Sin and Guilt

[Deborah-Leigh]

Ray shares with us that God started working on him in the following way.

But God was working with me.  I didn't know it.  I just thought I'm drifting through life.  But God was working with me, for me, sometimes against me (which was also for me).  I finally did come to the place where I started looking at this whole thing afresh, that this is God doing it, and I'm thinking about this repentance business again.  What good does it do to repent, if you can't stop doing the things you repented of?  I mean, that's just hypocrisy isn't it?  You repent of all these sins and you keep doing them.  So... but I felt a guilt, there was a guilt in doing this or that, thinking this and thinking that, and the guilt would start to drive me away from it.  I couldn't handle the guilt.  I just didn't want to be guilty about this stuff so I would stop doing it.  Because I just wanted to get away from the guilty mind.  And so some things went by the wayside that way; that was the way it worked.  You know, just out of sheer guilt I didn't want to do them anymore.  And I didn't do them anymore, I quit this and that and so on...  and I guess God was turning me towards Him.  I was not learning anything new; there were no new revelations.  Just something was happening in my life.  http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html

God started turning me towards Him when He showed me that escape from guilt was not going to be through the Catholic Confessional. After God showed me that I could not GET AWAY, I rapidly decended from guilt to futility, despair and hopelessness that took me into depression.

Looking back, I can laugh now because my final submission to the Catholic Church ended when in the Confessional I confessed that I could not stop sinning and that I was very sorry. The Priest told me he could not forgive me for that.   

Is God showing you anything regarding your life and experience with sin and guilt?

Arc

[Amrhrasach]

Is God showing you anything regarding your life and experience with sin and guilt?

Arc

Hi Arc.  Answer: yes.

The most difficult thing for me to really grasp since being introduced to BT has been to understand that we are NOT our own commander in life.  I have read and re-read, and re-read, and listened to the myth of free-will repeatedly.  Only now is some of it sinking in, or synching in, and making a convincing argument that God is in charge.  This parlays over to the guilt area.  Reviewing life's events, particularly rather disastrous meaningful ones, I'm only now pulling away from the routine and daily beating appointments of myself and realizing God has placed some of these circumstances, if not all, in the path for a greater purpose.  But it's been a difficult assessment and learning curve.   As Ray has so expressly put in several papers, simply, when God is ready for us to move forward in the spiritual walk only then will it happen, be it to stop a routine particular sin, or removal of guilt, or a clearer understanding of his ways.   As Ray also says, paraphrased, sometimes the sin causes us to get sick and tired of the sin.  There are more than a few areas where I'm ready to be sick and tired of the sin.

Gary

[Phil3:10]

Arcturus,
Yes! My prayer life is not at all what I would have it to be. I drift to easily and my focus is not what it should be. It is not very often that I can pray effectively but I do still sense that GOD is leading my life and I am not forcing myself in prayer.  I like what you said about  sinning and I have become more acceptable of my proclivity to sin in spite of my not wanting to sin.
As Gary said, I realize that I am not my own Commander in my life and am trying to rely on HIM who is all. Guilt and sin in my life does make for a lack of personal satisfaction in my walk with our LORD. However, I do feel HE has me where HE wants me right now. I am just anxious for HIM to move me to an higher level.
As Ray said sometimes guilt and our sin does lead us to that higher level. I try to make this my constant prayer.
In HIM,
Phil3:10

[Robin]

God has always known me better than I know myself. He sees my filthy rags and still never leaves me. He doesn't let me get away even when I have so much shame I can't raise my head. He just continues to love and continues to drag me. It is his love and his forgiveness that allowed me to move past guilt. When I really understood that I am his work I was finally able to rest and stop beating myself to death.

Romans 8
37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Gary and Phil3:10

Is it not wonderful to see how God uniquely is changing us in a diverse and different way according to our individuality?

Just look at what is coming through for you Gary. The Myth of free will in reference to Guilt and you Phil3 your prayer life!

MG that is so great that God has caused you stop condemning yourself.

Arc

[dogcombat]

Hi Arc,

I related a similar situation in this thread a while back


http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8893.0.html


Ches

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Ches

What you observed in your post in that thread is so true and very well supported by the Teachings we have from Ray expounding the God is Sovereign.

Ches

Hey Gang,

Right now, things are VERY tight financially for me right now.  However, I feel led to write this question to all of you (especially you newbies), in light of Joe's thread about Jonah's Gourd.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8707.0.html

Have you had a JONAH MOMENT latley?    Give this some thought.

