Having Trouble Understanding the "Law"

[Becky]

gee i don't know the other laws like shellfish...gee that is a new one for me!

[Becky]

Rom 13:8  Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9  For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Rom 13:10  Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

That seemed to me to be an excellent summary of how I understand that Christ's doctrine of love replaces and exceeds the law of the ten commandments.  If we truly follow Christ's doctrine such that we  love God and our neighbor, we wouldn't even think of doing anything outlined in the ten commandments.


Nowhere in the ten commandments does it address food or any sex prohibitions other than adultery.  Clearly to me adultery is not necessarily the same a homosexuality or fornication.


The subject of shellfish and homosexuality (fornication if you prefer) seems to keep coming up.  Perhaps someone can quote from scripture where Christ tells us these are sinful.

I remember the nuns  in catholic school telling us that if we masterbated we would go to hell.  If it's true then I guess I would have been  joining maybe 95% of the male teenage  population :lol:

While homosexuality is looked upon as taboo or a perversion  in ours and many other societies, I've read somewhere that it is not considered such in some societies , inlcluding certain American Indian tribes, that had not heard of the old testament.

While I don't condone  or even understand it all that well. I have friends who are a gay couple.  They are just as much in love with each other as I am with my wife.  I personally have just never considered it any of my concern whether what they do sexually with each other  is sinful or not.  

The point of this thread though asks .. are they fulfilling Christ's commandments of love.  I don't see how they are breaking any of the ten commandments either.

I am totally confused on this issue, as well,  even after all the scripture quoted.  I guess you can hit me with the standard eyes and ears too ignorant to understand line.  I plead guilty.

feat

1 Corinthians 6:9-20 (New International Version)

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Sexual Immorality
12"Everything is permissible for me"â€"but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"â€"but I will not be mastered by anything. 13"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"â€"but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."[a] 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

Well Jesus didn't say it, but here is a new testament passage on the subject... I'm confused too!

[Harryfeat]

gee i don't know the other laws like shellfish...gee that is a new one for me!

I think you can find most of  it in Leviticus.

Don't be sad if you find it boring and have difficulty finishing it.  I couldn't get through it in one sitting myself.

feat

[Becky]

yeah...hmm.. i read that in october... i did kindof skim over it :oops:

[Becky]

I read the part in Leviticus about what to eat and what not to eat.... do the Jews today really follow all these laws to the letter???  it seems impossible... it say if they do eat such and such ... they'll be cut off... wouldn't you think there would be fewer Jews?

(sorry to get side tracked)

[Steve Crook]

The rest of the laws are manmade, added laws that basically let the Jews "do their thing". Man kept adding, but never was satisfied with what our Father said were the "rules" of the game.

Food does not defile a man, and homosexuality was a named offense and an abominable sin, so it leads me to believe that since Christ Is, was, and will be, that homosexuality is still an abomination to our Lord, because he never stated otherwise. If he law brings us to Christ, then we must have already at least seen that homosexuality is stated to be a sin under the law.

I guess, in my mind, I can seperate the 2 simply because the unclean food was "corrected" by Christ when he told us all that food ISN'T the issue, but the HEART is. The sin of homosexuality versus "eating unclean food". It is kind of like when Christ says a "Verily, verily"....I try to listen. If he states certain guidelines to follow, then I go with that. If, however, a specific sin was not something Christ spoke about, then I know he doesn't change and sin is still sin.

I'm just trying to let you know where I am coming from with my thinking. I've posted my feelings on homosexuality here in the forums, so I won't go into it here, but my general feelings are that homsexuality is a SIN, as ALL sin is sin. It isn't any different than any other sin in my mind. One for all, all for one...comes to my mind.  However, it isn't a sin to eat food that nourishes ones body. From the begining of creation man had preference and control over all the beasts of the field and sea (us being the biggest beast on the block), so taking the whole scripture in helps me work it out in my thinking.

Lol, I don't know if I make sense to anyone else, but all that is clear in my mind....haha, just not articulated very well in typing it out. Sorry for that..

God bless

[eutychus]

what foods to eat are common sense

i love shrimp, i eat it bout 3 time a year or so, sometimes more.

i like to have blts every now and then.


heres the rub.

DONT SERVE  MEAT TO A VEGETARIAN.

LOVE IS THE KEY.

check this out!


