughts Brother, no criticism intended,

                                              Samson.

[musicman]

I will answer it from a churchaholic's point of view.

We have a free will.  God does not force us to do anything.  You lie!!!  You're a lier.  We were not made without choices.  You're a lying lier who tells lots of lies!!  There needs to be a hell!!  You are a lying liability who doesn't believe that god must punish lying sinners.  You think they get off scott free?  We are not robots!!  We must be in control of our own destiny!!  I chose to be born and to worship Christ.  And to think the way I think.  And to look the way I look.  And to smell the way I smell.  And. . . .and.. . . .uuuummmmm. . . . lier lier pants on fire!!  In hell!! You lier!! 

[AK4]

Musicman LOL  that is pretty much how they be.

Samson and Kat,

I agree.  I talk/type back to them for two reasons--- to strengthen/expand my knowledge of scripture and to maybe get people to question some of the things that is this life and not to accept everything they hear/read.  Oh, i cant deny, the added bonus of maybe planting a seed.

Ive have and is still learning a lot though from doing this. Most of all i am learning that just discussing/debating people can become an idol of the heart, it can become a form of boasting when you think you know more than someone else. Ive learned some of the grounds people are coming from and where i used to be--from what they were taught about God and the Word, and that it really is pointless (at least at face value) of talking with people who dont/cant see the Word spiritually. 

I didnt understand the Paul/Peter thing that Ray wrote about until i read some of the arguements this one person had about Paul (of course i had to defend Paul), and the thread here about teaching helped, because some people God has no allowed to see yet.

Its a learning experience and some of us have to learn by experiencing it, not just someone else telling us.  Fortunetly/unfortunely thats me and others.

In Jesus, 

Anthony

ps thanks for the positive reinforcement

[winner08]

AK4 I have to watch myself with my ego. Sometimes I get to thinking I know certain things about certain subjects. I really don't. Some will ask me about things and I state what I think is right and I tell them this is just my opinion on this matter. I could be wrong. Sometimes If I think they are really interested I will tell them about Ray's teachings and where to find the site at.

Darren

PS did that make any since?

[AK4]

AK4 I have to watch myself with my ego. Sometimes I get to thinking I know certain things about certain subjects. I really don't. Some will ask me about things and I state what I think is right and I tell them this is just my opinion on this matter. I could be wrong. Sometimes If I think they are really interested I will tell them about Ray's teachings and where to find the site at.

Darren

PS did that make any since?

Totally, thats what i think God keeps reminding me whenever i talk to someone about what we know here.  Its like God reminds me of that paper that Ray wrote saying something about ---anyone of us could have been hitler or someone and we should be thankful and careful (paraphrasing)

I have directed maybe two or three people to BT because they actually seemed like they wanted to know the Truth, but if someone isnt like that i wont direct them there

Anthony

[legoman]

I will answer it from a churchaholic's point of view.

We have a free will.  God does not force us to do anything.  You lie!!!  You're a lier.  We were not made without choices.  You're a lying lier who tells lots of lies!!  There needs to be a hell!!  You are a lying liability who doesn't believe that god must punish lying sinners.  You think they get off scott free?  We are not robots!!  We must be in control of our own destiny!!  I chose to be born and to worship Christ.  And to think the way I think.  And to look the way I look.  And to smell the way I smell.  And. . . .and.. . . .uuuummmmm. . . . lier lier pants on fire!!  In hell!! You lier!! 

LOL thanks musicman - this made my day.

AK4 I hope your discussions are going better than mine.  The free will thing is really tough for some people.  Some people just aren't willing to believe we cannot have free will.

I'm trying to explain that God is in control of everything, then they say that means God is in control of all murders, therefore God is a murderer and breaks his own commandmants, so that doesn't make sense to them.

How do I respond to that?  I know Ray has covered it in his emails and papers, but it is tough to cover it in as much depth as Ray has.

Cheers,
Kevin

[AK4]

therefore God is a murderer and breaks his own commandmants, so that doesn't make sense to them.

How do I respond to that?  I know Ray has covered it in his emails and papers, but it is tough to cover it in as much depth as Ray has.