Doesn't it appear that YOU are at a pont where nothing seems to go your way?  As I think about the Gospel account of Jonah more and more, I'm starting to see (a bit clearer I might add) what that account means SPIRTUALLY for all of us.  Remember that God called Jonah to preach to a corrupt Ninevah, and Jonah wanted no part of that.  He tried to run away from his calling, but God had EVERYTHING under control.  Preparing the Great Fish to swallow Jonah when he jump into the raging sea. 

Someone I know was recently arrested back in September.  I felt that the Lord had called me to write this person a letter informing him that God was in control of his situation.  I didn't write the letter when the words were given to me.  And I thought about it more when a project I was to be doing last month fell through.  I did eventually write the letter, and things are STILL tight as my prospect seem to be dim.  However, I now see that being in the belly of the fish, SYMBOLIZES a point of BROKENESS, and SURRENDER to what God had called me to do.  He has me right where He wants me, and has the FINAL SAY on what happens from here. 

In other words, what I wanted to do wasn't what He wanted me to do.  Since EVERYTHING is on His APPOINTED time schedule.  And what comes in His time WILL come.  Not one milli-second sooner, not one nano-second later.  The Lord knew Jonah would do EXACTLY what he did.  And was merciful, to have brought Jonah to be able to fufill what he called to do.  Not that it was easy or that Jonah necessarily liked it.  But God's ways are NOT our ways, and until HE has brought to that point of surrender to His will we will feel like we're in the belly of a fish.  Dark, dank, dreary, hopeless wishing (like Jonah) we were dead rather than stuck. 

As you ponder this, think of a paper, email reply, or audio from Ray that has helped you understand your JONAH MOMENT. 

Ches

As Ray says quote : If youcannot identify yourself, personally, with all the stories and accounts in the Old Testament, then you have not even begun to overcome all the carnality that you are. http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm
Arc

[judith collier]

Thanks Arcturus for starting this thread. Sometimes I feel like such a failure(and I am). And guilt, gosh!!!I need to accept my nasty little self and remember I am nothing and all good is of God. It sure is easy to pick up that perfection thingy and evaluating ourselves like we could actually become better without the Lord. Pride, I guess. Judy

[Mando]

The thing about me falling into "the sin that so easily besets me" is that I fight so hard "NOT" to fall, but end up falling  anyways. I feel like I'm blaspheming sometimes, I feel shame and I feel like beating myself up! I feel that I'm not worthy of even reading the bible, but then I remember so many scriptures telling me it's His faithfulness that keeps me in His love. I pray the LORD for EZK.36:26-27
in my life. Thank God that He will never leave me nor forsake me. One thing this does to me is that it grows a compassion for other sinners. I learn not to judge. I praise Him for that.
                                                                         In His Love
                                                                                  Mando

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Judy

I agree it hurts. It really really hurts.

Don't you find also that when God is dealing with you and His Consuming Fire hits, that there is only the consuming fire and every thing else just is not there anymore. The good memories fade, the positive thinking evaporates, the carnal teachings of how to stay strong disappear and all there is, is pain. Then God lets up a bit but not too much and He squeezes out some real attitude towards Him that makes me ask Him things I could never dream of asking Him in my comfort zones of cozy unchallenged delights.

Those questions then are the real questions born of suffering and not lazy academic interst in God but real live suffering questions that only God can answer.


Hi Mando

God has once caused me to experience that my understanding is not my salvation. God showed me He can take that away and everything I know and even everything I think I know He can remove from me.   

That Scripture is EXCELLENT. You can count on Him to perform it!

Arc

[Amrhrasach]

Hi Judy

I agree it hurts. It really really hurts.

Don't you find also that when God is dealing with you and His Consuming Fire hits, that there is only the consuming fire and every thing else just is not there anymore. The good memories fade, the positive thinking evaporates, the carnal teachings of how to stay strong disappear and all there is, is pain. Then God lets up a bit but not too much and He squeezes out some real attitude towards Him that makes me ask Him things I could never dream of asking Him in my comfort zones of cozy unchallenged delights.

Those questions then are the real questions born of suffering and not lazy academic interst in God but real live suffering questions that only God can answer.

