The Strong delusion

AK4 · October 25, 2008, 12:06:08 AM

Is there anything stronger than this the illusion of "free will"--with every doctrine and almost every religion this will link. I have thought hard about this and this "free will" links to them all. They all link to the thought of free will.

Dont say hell please, yes it may be the most dispicable but its not in alot of religions, so no hell is not the strong(est) delusion. In almost all i have researched free will is in them all

Thoughts are welcomed

Anthony

aqrinc · October 25, 2008, 12:15:45 AM

Anthony,

My vote is for free will as the most pernicious.

George.

Marlene · October 25, 2008, 12:23:48 AM

Anthony, Yes, I agree free will would have to be the one. I didn't even know before God leading me to truth, that I was trying to save myself. Does not get much terrible then that. Here, I would think about New Agers thinking they were a God to themselves. Little did I know, I thought I was one too. I thought, I had the will to do right. He sure had to bring me into what I would call my worse fall towards him. I felt such guilt I felt unpossible to be forgiven.
He gave me victory over it but I still did not feel forgiven. Hating Hell and Myself brought me to Ray's website. You definitely the Self-Will is a delusion. Seeing that man fall is painful indeed. All, kind of things come flooding into you spirit when you learn the truth. After, I have learned I am sure he has let Satan test me by people who send me things from the Babylon teachings or just sometimes when I see scriptures that Babylon taught a certain way. Yes, defintiely the Old Self-Will likes to reclaim its seat. Now, I understand Greater is he who is in you then who is in the world. Yep, he has to take the self-will out of us and put himself in its rightful place.

In His Love,
Marlene
P.S. I know I have plenty of growing to do. But, he sure did give me his victory on things my self-will has tried to do for years. He sure did give me alot to think about. Seeing that beast was really something.

winner08 · October 25, 2008, 12:27:22 AM

I think free will is a great delusion but I do have to say hell is right up there.
Christian hell
Jewish hell
Islam hell
greek hell
hindu hell
babylonian hell
egyptian hell

these all preach the myth of hell, according to Ray. the christian hell is a christian hoax.
just a thought.

Beloved · October 25, 2008, 01:13:09 AM

I believe that Free Will is the great delusion in many religions but not ALL of them.

Many scientists and atheists and some new age beliefs acrually do not believe in free will. They believe that free will is a delusion of mankind. Even Adams the author of "Dilbert" does not believe in it.

Free Will however is the big kahuna of stumbling blocks, it negates God's Sovereignty

(Psa 4:2) Sons of men! till when is my glory for shame? Ye love a vain thing, ye seek a lie. Selah.

beloved

Deborah-Leigh · October 25, 2008, 01:29:58 AM

God has placed "obscurity" in our hearts to NOT know what He is doing. This is a process, purpose and Plan of God that He alone can show or reveal to who HE chooses, His Ways and Thoughts. So the delusion that we have free moral agency is upon us all at first because God has bound us up in vanity according to HIS Purpose.

For me, Free Will is not the delusion. It is the IDOL of the wicked heart.

Arc.

AK4 · October 25, 2008, 01:57:40 AM

Quote from: winner08 on October 25, 2008, 12:27:22 AM
I think free will is a great delusion but I do have to say hell is right up there.
Christian hell
Jewish hell
Islam hell
greek hell
hindu hell
babylonian hell
egyptian hell

these all preach the myth of hell, according to Ray. the christian hell is a christian hoax.
just a thought.

Yes Ray mentions some but not all... For example reincarnation--some believe in that hell is now "hell on earth" or hell may be in that lifetime you are reincarnated until you learn your lesson. When Jesus came that was it... So in otherwords you can CHOOSE in that lifetime to come to Him or not by learning from your past from other lifetimes. Once again free will is put in the situation....