Cheers,
Kevin

First off you can tell them that God cant break his own commandments and has "messengers" who does things for him (The Book of Job (satan), the lying spirit to the false prophets, king of babylon, assyria) so God doesnt murder.

And the verse in James where it says God cant be tempted.

Hope this helps

Anthony

[legoman]

Ah good point Anthony.  I forgot about those verses.  Anyone have a link where Ray talks about this?  Obviously I need a refresher.

But just so I make sure I understand this:  God causes everything.  This includes all the bad stuff (war, murders, etc.).  The way he causes the bad stuff is to cause Satan out to do it.  Then Satan willingly does it (not with his free will, but with his caused will).

This is does not mean God sins, because of:
1.  Satan is the one that does, and
2.  It would only be a sin if it was a mistake, or a missing of the mark.

Does that sound right?  This is still a bit confusing to me.  The verses that say God does not tempt don't quite make sense to me yet, as it seems God is "tempting" everyone by "causing" everyone to do what they do.
   
Kevin

[AK4]

It reminds of when Ray wrote at the end of his How we got the Bilbe paper, he posed this question to a friend,

About a year or two ago I was talking on the phone and I said, do you know of one Scripture that you can actually prove to me, that when Jesus Christ returns He kills anyone?  Can you show me a Scripture where Jesus Christ when He comes back to rule and judge the world, that He kills anyone?  I haven't found one yet.  Now that is going to be an eye opener

If you take the book of Revelations literally, yeah theres your proof--but we know its not.

Satan or probably most of the time we volunteer

God doesnt tempt.  heres and example

You have diabetes and you cant eat cake.  You love chocolate too.  Someone brings in a cake to work with DOUBLE CHOCOLATE ICING  (I love making scenerios where the temptation is very hard.  ) You end up eaten the cake.

Did God tempt you to eat it?  No. Someone else brought the cake because it was Joes birthday.  You give in to your cravings for cake because you love chocolate.  Yeah God created you to love chocolate, but he didnt tempt you there.  you volunteered yourself to eat it.

Hope that helps

Anthony

[Kat]

Hi Kevin,

I found this email that I think will help0 you with your question.  It's a long one, but it's a really good explanation.

http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm#freewill2

First I need to clarify our use of words again. The word "free" as it is used in "free will" can ONLY mean that a person can think thoughts, make choices, and perform activities completely on his own with nothing CAUSING him to think, choose, or perform.  That's as clear as I can state it. If something, ANYTHING, causes (or let's get stronger--MAKES) a person think a thought or make a choice or perform an action, then he did not do it FREELY. Don't get me wrong; he may have done it voluntarily, but not FREELY.

Our minds have the power and capability to "choose". A choice is merely "what we prefer." Our brains CAN analyze data, weight pros and cons, and MAKE choices. He can, however, do NONE OF THESE FREELY--that is "without a CAUSE." Let me use a softer expression and maybe it will become clearer.  Do you now agree that we are "influenced" to think things, say things, and do things?  OF COURSE WE ARE! Now then, if something influences you to actually DO something, then that influence WAS THE CAUSE. And whatever caused you to do something MADE you do it. And once something is MADE to do something, it is impossible to ever have been avoided!

I realize that this goes a little beyond psychology and theology 101, but it is not impossible to apprehend. It does take consider time meditating on these things before one becomes COMPLETELY convinced in his own heart and mind that the statements that "ALL is of God" and "God Who operates ALL according to the counsel of own will", are always true under all and every circumstance. Now to your comments:

You suggest that surely God gives us SOME will and SOME choices. Matthew, He gives us THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of choices according to our own wills. It's just that NONE of them are exercised WITHOUT INFLUENCE (or a cause that makes us do as we do). Try some experimenting if you will. Sit still and try to come up with a thought, choice or action that has zero influence.You might think that something even just "pooped into your mind" and that NOTHING caused it. Sure it did. Something did. There are no effects in the physical or mental universe that have no causes.

You use the word "forcing" our foot steps. God never uses that word. But He does use words such as "directs" or "guides". It doesn't take a great deal of energy for God to make people follow the footsteps that He has established for us. The SLIGHTEST motivations in our finances, stomach, social life, egos, etc., will easily cause us to go either this way or that way.