Arc

A few times in early life God had me to my knees as a result of a sheer sense of loss of direction.   The pain of those times were tremendous.  On my knees I would promise better, he provided me help, and as time went on I would realize I had lied to him.  I lost my way again and was too busy with "life" to remember those promises to God.  If I left my first love it was then, I think, but I still wonder if I've lost my first love. 

Of late their have been more than a few more occasions where God has had me to the knees, in tears, a total loss of answers to life and its aggravations.  And everything hurts.  No part of the body and mind is untouched by the pain and it's only then when I'm on my knees, with tears, a heart full of agony that I hear him the clearest and feel his presence more than any other time.  It reminds me that too much time is spent being concerned with things of life that aren't important at all.

That's what your statements reminded me of Arc.  How can "good" be mixed with "pain"?

Gary

[Deborah-Leigh]

How can "good" be mixed with "pain"?

One of the fruits of His Spirit is longsuffering.

In Ray's last Conference he expounds on this.

We too have to learn to be longsuffering. We have to learn to overcome. Has Christ overcome His suffering. I believe He has. Does this mean that the fruit of His Spirit of longsuffering is no longer part of Him. No.

The nature of Christ is Patience and Mercy and Love that endures. We are being transformed into His image by His Spirit and this is how good is mixed with pain as we endure the trials of our own tribulations through His Spirit. I can do all things Paul wrote.  through Christ.

Arc

[judith collier]

Arcturus, you make my head spin. Your intellect is far above mine as is your knowledge of scripture. I guess that is why I like to read what you say. And I listen! That SQUEEZING OUT FROM GOD is almost unbearable. I FEEL LIKE MY BRAINS ARE SCRAMBLED, MY FRUSTRATION IS PEEKED, MY ESTEEM IS SHOT DOWN, MY ANSWERS ARE NOTHING AND I FEEL LIKE I AM A CHILD AND THE STUPIDIST ONE AT THAT AND I KNOW I HAVE TO SURRENDER OR I WILL DIE. I WILL GO INTO THAT ABYSS THAT IS SO DARK AND DEEP AND THIS TIME I WILL NOT GET BACK. I HAVE TO SURRENDER, ON THE VERGE OF BEING TOTALLY DEFEATED. IS THIS BEAST SO STRONG THAT IT CAN KILL ME? LITERALLY? judy

[EKnight]

Arcturus, you make my head spin. Your intellect is far above mine as is your knowledge of scripture. I guess that is why I like to read what you say. And I listen! That SQUEEZING OUT FROM GOD is almost unbearable. I FEEL LIKE MY BRAINS ARE SCRAMBLED, MY FRUSTRATION IS PEEKED, MY ESTEEM IS SHOT DOWN, MY ANSWERS ARE NOTHING AND I FEEL LIKE I AM A CHILD AND THE STUPIDIST ONE AT THAT AND I KNOW I HAVE TO SURRENDER OR I WILL DIE. I WILL GO INTO THAT ABYSS THAT IS SO DARK AND DEEP AND THIS TIME I WILL NOT GET BACK. I HAVE TO SURRENDER, ON THE VERGE OF BEING TOTALLY DEFEATED. IS THIS BEAST SO STRONG THAT IT CAN KILL ME? LITERALLY? judy

Ditto Judy.

Don't you find also that when God is dealing with you and His Consuming Fire hits, that there is only the consuming fire and every thing else just is not there anymore. The good memories fade, the positive thinking evaporates, the carnal teachings of how to stay strong disappear and all there is, is pain. Then God lets up a bit but not too much and He squeezes out some real attitude towards Him that makes me ask Him things I could never dream of asking Him in my comfort zones of cozy unchallenged delights.

Arc, this is profoundly true.  You have a way with words.

A few times in early life God had me to my knees as a result of a sheer sense of loss of direction.   The pain of those times were tremendous.  On my knees I would promise better, he provided me help, and as time went on I would realize I had lied to him.  I lost my way again and was too busy with "life" to remember those promises to God.  If I left my first love it was then, I think, but I still wonder if I've lost my first love. 

Gary, you didn't lie, you were honest with your feelings at that moment and you and I both know that God already knew you would forget your promise. However, God's mercy is ever lasting.

Eileen

[Amrhrasach]

However, God's mercy is ever lasting.

Eileen

Mercy.  A small 5 letter word but has so much power in love.   Like gold that a small amount of it can be stretched and can cover so much.  Thank you Eileen.