Christian hell---choose to come to God or not
Jewish hell---- same--and some other bizarre stuff i have heard
Islam hell--- Dont believe Jesus is the Son of God--they can choose that or not
greek hell---same as christian hell
hindu hell --can choose to follow budahs teachings or choose the alternative
babylonian hell---traditional christainity and all its nonsense
egyptian hell---same

Now atheists--- There is no God and if there was i wouldnt want to be forced to love him because that is not love

Same thing for agnostics, some catholics, protestants, new agers, etc

Islamists-- believe in hell-- but if they choose to serve only allah then heaven for them

And all other religions and their gods---- "if i choose to do what they want and honor the spirits" etc, etc

See it all falls under man "choosing" what they want or choosing what they think may be true

I am not preaching but did we choose to follow Rays teachings on our own?

Take away the illusion of free will and you only have one will---Gods

Beloved · October 25, 2008, 02:17:23 AM

Hindu do not believe in Buddha, they believe in reincarnation into lower castes if bad higher one if you are good.

Arcturus hit the nail...it is the idol of your heart that is at work...even the atheist or philosopher who DO NOT believe in hell or free will, they themselves are deluded by themselves...they mistake knowledge for WISDOM.

(Isa 48:4) From my knowing that thou art obstinate, And a sinew of iron thy neck, And thy forehead brass,

(Isa 48:5) And I declare to thee from that time, Before it cometh I have caused thee to hear, Lest thou say, `Mine idol hath done them, And my graven image, And my molten image did command them.

(Isa 48:6) Thou hast heard, see the whole of it, And ye, do ye not declare? I have caused thee to hear new things from this time, And things reserved that ye knew not.

beloved

AK4 · October 25, 2008, 02:19:26 AM

As Ray pointed out look at Peter and Paul and the apostles---they thought they could do differently from Gods will. Pharaoh and king of babylon--which has prophetic implications

i could link link this with verses but there is no need to for us.

I guess my point is---with all that we have learned, what can not be linked to "free will"

You take away free will then what doctine can you come up with?

Nothing that i can think of. No thought can even be conceived of without "free will"

I am not saying we have free will. I am saying the illusion of it makes mankind come up with these convoluted ideas about Gods will. But if you takes away that "free will" you can only come up with the one WILL that is true.

Anthony

AK4 · October 25, 2008, 02:29:28 AM

Quote from: Beloved on October 25, 2008, 02:17:23 AM
Hindu do not believe in Buddha, they believe in reincarnation into lower castes if bad higher one if you are good.

Arcturus hit the nail...it is the idol of your heart that is at work...even the atheist or philosopher who DO NOT believe in hell or free will, they themselves are deluded by themselves...they mistake knowledge for WISDOM.

(Isa 48:4) From my knowing that thou art obstinate, And a sinew of iron thy neck, And thy forehead brass,

(Isa 48:5) And I declare to thee from that time, Before it cometh I have caused thee to hear, Lest thou say, `Mine idol hath done them, And my graven image, And my molten image did command them.

(Isa 48:6) Thou hast heard, see the whole of it, And ye, do ye not declare? I have caused thee to hear new things from this time, And things reserved that ye knew not.

beloved

Hinduism, Budism, Confusionism and what ever ism, they all basically believe in self. I do not debate the scriptures they are true. Yes it may be an idol of the heart and that is only proving my point. Free will has to be at least the strongest of the delusion--- i am not saying it is the only delusion.

Is there a stronger delusion than free will? Where free will has no play in it?

i am wanting to see if there is? So far i dont see that.

Martinez · October 25, 2008, 02:37:27 AM

Most Christians simply cannot conceive of us not having free will.

Free will is the loop hole that allows God to burn people alive forever and yet have no blood on His hands!

You would sooner convince them that there's no trinity than no free will.

AK4 · October 25, 2008, 02:39:57 AM

Im sorry i am harping on it.... and this is not my pet peeve either---but can anyone tell me, is there one doctrine/religion that has no link to free will

Anthony

Martinez · October 25, 2008, 02:45:36 AM

I don't think the trinity doctrine has a link to free will.

AK4 · October 25, 2008, 03:10:00 AM

Quote from: Martinez on October 25, 2008, 02:45:36 AM

I don't think the trinity doctrine has a link to free will.