Barnabas 10:9 Concerning meats then Moses received three decrees to this effect and uttered them in a spiritual sense; but they accepted them according to the lust of the flesh, as though they referred to eating




link to smilies for scaryfeet
http://bestsmileys.com/pageindex.htm

[eutychus]

The rest of the laws are manmade, added laws that basically let the Jews "do their thing". Man kept adding, but never was satisfied with what our Father said were the "rules" of the game.

Food does not defile a man, and homosexuality was a named offense and an abominable sin, so it leads me to believe that since Christ Is, was, and will be, that homosexuality is still an abomination to our Lord, because he never stated otherwise. If he law brings us to Christ, then we must have already at least seen that homosexuality is stated to be a sin under the law.

I guess, in my mind, I can seperate the 2 simply because the unclean food was "corrected" by Christ when he told us all that food ISN'T the issue, but the HEART is. The sin of homosexuality versus "eating unclean food". It is kind of like when Christ says a "Verily, verily"....I try to listen. If he states certain guidelines to follow, then I go with that. If, however, a specific sin was not something Christ spoke about, then I know he doesn't change and sin is still sin.

I'm just trying to let you know where I am coming from with my thinking. I've posted my feelings on homosexuality here in the forums, so I won't go into it here, but my general feelings are that homsexuality is a SIN, as ALL sin is sin. It isn't any different than any other sin in my mind. One for all, all for one...comes to my mind.  However, it isn't a sin to eat food that nourishes ones body. From the begining of creation man had preference and control over all the beasts of the field and sea (us being the biggest beast on the block), so taking the whole scripture in helps me work it out in my thinking.

Lol, I don't know if I make sense to anyone else, but all that is clear in my mind....haha, just not articulated very well in typing it out. Sorry for that..

God bless

hey steve greetings,

what do you think of this?

1Cr 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.


whats your spiritual take?

peace brother
chuckt

[rocky]

For me,

As Christ's one's, we still have a command to live by.  It is a command written on our heart, a change in heart, , LOVE.  This new heart dictates everything we do.  It flows from in to out.  All actions flowing from us are as a result of, not in order to obtain.    

Love makes one crazy, love makes people do crazy stuff, it'a an internal desire.  Love is our internal code written on our hearts.    

1Jo 3:23  And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as he gave us commandment.

1Jo 2:15  Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

1Jo 2:16  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the vain glory of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

1Jo 2:17  And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

1Jo 3:7  My little children, let no man lead you astray: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous:

1Jo 3:8  he that doeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. To this end was the Son of God manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


For me, one can follow every 10 commandment perfectly and still sin by doing that, and eat only certain foods and still sin by doing that, if their heart is not Christ.  

But one can not love others with true Christ love and sin.  If we are loving others, we are not sinning.  This is only possible from a heart change.    

1Jo 3:9  Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.

1Jo 3:11  For this is the message which ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another:

1Jo 3:14  We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not abideth in death.


But we all sin (don't love)  at times, our new heart sees it, and tells us of it,  and praise God we know that

1Jo 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.  

And praise God we know that sin is not our true heart/nature, that it is the flesh sinning not our heart.  

Rom 7:18  For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not.

Rom 7:19  For the good which I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I practise.

Rom 7:20  But if what I would not, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me.

Rom 7:23  but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind (the mind of Christ), and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.


Because of love in our heart, our new nature, we will have a desire to confess the sin in our members/flesh


For me, it is all summed up in Love.

[Harryfeat]

Excellent post Rocky.  It really resonated with me.

I wonder what our thinking would be like if we grew up with a "bible" called the doctrine of Christ and his teachings. A book that had only what it believed that Christ said in it.

Clearly Christ and his apostles were raised as Jews.  Some if not all of the apostles were very famiiliar with scripture including but not limited to that which became what we call the old testament.

When you read what the apostles wrote, you can see the direct correlation with the old testament details that they grew up with.  Where else would they even come up with the word  like "abominable" :lol:

As far as the additional 603 laws, unlike his apostles, Christ did not  pick and choose and list out specific sins.  His message was one of love of the Father and our neighbors.  If we love the things of this world we miss the mark.

Immorality both sexual and otherwise.  is a subject all its own.  It changes based on what society you are in.  What one believes is sinful another does not necessarily believe. The most relevant operative message from Christ  is dont  feed meat to a vegetarian.

I was brought up to believe that adultery,  homosexuality, fornication, masturbation, etc.  was a mortal sin. I was also told that I would go to hell for those and various and sundry other things too numerous to mention.  

I don't believe in hell now and as I am going through my individual search for truth, I discarded quite a lot of baggage that doesn't fit the doctrine of Christ.  