Gary

[judith collier]

Horseman, wasn't that the sweetest word you ever heard? mercy! It was to me and thanks Eileen. I think that young picture of Eileen helped me too. I used to be sweet, at first, years ago but don't see much of it anymore in me. I love younger people, well, actually I love all ages but am especially drawn to younger or older or smarter or anything that isn't somewhat like me. My peers sometimes are about as tough on me as I am on them. That isn't especially the case here though. I FEEL like an old battered warrior and I am . I guess sometimes I think God doesn't love old warriors as much as he does the young. Horseman, at first when we are in love we have such sweet passion and we breathe it like life. As we get older it turns to committment and a verb and doesn't FEEL like we love as strongly as when we first met our TRUE LOVE. But I don't think we love God any less just differently. "Put me in remembrance of MY word". So I say, remember lord when I first loved you, how I would have rather died than offend you, how You were my everything, my joy, my desire, my Alpha and Omega, my heart of hearts. Then I say, You called me, You loved me, You said you would never leave me. judy

[Marlene]

Hello, After, coming in here I have found out that even Babylon was his plan for me. I had to go through the sin and the failure to overcome. Trying on my own power and never having victory. Also, I lacked trust in him. I failed him really bad right before coming in here. I had a sin in my life that I thought was impossible for him to forgive me for. But, I had another sin that was way worse then the one I thought he could not forgive me for. How could I ever trust him and not see his purpose and plan for me. How, most of all could I ever overcome my trying to do it myself when I did not see him as all loving. Through, that one sin I hated the most in my life, he made me wish I was dead to get away from my memories and yet he changed it to my hate of Hell.

This brought me into Rays website. I was so thirsty for GOD'S  water that I read Rays articles for two days. I really did not sleep too much. Then, it all  began to hit me. My Lord Loves Me he loves the Whole World. He is the Saviour of the World. He will have his way and I have nothing to offer. I was let out of the Hell of my mind. I worshiped him like I have never in my life. I just keep my focus on this. The devil has tried to steal it away. But, God is teaching me to know the difference between Him and the devil. He has used his word just as he said, to help me know whose voice it is. God helps me to overcome those thoughts. I am just learning this. This is the stage I am at. I am learning to overcome.

God has put into my mind Matthew Chapter 4 as an example to equip me of the wiles of the devil. I want to learn the difference between my Fathers voice and my own or the devils.  If it is my own God presents it to me as sin. If, it is the devil it creates fear . The devil was always coming to Jesus to try and get him to sin. But, Jesus knew his fathers will. He knew him inside and out. That is a hard place to get. You have to have the Fathers Spirit for that. The devil h as spent years with us showing us things of the world. Wanting,us not to forgive others. Wanting, greed , fame, fortune what ever. We are our own worst enemy. It dies because when the Father consumes it with his fire we will be perfected. It is a process. Now, I find it helps me to remember, I am not perfect and my Father is. Its not about me. I have nothing to give. But, My God is able to deliver me when and how he wants. Jesus knew his Father.

Judy, that beast has to die. Killing that beast is what God does to us. It is a process and not easy. It likes to claim its throne. We have to overcome ourself. That Beast is a big thing. But, our God is Greater.

Even, after you know that God is the Savior of the World the devil likes to try and make you fall. He likes you to think God can't change you. Thats, how God teaches us trust in him. He brings us to where we cannot trust ourself for anything.  We will be able to know if the beast is talking or if the spirit is of the devil. It is a life time of overcoming. The devil was after Jesus at every turn in Matt. Chapter 4 But, because Jesus knew the difference between his Fathers voice and the devil he was able to over come. So, we have to overcome till the end like Jesus. The great thing to remember it is not our ability but the Fathers. We will have victory if it is the Fathers will. That, is why we should get one on one with God. So, we can learn to know which voice is talking to us. The Beast , the devil .  Something other then the Spirit of God.

I have been thinking alot about Matt. Chapter 4  alot. Also, remember while the disciplies slept God turned to his Father in prayer. This helped him to overcome. You have to spend time alone with him. In one post in here we have to put on the full armour. George, pointed that out to me. If, one part is missing we will be found sleeping. That armour is all one, and without one part we might be caught sleeping.

I just wanted to let you know , that now I see my entire life as all a process just like Ray talks of. I see his patience, longsuffering and that Good News Gospel of Love, which has won me over. His Love set me free. It will be same for all humanity when he presents it to them. I have no idea what I will do. Will, I overcome till the end. Will he choose me. No, idea, but I do believe he is able to accomplish all his will. He is the Saviour of the World.