LOL i knew that would be the one that would come up....Its 5 oclock in the morning but i do i have an answer from Rays paper that will take that away so i will answer that when i wake up

Thats the one i thought of when i thought of when typing that post

Traditional christainity thinks that God is a closed family (in their own free will/thought) but God is creating a family--all of humanity.

In their own minds their free will, i wont generalise, but the trinity doctrine people believe that they can come to Jesus on their own.

Now lets say they didnt believe that, what does the trinity doctrine do...oh so much besides divide--- "we are the true church" "we will the ones who are raptured" (pretrib or post trib) and it does something else but it eludes me right now-- im sleepy--- but overall their illusion of free will makes them feel they are the true church, are the ones who will be raptured and something else and its all because of their free will to choose the right church and come to Jesus on their own and be saved on their own free will (they chose Him and not Him choosing them) and etc etc etc.

Anthony

ps i tried anwering it while still awake--silly me

Martinez · October 25, 2008, 03:37:49 AM

The trinity doctrine may encourage all kinds of other golden calves but it doesn't rely on the free will doctrine to exist.

You're not talking how the free will doctrine contributes to other doctrines are you?

are you just talking about other doctrines that need free will to exist?

Beloved · October 25, 2008, 05:01:46 AM

The trinity doctrine may encourage all kinds of other golden calves but it doesn't rely on the free will doctrine to exist .

You're not talking how the free will doctrine contributes to other doctrines are you?

are you just talking about other doctrines that need free will to exist?

Ah but it does,

Rene descartes remember what he said "cogito ergo sum"
(Latin: "I think, therefore I am.

The Trinity is the ultimate assumption that man has the ability to understand God It came straight out of Greek thinking being the counterpart of tripartite human body: soul body and spirit

Another example as Ray would say...they hate the Truth

What part of "One" do they not understand

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: Yahweh, is our God,-Yahweh alone.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

(Mat 1:18) Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

No matter how much the Word said One.....

they chose to believe in at first........ two then .....three, .....then the Nicean Creed...where you choose to believe trinity or you are declared a heretic...and then burned so you could get an early start in hell.

beloved

Deborah-Leigh · October 25, 2008, 05:11:55 AM

and that "Hell" was for eternity!

All go against God's Will and not one can thwart His Plan.

Arc

Martinez · October 25, 2008, 05:12:40 AM

Oky doky!

I forgot about the whole body soul and spirit comparison to the trinity thing.

I haven't thought about the trinity for such a long time.
Whilst I did believe in it, it was nothing for me to give it up as an idol.
It was never really a big part of my understanding.

Longhorn · October 25, 2008, 07:14:09 AM

Quote from: aqr on October 25, 2008, 12:15:45 AM
Anthony,

My vote is for free will as the most pernicious.

George.

Now dangit George, you know old Longhorn here dont have a clue what pernicious means.

Love in Christ

Longhorn

AK4 · October 25, 2008, 08:56:15 AM

Quote from: Beloved on October 25, 2008, 05:01:46 AM
The trinity doctrine may encourage all kinds of other golden calves but it doesn't rely on the free will doctrine to exist .

You're not talking how the free will doctrine contributes to other doctrines are you?

are you just talking about other doctrines that need free will to exist?

Ah but it does,

Rene descartes remember what he said "cogito ergo sum"
(Latin: "I think, therefore I am.

The Trinity is the ultimate assumption that man has the ability to understand God It came straight out of Greek thinking being the counterpart of tripartite human body: soul body and spirit

Another example as Ray would say...they hate the Truth

What part of "One" do they not understand

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: Yahweh, is our God,-Yahweh alone.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

(Mat 1:18) Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

No matter how much the Word said One.....

they chose to believe in at first........ two then .....three, .....then the Nicean Creed...where you choose to believe trinity or you are declared a heretic...and then burned so you could get an early start in hell.

beloved

Thanks for doing the leg work for me Beloved

The Strong delusion

AK4

aqrinc

Marlene

winner08

Beloved

Deborah-Leigh

AK4

Beloved

AK4

AK4

Martinez

AK4

Martinez

AK4

Martinez

Beloved

Deborah-Leigh

Martinez

Longhorn

AK4