Of course none of this is of any value unless we can establish it in God's Word. Notice what God says regarding our "steps":

"...It is NOT IN MAN...to direct his steps..." (Jer. 10:23).

"A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord DIRECTS HIS STEPS" (Prov. 16:9).

God could have just as easily said: "...the Lord directs HIS WAY" It's all the same to God.

"Man's goings [Heb: steps] ARE OF THE LORD: how can a man then understand HIS OWN WAY? [it matters not if our steps are good or sinful]" (Prov. 20:24).

"For now thou NUMBEREST my steps [THAT'S pretty specific, Matthew]: dost thou NOT watch over my SIN?" (Job 14:16).

"The steps ['steps' is used to symbolize ALL OF MANS DOINGS] OF A MAN ARE ordered [Heb: established] by the Lord" (Psa. 37:23). If ALL man's steps are "established", then of necessity they are ordered by God IN ADVANCE of him taking those ordered steps!

You question God "FORCING people to do evil." God doesn't have to FORCE people to do evil, we do it NATURALLY. It is our NATURE to do evil and commit sins. As I have said: "We are SINNING MACHINES"! God does not FORCE a man to rob a bank. He robs the bank because he is either in a financial bind or is lazy or is lusting for the easy life. Either way, he VOLUNTEERS to rob the bank. Now. . .what INFLUENCES him to rob the bank. Well, we just listed a few reasons. But what specifically at each step of the process causes him to carry out his deed? Thousands of things. Did he bring about the THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of things that influenced (CAUSED) him to follow this path? NO! ABSOLUTE NOT. Where then DID all of it come from? Ultimately we must conclude that it came from GOD! GOD is the Creator. Why even the rotation of earth on its axis CAUSES men to sin!Yes it does. Many people wait until sunset to going about an evening of SINNING--loving the DARKNESS because their deeds are evil.

It's a nice thought that men would come to Jesus and come to God and opening love and adore them. But it's a fantasy. Do we have Scriptural proof of this? HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF VERSES:

"For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace, because the disposition of the flesh [the carnal mind] is ENMITY to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for NEITHER IS IT ABLE" (Rom. 8:6-8).

"Not ONE is just--not even one. Not one is understanding. Not ONE is seeking out God. All AVOID Him... Not one is doing kindness: THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE!" (Rom. 3:11-12).

No, God doesn't need to 'FORCE' people to do evil, neither CAN THEY do good! In fact, Jesus plainly said that:

"NO ONE CAN come to Me if ever the Father Who sends Me should not be drawing [Greek: DRAGGING] him" (John 6:44).

Oh yes, we DO have a will, but our will does not NATURALLY do the will of God.

You say that "warnings and guidance" are useless if we have no will." But we DO have a will. It's just not "free" from causes, that's all. Matthew, surely if our wills were "FREE," someone, at sometime in the history of billions and billions of humans would have chosen ON HIS OWN, by his FREE WILL to DO GOOD. Don't you think? But what saith the Scriptures? No such thing!

You state: "If God determines our footsteps. . .we have no will." Yes we do. And God even CAUSES our wills to come in line with His. Don't you ever pray: "Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven"?  "Not MY will, but THEY will be done"? If our wills are FREE FROM BEING FORCED OR CAUSED OR MADE to do anything, we couldn't even pray these words. That WHY we work out our own salvation in FEAR AND TREMBLING. Because we, of ourselves, CAN DO NOTHING, as Jesus plainly told us. It is a fearful thing to realize that we can do NOTHING on our own. We only THINK that we can. And if that is what we think then we are fools!

"So that, my beloved, according as you always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much rather in my absence, with fear and trembling, be carrying your own salvation into effect, FOR IT IS GOD Who is OPERATING IN YOU TO WILL as well as to work for the sake of His delight" (Phil. 2:12-13).

Even the very "words" that Paul is here speaking to the Philippians are inspired OF GOD to CAUSE these people (and us) to RESPOND to his admonition. Words are powerful. Words CAUSE THINGS TO HAPPEN.  That's why God uses words:

"The WORD of God is LIVING and OPERATIVE, and KEEN above any two-edged sword, and PENETRATING up to the parting of soul and spirit... and is a JUDGE of the sentiments and THOUGHTS OF THE HEART" (Heb. 4:12).