Now, I know what they mean pray without ceasing cause it really all depends on him. Best prayer we could ever pray. Lord, keep me no matter what you have to do. I said, that many years ago to God. I told my last pastor that several years ago. He said, "Well that was a bold stament.Now, I know that the Lord had me to say that. He has done some pretty powerful things in my life and has chastened me real good before coming in here.  Well, it was each time as severe as it should have been. He corrects in the way that changes us. He will be faithful to continue to do it. I just pray in fear and trembling. Cause that Beast loves to arise. When we learn what the Spirit of God consist of. We will know what the Spirit is and Gods Spirit will guide us . God is creating us in his Image. It is all one process. Hard but not impossible for our God who wills ALL MEN BE SAVED. I know , the Lord has opened my eyes to that Chapter 4 in Matt. I had read it many years. But, never thought about it with open eyes and ears. That, is a powerful Chapter indeed.


In His Love,
Marlene

[judith collier]

Marlene, I will go read it. I am ready for deliverance . This is one tough battle. I am actually physically weakened at times. I do need to know the different voices. Well, not (voices, voices) but in the spiritual state. Usually I do pretty well but not too good lately. And it ISN"T about me. Judy

[jg]

This topic is exactly what is going on with me.  At times I feel alone, without God.  All the trouble keeps coming and coming and sometimes it's just so overwhelming that I actually find myself angry at God.  (Hope I didnt shock you there, just telling the truth) 

I find myself saying things like, "Where is God in all this?"  "Where is the end of it all?" 

After my tyrade, I come groveling back to God asking forgiveness for being so selfish and feel so ashamed.

It just never seems to end. I'm not talking about trivial problems here either.  A family member doing drugs, another who is facing 10 to 40 years in prison.  I just get so tired of trouble if you know what I mean. I'm so tired of dealing with it. I never know what might happen from moment to moment. 

I know I've got to learn to leave it all up to God to take care of it all but as of this moment in my walk I'm not there yet.  I get so angry, I see no love in my heart for either of them at times, yet on the other hand when it counts the most, I feel such compassion for their situations.....what a rollercoaster ride! 

I find myself sinning when I feel that anger, saying things I'm ashamed of.  The anger itself is sin.  I know I'm to put away anger, but I can't "just do it." 

Slowly, ever sooooooooo slowly, I'm learing that I can't do this on my own at all..
The only thing I can hang onto is knowing He will NEVER leave me nor forsake me.

I pray for my wife, as this is all harder on her than it is on me,,I'm just the step-dad. Yet the crud keeps happening. She gets drug through the mud over and over again until her nerves are totally shot. And I end up hating what they do to her.

So, yeah, God is dealing with me.  I just hope I learn it soon,,,,real soon...

[Deborah-Leigh]

It is difficult to look into our souls to see if we have begun changing in ways that would be pleasing to God. It is easier to develop skills in quoting Scriptures and BT.

Only God can make us change and only He can come to us to initiate such changes as looking inwards not outwards to evaluate our real condition spiritually.

I had to first THINK that I  KNEW the Scriptures before God began to show me that I actually knew nothing. That is the beginning of change as God shows us our weakness and wretched nakedness not to insult us but to CHANGE us.

Sharing my understanding with back up from BT and Scriputes has been a very important exercise for me. The exercise in Spiritual discernment has nurtured me and helped wean me off Babylonian seductive false teachings. It has been a valuable gift from God that I believe has, is and will continue to be an important preparation process for Change.

We can do nothing without Him. At first He causes us to think we have the power to obey. He causes us to experience the futility of knowing right from wrong and being unfit, incapable, unable and destitute of following Him. Regardless of our understanding of Him" we know nothing about Him until He begins to change us. Then, as happened to Ray, He starts to tell you One on one what the Truth is. Asking Him what the Truth is can never be sufficient if merely a curiosity or intellectual exchange. Like Pontius asked Him...What is Truth? Did he get the answer. No. Even His Apostles got no answers until they were Converted. Then the process of Change began.

There are two groups. Those who see Him more and more and those who are making merchandise of Him for self aggrandisement.
As Ray expounds, that God has two areas and eras of judgement.

I too am learning to appreciate HIS Word and His Message more. I can see that through Ray I may not have CHANGED as such but my DIRECTION HAS which is a most significant and life changing gift from God.

Thanks to each one of you for your comments. 

Arc