To answer your question, Euty, my take on the spiritual meaning of fornication is basically any overindulgence of one's own body, be it sexual gratification,  drugs, food, or anything else that leads us closer to love of the things of this world over our love of  the Father.

It my opinion  that Christ purposely usually steered away from talking about individual sins and instead focused on telling us that if we get too caught up in things of this world, we subordinate our love the Father, which is not in keeping with Christ's doctrine of love.


feat
edited to clarify I was talking about the 603 laws in addition to the ten commandments.

ps thnks euty

[love_magnified]

Since you state...... "They are no different from eachother. They all mean JESUS. I know you have heard that before, but understanding that answers all your questions."


........does that mean that we are sinning if we eat pork and shellfish.  Do we have to abide in spirit to the other 603 commandments?

This is my source of confusion also.  I enjoy eating shellfish and never gave it a second thought as being sinful.

The apostles never say we need to abide by 603 commandments. We are not sinning if we eat pork and shellfish. There is a component to the Law which represented Christ, such as a Lamb being killed for sin. That NEVER justified a man. Killing a lamb never did anything to justify anyone. There was also nothing inherently wrong with eating pork or shellfish. You and I eat it and we don't pass out and die, right? That is because, like the killed lambs, the food also had representation: separation of the elect. Peter understood that when he had the vision of the sheet cleansing the Gentiles. The food laws represented separation of the elect. The Gentiles have been cleansed and called out.

The 10 commandments and the other moral commandments are also types and shadows. The 10 commandments in particular are a a type and shadow because it is God's righteousness in his Son written on stone, in the flesh, so that flesh can obey and of course fail. NOW, we do not even need those anymore. If a man has the Son within him, he need not even read the Law, for Christ is both willing and doing good through him. Avoiding sin and loving your brother will be instinct.

[Harryfeat]

Since you state...... "They are no different from eachother. They all mean JESUS. I know you have heard that before, but understanding that answers all your questions."


........does that mean that we are sinning if we eat pork and shellfish.  Do we have to abide in spirit to the other 603 commandments?

This is my source of confusion also.  I enjoy eating shellfish and never gave it a second thought as being sinful.

The apostles never say we need to abide by 603 commandments. We are not sinning if we eat pork and shellfish. There is a component to the Law which represented Christ, such as a Lamb being killed for sin. That NEVER justified a man. Killing a lamb never did anything to justify anyone. There was also nothing inherently wrong with eating pork or shellfish. You and I eat it and we don't pass out and die, right? That is because, like the killed lambs, the food also had representation: separation of the elect. Peter understood that when he had the vision of the sheet cleansing the Gentiles. The food laws represented separation of the elect. The Gentiles have been cleansed and called out.

The 10 commandments and the other moral commandments are also types and shadows. The 10 commandments in particular are a a type and shadow because it is God's righteousness in his Son written on stone, in the flesh, so that flesh can obey and of course fail. NOW, we do not even need those anymore. If a man has the Son within him, he need not even read the Law, for Christ is both willing and doing good through him. Avoiding sin and loving your brother will be instinct.

Sorry, I totally misunderstood your comment.  The question you were responding to what I thought was the 603 vs the ten and I took your response to be saying the 603 were the same as the ten. Evidently you were saying something else.

feat

[chrissiela]

Unlike his apostles, Christ did not  pick and choose and list out specific sins.  His message was one of love of the Father and our neighbors.  If we love the things of this world we miss the mark.

Here is an instance where Christ did:

Luk 18:18  And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

Luk 18:19  

And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

Luk 18:20  Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.

Luk 18:21  And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.[/list:u]

The thing is, though, that the law was still in effect until Christ nailed it to the cross and established the New Covenenant - sealing it with His blood.

Col 2:14  

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, NAILING IT TO HIS CROSS;[/list:u]

The ONE thing that this man in the above verses, who was 'keeping the law', lacked was CHRIST.

Keeping all those laws written in stone never saved ANYBODY. They were a ministration of DEATH....  the strength of sin is the law and by the law came the knowledge of sin.

But the knowledge of God (LOVE) comes through Christ.

Chrissie

[Origen II]

Some here need to read Leviticus :p

Such things NOT to do in the book of Leviticus are eating certain meats, wearing certain types of material, cutting your hair certain ways, etc.

It's just odd that these same laws are right next to laws that are apparent sins (like homosexuality) and aren't even seperated.

[Harryfeat]

Thanks Chrissie,

That was great.  I had meant to speak only about the the 603 other laws but neglected to qualify my statement.  My sentence should have began with, as far as the other 603 laws.  