No, God is not playing chess with himself. God IS REPRODUCING HIMSELF! God's purpose for creation is far more than a game of chess. On God's chess board EVERYONE is a king and NO ONE gets "check-mated"! We are ALL WINNERS. We will ALL be the SONS OF GOD IN THE FAMILY OF GOD and Paul tells us that after death is abolished God will be ALL IN ALL (I Cor. 15:28).

How can God hold our face in the fire and at the same time hold US guilty for getting burned, you ask? Well, of course, He doesn't hold our face in the fire, but I know what you mean. I will let God answer your question to the point and very succinctly. The ancient king of Assyria was just as proud of his "free will" as most of humanity is today. Notice how God handled him:

"Woe, Assyria!  Club of My anger! And a rod!  He, in their hand, IS MY MENACE!  Among a nation polluted will I SEND HIM.  And against a people, object of MY RAGE, will I INSTRUCT HIM. To loot loot and to plunder plunder, And to place them for tramping, as the clay of the streets.  YET HE, NOT SO is HE planning. And HIS heart, NOT SO is devising. For to exterminate is in HIS HEART, And to cut off nations not a few" (Isa. 10:5-7).

Are you getting the picture? Continuing:

"I will visit evil on the fruit of the INSOLENT HEART OF THE KING OF ASSYRIA, And the high beauty of his eyes. [Why? Why would God do such a thing? Here's why] For, SAYS HE, 'By the vigor of MY HAND I DID IT, And by MY WISDOM, for understanding have I" (Vers. 12-13).

Next notice what God has to say concerning this king of Assyria's sell-appointed proud "free will" heart:

"Will the ax [the Assyrian king] beautify itself over the one [God] hewing with it?   Should the chief's mace magnify itself over the one [God] waving it? As if a club is also waving the one raising it! As if the rod is raising one who is not wood!" (Isa. 10:15).

Yes, Matthew, God clearly shows us how He "operating all according to the counsel of His own will"! God said that He used the Assyrian king to judge other sinful nations just as surely as if the King were an ax in God's own hand! But the beauty of the whole thing is; the king of Assyria didn't think so. He never dreamed that he was but an ax in the HAND OF GOD his Creator! Amazing! The king took credit for all his exploits and great wisdom of warfare. In reality it was ALL OF GOD. And so one day this king was be embarrassed to tears for his great swelling egotistical boasting. God will chastise him and punish him NOT because he could have done otherwise by some supposed free will, but because (1) in this kings heart he THOUGHT he was accomplishing all these things, and (2) because he ACTUALLY DID DO THESE EVIL THINGS. God us JUSTIFIED. Oh yes He is! This king will be a GREAT SON OF GOD one day and he will THANK GOD for using Him to glorify God's name, fame, and greatness.

And, yes, Job did have a choice. He had and made MANY choices during his ordeal. But God sustained Job's integrity and trust in his God. It was ALL of God. Job knew it. And Job PRAISED GOD FOR IT and God blessed Job DOUBLE! I'll be the first to admit that our thoughts are not God's thoughts, but I am beginning to understand them. Praise God that that!

And so, if all is of God (the good and bad), why does He hold us accountable for our sins and deeds? This time I will let Paul answer:

"For this selfsame thing I rouse you up, so that I should be displaying in you [Pharaoh] My power, and so that My name should be published in the entire earth. Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening. You will be PROTESTING to me, then, 'Why, then is He [God] STILL BLAMING [us for our sins]? for who has WITHSTOOD HIS INTENTION?'" Paul answers this way: "O man! WHO ARE YOU, TO BE SURE, WHO ARE ANSWERING AGAIN TO GOD? That which is molded [that's us] WILL NOT PROTEST TO THE MOLDER, 'Why do you make me thus [a sinner unable and unwilling by my own fabled 'free will' to ever do what is right]?' Or has not the potter [God] the right over the clay [us mortals] out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?" (Rom. 9:17-21).

I hope it is all beginning to make more sense to you, Matthew. Ask God for a spirit of wisdom and He will surely give to you.

Sincerely,

Ray