I knew He talked about the ten commandments. My bad. :oops:

Thanks for pointing that out.  I will edit to make it clear for future readers.

feat

[love_magnified]

Some here need to read Leviticus :p

Such things NOT to do in the book of Leviticus are eating certain meats, wearing certain types of material, cutting your hair certain ways, etc.

It's just odd that these same laws are right next to laws that are apparent sins (like homosexuality) and aren't even seperated.

The Law of Moses was the physical representation of what Christ brought and what he brought is much better. Do you think Christ was put into us so that the 10 commandments would NOT be followed, and so that laws regarding homosexuality need not be heeded? Christ was put into us so that the reality of the Law would be realized. Again all the laws, including the moral laws (10 commandments) are shadows of what would come in Christ that we may have life more abundantly.

[eutychus]

search the word vail
see how many times it comes up in lev.

here ya go:
2Cr 3:13 And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Rom 10:4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.



2Cr 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2Cr 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2Cr 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

[chrissiela]

oops... sorry feat...  :oops:

Here are some more verse about the law:

Gal 3:11  But that

no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live BY FAITH.

Gal 3:12  And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Gal 3:13  Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Gal 3:14  That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit THROUGH FAITH.

Gal 3:15  Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

Gal 3:16  Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:17  And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Gal 3:18  For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Gal 3:19  Wherefore then serveth the law? It was ADDED because of transgressions, TILL the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Gal 3:20  Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Gal 3:21  Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 3:23  But BEFORE FAITH CAME, we were kept UNDER the law, SHUT UP UNTO FAITH which should AFTERWORDS be revealed.

Gal 3:24  Wherefore the law was our SCHOOLMASTER to bring us UNTO CHRIST, that we might be justified BY FAITH.

Gal 3:25  But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Gal 3:26  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.[/list:u]

There is OLD wine and the is NEW wine. There is an OLD garment and there is a NEW garment. There is an OLD covenant and there is a NEW covenant. There is the law of Moses (which was ADDED because of trangressions and to bring sin to light) and there is the ROYAL LAW, which is written in our hearts....

Mat 22:36  Master,

which is the great commandment in the law?

Mat 22:37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Mat 22:38  This is the first and great commandment.

Mat 22:39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat 22:40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.[/list:u]

Wonder how or if that ties to "cursed is everyone that hangeth on a tree" and Christ "nailing it to His cross"??

The only thing that I can find, so far, that says anything about there NOT being a NEW commandment, but it being and OLD commandment is this:

1Jo 2:7  Brethren,

I write NO new commandment unto you, BUT AN OLD commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.[/list:u]

However, as I see it, Moses is not and was not "the beginning". The laws of Moses were ADDED because of TRANSGRESSIONS. Apart from the law there is NO SIN.... but DEATH still reigned even before the law of Moses was 'added'.

Moses is not the BEGINNING. CHRIST IS.

Rev 22:13  

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.[/list:u]

It is the ROYAL LAW (the Law of God and of LOVE) that we have had "from the beginning" and that we should be following.... not the law of Moses, which was 'added'.

Jam 2:8  

If ye fulfil THE ROYAL LAW according to the scripture, Thou shalt LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF, ye do well:[/list:u]

That's my 2 (more) cents... plus some (more)...  :roll:

Chrissie  :wink:

[chrissiela]

Joh 3:16  For

God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

1Jo 4:19  We love him, because he first loved us.[/list:u]

There is the Royal Law... that we have had "from the beginning".  [-o<

Blessings,
Chrissie

[bobf]

Okay...I understand.

But still, if we are no longer to obey the Law of the flesh, why do we stop eating certain foods and viewing special Holy Days, but we still keep other parts of the physical law like homosexuality?

I'm just saying that I can't find anywhere where the ENTIRE Law is destroyed...nor can I find anywhere where the Food Laws are seperate from the sex Laws.

We are not bound to ANYTHING in law of Moses.  The reason homosexuality is wrong (or polygamy or fornication) is because God created male & female for each other and the two shall become one flesh.

The law of Moses was WATERED DOWN because of the unrighteousness of its audience:  

Mark 10:3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?  4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. 5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. 7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. 9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

If a righteous person goes ahead and obeys this law of Moses and gives his wife a bill of divorcement then he will be committing adultery.  So the law of Moses is substandard.  That's why Jesus gave different commandments.

This passage shows that the Ten Commandments are done away for those in Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:  8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.  11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.  12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished.