A Long Awaited Return

[bambam]

Hello, I am Beth.  I have returned after being gone for about a year, and it is so good to be back!  I have been wanting to share my story for a while and have not had the time or opportunity.  So here goes.  I would say it was about two years ago when my world came to a screeching halt.  But let me back up a bit.  At the time, my husband was not on the pastoral staff at church but our church had been planning on hiring him in the very near future.  He looked forward to it, and I was behind him 100% but was very concerned about our financial situation.  My husband was working a very good paying job and would be taking an obvious pay cut. 

With this in mind I move on to another section of the story.  A man and his wife had moved to wyoming for, I think seven years or something like that.  They came to our church before they went out there, and then they moved back here and began attending our church again.  During this time, my life was a bit a mess.  I was suffering from depression, struggling with raising my for kids, and finding no joy in reading my Bible.  I actually sat in my bed one night(I think I was crazy, now that I look back) thinking, I have learned it all.  A thirty year old women who had been in church her whole life, learned most every Bible story there is to learn, sat in church Sunday after Sunday-Wednesday after Wednesday, how could I not know it all by now.  What else could I learn?  Arrogant, I know.  But that's where I found myself. 

Enter the man and his wife.   It came to my attention from going to his blog, that he did not agree with something our pastor taught, and I was intrigued.  Some how I think I found out from my husband that this man was a calvinist, and he believed that God chooses who goes to heaven, and the rest go to hell.  Well, I knew that couldn't be right.  I did not serve a God who never gave certain people a chance to come to Him.  I did not serve a God who selected certain people to be with Him forever, and then blew off the rest of humanity like they were nothing.  I did not believe my Bible taught that-where is the love of God in all of this. 

This man and I began emailing each other.  I asked him tons of questions and tried to refute his belief.  He would give me scripture, I would give him scripture.  In the end, it got me nowhere.  Then I thought-what if he is right??  I began researching.  I studied writings from men like Augustine and Spurgeon-who seems to be Calvinistic, yet he is one of the highly favored sources for preachers and teachers who are not Calvinistic.  I was confounded.  I knew both views could not be right.  So I started studying outside the box.  I went to websites of all different religions and even Atheists to get their point of view on the world.  They made good points about different things.  They asked honest questions about our so called God's love and how could he send a majority of people to hell.  It really got me thinking.  I fell to my knees weeping for humanity several times because I thought "This is NOT the God I want to serve!!"  I told Him that.  I begged Him to show me the truth.  I had had enough!!  I just prayed earnestly-"God, please tell me the truth.  I just want the truth!"   

As I continued to search the internet, I "stumbled" on to this sight called Bible-truths.  Hmmm.  I read, and thought that maybe this was way out in left field-just a bit-okay, alot!!  But, I kept coming back.  Why?  It was the first time since I started searching for answers to my confusion,  that it all made sense what this guy was saying.  It answered my questions about what chosen means, and what it all entailed.  It went further than that and taught that hell was a myth.  I had alot of trouble with this one.  But I read, and read and read and read. I printed evrything out and read it again.  I stayed up till 2am many nights studying.  It was crazy to feel so lost, but so found at the same time.  So relieved, but so confused.  Those were some dark times for me, but full of light.  My problem was with believing the truth.  That's where my battle was!! 

I tried to talk to my husband about what I was reading, but he lacked interest.  We would talk about stuff, but he would eventually tell me that I should talk to pastor, and ask him these things my hubby could not answer.  I did not feel comfortable doing that.  So I went on my merry way with all my questions knowing I would just have to rely on God to answer them-which is what I should be doing anyway. 

One day I had left a page open on my computer and My husband read it.  I do not remember if it was something I had written on the forum or not, but he did not like it.  That's when the turmoil started.  He told me he was going to talk to the pastor and I asked him not to.  So he did not but asked me not to come back here.  I tried not to, but I ended up writing a post about my struggles and about our church and pastor.  Again, not thinking, I left it on the computer and he found it.  He read it and his heart was broken.  He was sad and upset for some time about that.  He ended up showing it to the pastor because it was about him and the church being decieved.  Boy was I in the hot seat!!  The day he found it and showed it to the pastor, my husband called me-it was a Sunday.  He had asked me to come talk to pastor with him earlier and I refused.  Now, as much as I do not want to think he really meant it, I felt like he was giving me the ultimatum to come in and talk to pastor and his wife, or we were going to have some marital issues.  I felt like a knife was being stabbed in my heart.  But I went, because I did not want to lose my family. 

My heart thumped hard that day.  Going to see pastor with my hubby, was a very nervewracking thing.  But we discussed the paper I had written, and the stuff I had been reading-which he really probably read very little of.  I tried to raise some questions, but was so nervous, I had much difficulty, and his response a few times was, well there are things we will not understand here.  I do not think he had a solid answer for me on some of the issues I raised.  He gave me a book written by James Kennedy on the fundamentals of the doctrines of the faith and asked me to read it-I said I would.  And he told me that I should have realized the moment I went to Bible-truths that it was false teaching, and that Ray was a false teacher. I was asked not to go back to the sight again.  My heart sunk.

I walked out of that office, feeling so defeated and alone, yet knowing I did not want to lose my husband or my family.  My husband and the pastor were so concerned about my beliefs because my husband was going to be going on full time the next year.  They had to know I would not cause any trouble with that, before he went on full time.  That was so hard for me.  I was not treated badly, but I felt so stupid.  I could not believe any differently than my husband, and I could not teach Sunday School etc. etc.  I understand that.  It makes sense that I should not be in a leadership position in a church if I do not believe what the church teaches-I get it.  It didn't make me feel any better.  I felt like scum for so long.  I felt very uncomfortable around the pastor, and his wife never seemed to treat me the same since.   My heart was broken.

I spent some time hating going to church-dreading seeing the pastor.  The subject was completely dropped, we got rid of the internet, and that was that.  We have not really talked about it since.  I have just continued reading my Bible and studying the Greek.  My wounded relationship with my hubby began to heal.  He went on full time this past spring and I had asked for the internet back numerous times because of its great usefulness in keeping in touch with people and in homeschooling.           

So, here I am.  What do I do now?  I wait.  I have to tell my husband where my heart lies!!  But when I do.  My life will probably never be the same.  I do not know how to tell him but I am praying that God just brings the right time and place and opens my mouth.  He will-He always does!!!!  I know that my hubby will probably go to pastor and tell him-things will not be easy for me I suspect.  I ask for prayer.  I need strength!!  I need wisdom, and determination.  I need courage!  Thanks for your encouragement, and your prayers.  I am so glad to be back here!! 

In Christ's love,
Beth     

[aqrinc]

You have my Prayers sent already Beth. The Word Of GOD Is to be your Guide and Teacher and The Holy Spirit Works with your spirit to do what is right In GOD'S Sight.

george.

[Robin]

It is good to see you again Beth. You are in a very difficult situation, but I have no doubt that God will lead you.

I've often wondered about Peter's wife and what she must have gone through when Peter threw his nets down and jumped off his fishing boat to follow Jesus.

[Marky Mark]

Hello Beth

  The Truths of the Spirit are most certainly a hard road to follow,but the rewards are great,as you know.May our Father give you all the guidance in your life decisions.

God Bless.




John 15
20 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

John 16
2 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended. 2 They shall put you out of the synagogues:

2 Timothy 3
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

2 Cor.6
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Revelation 18
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.


Peace...Mark

[aqrinc]

Beth,

You may have seen this thread before, if not take a bit of time to read please. It is from 2007 and another guest was reading it, that is how i found and read it, very much there about your questions.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4055.msg31069.html#msg31069

george.

[judith collier]

Beth, this is a hard one. I read all the answers on that thread that was suggested and if it was me when I was young, well, I would still not know what to do. It is only after many years of growth and putting people and situations in their proper categories that I have peace. I do what I think is correct now, for me, between me and God, not me and my husband. It doesn't make for a great marriage but I highly value integrity. Sometimes , until you are more sure of yourself( I don't get that from your post) perhaps, just keep your mouth shut and wait on God to move. And don't give god a timetable. Just trust Him. Judy

[Kat]

Hi Beth,

I think you have held up remarkably in your situation.  When I left the church, I kept thinking I would be confronted, as I had been friends with the pastor and his wife, mainly because our girls were friends.  But I was just waiting (nerverously) for that confrontation that never came.  So I was never really in the position that you are in.

Anyway I hope you realize that the best defense as a good offence.  What I mean is if you present a few irrefutable Scriptural truths, how can he attack what you believe.  Here is a excerpt from the Bible study 'Foundational Truths' that I think might be of help to you.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6452.msg51862.html#msg51862 ---

GOD DOES NOT LIE! 

Let's go through just one major point here about God and His work.  Now I'm assuming that we accept the fact that there is a God.  But first you have to accept that there is a creation and there is a Creator of the creation.  I'm assuming that we all believe that there is a God of the creation. 

I'll ask the question here, does God lie?  I want to give you this verse in the Concordant in Titus, because it really is worded properly.

Titus 1:2   in expectation of life eonian, which God, Who does not lie, promises before times eonian, (CLV)

The King James says, "God, that cannot lie,"  But that is not what it means, that's not what it says.  It doesn't say in the Greek that He "cannot" lie, it says "does not."  It's a negative, can't - don't.  But it's not that He can't, but He doesn't.  God doesn't lie.

Num 23:19  God is not a man, that He should lie;

1 Sam 15:29  And also the Strength of Israel will not lie...

That is in a capital, it is talking about God.   This is a Truth!  You got to hang onto that.  Under no circumstances can you ever let go of that Truth, it's paramount.  If you believe that God lies, then you might as well throw your Bible away.  You might as well throw your religion away. 

This is paramount!
You say, 'well teach me something new Ray, teach me something I need to know.  Teach me something the whole church doesn't know or believe.'  I AM.  They DON'T believe this.  That's why I'm telling you, you must believe this. 
G o d   d o e s   n o t   l i e.


                              GOD'S WORD DOES NOT LIE!

John 17:17  Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy WORD is truth.

John 10:35  ...and the SCRIPTURE cannot be broken;

2 Tim 3:16  ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

So the Scripture are true.  They are true and they can't be broken and they are written through the inspiration of God, who does not lie.  Now have you got that point in your mind?  Don't ever lose that.  This is your salvation, when it comes to you understanding the Scriptures and/or teaching others to understand the Scriptures or exposing those who contradict themselves.

We can now apply this TRUTH to all Scriptures.  With just that Truth we can confound the mighty of this world and I'll show you how to do it.  This is not going to be a difficult study.  But it is going to be maybe one of the most profound studies I've ever given.
SEVEN [7] FOUNDATIONAL SCRIPTURES

Now I going to give you 7 Scriptures that talks about really important things and I have several that eludes to the salvation of the human race.  Because what is more important than that?  What's more important to a human being than to think that God, since He brought us into existence, we will always be in existence.  Even when we die He is going to bring us back.  If He brought us here in the first place, then He can bring us back.  This is not hard, not for God.

[1]  1 John 4:14  And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

I never forgot that Scripture.  First time I saw that I memorized it and I never forgot it.  I never had to look it up again, I knew where it was...1 John 4:14.  And also 1 John 4:8 "...for God is love."  Remember these.

[2]  1 Tim 2:4  God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

You're got to believe that.  Maybe you should cut these out and stick them in your Bible or something.

[3]  1 Tim 4:10  For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living GOD, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those that believe.

Phil 2:13  For it is GOD which works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Do you see free will in there any place?  Who is it that brings about what is your will and what you will do?  GOD!

[4]  2 Peter 3:9  The Lord is...NOT WILLING that ANY should perish (well how is He going to keep them from perishing?...), but that all should come to repentance.

Here is a negative thought - "not willing."  Now this is the will of God and this is important.  God's will is that no one should perish... no one, not Adolf Hitler, not Osama Bin Laden, no one.  But they all have to repent. 
You say, 'well they're already dead Ray.'  That's right, but they are coming back in judgment and they have to repent.  Why?  Because God does not want them to perish.

Now we are going to see what theologians do with these verses and what you can't ever do with these verse.  Because this is Truth, God does not will - He's not willing - He does not want - He has no such desire - He takes no pleasure in any perishing.  But He is going to have them all repent.
----------------------------------------------------------

But a good thing to remember is you can not explain the truth to the blind where they will understand.  It is not up to you to present great wit and clever remarks to answer their accusations, as Christ did not answer His accusers.

Mat 27:12  And while He was being accused by the chief priests and elders, He answered nothing.
v. 13  Then Pilate said to Him, "Do You not hear how many things they testify against You?"
v. But He answered him not one word, so that the governor marveled greatly.

My prayers are with you.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Phil3:10]

Beth,
My thoughts and prayers are with you and with the circumstances you find yourself currently in. My situation is exactly the reverse as it is my precious wife who believes, as does your husband, in the institutional, denominational, organized church system. My wife and I attended a 50th wedding anniversary for some close friends in my wife's church today and all I heard was how much they missed me and could not wait for me to come back. I have been out for nearly 3 years and there is no way that I ever intend to go back. However, the pain both my wife and I suffer is as real as yours.  My constant prayer is that my wife will come out of the Babylonian church system and that we can truly worship HIM that is ALL together.
I know that this is in GOD'S hands and that HIS will is all that matters as I sense you also feel the same way. Prayerfully, HIS will is for answered prayer for the both of us.
In HIM,
Phil3:10

[bambam]

Hello.  I just wanted to say thank you for that excerpt from Ray Kat!  I really needed that today.  An evangelist came to our church yesterday and he preached a very convicting sermon last night about all the things that we struggle with but that GOD is able to give us victory-if we let him.  He said something like-well you may say I just can't get victory over this or that, but you CAN.  It so hard because it sounds like he gives God all the credit but makes it sound like we have to make the choice to LET God give us the victory.  He talked about hell alot and the burning flames forever and forever.  Ugh.  It's so hard because he sounds so convincing, and then I start to feel so guilty for "wandering away".  The emotional battle is enormous.  This man quoted things like-with God all things are possible-and in mind I am thinking-"yeah, except saving all mankind, that's impossible for him."  And he said God was more powerful than Satan-except he forgot to mention that Satan is winning this battle for souls right now-because narrow is the way and few there be that find it.  How can we consider God as the victor if most of his created beings go to hell forever-how is that victory over sin and death?  I have even heard preachers say that people in hell will still sin and be vile creatures-but then where is the victory over sin?  Where in the Bible does it say that when God died on the cross and rose again he got victory over some sins and some deaths?  Does it not simply say-sin and death??  Oh death where is thy sting-oh grave where is thy victory.  Well according to christianity, death is stinging more people than it's not and the grave is winning over more people than it's  not.   Okay, I think I am blowing a little steam.  I just need strength.  I wish I had more time to come here and share in the discussions with others.  I so appreciate the encouragement-there is no one else for that right now, humanly speaking.  I truly believe that with God ALL things are possible-including the defeat of Satan and the salvation of all mankind. 

Full of gratitude for you all,
Beth   

[aqrinc]

Hi Beth,

If you continue by making sure every Scripture quote from any preacher has another Spiritual Witness in The Scriptures. Then you will have no problem in overcoming the heresies of this Religious system by The Blood Of The Lamb, and by The Word Of His Testimony.

1Pe 1: 17-21 (CLV)
17 And if you are invoking the Father, Who is judging impartially according to each one's work, you may behave, for the time of your sojourn, with fear,
18 being aware that not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, were you ransomed from your vain behavior, handed down by tradition from the fathers,
19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a flawless and unspotted lamb,
20 foreknown, indeed, before the disruption of the world, yet manifested in the last times because of you, who through Him are believing in God,
21 Who rouses Him from among the dead and is giving Him glory, so that your faith and expectation is to be in God."

Witness
Rev 12: 10-11 (CLV)
10 And I hear a loud voice in heaven saying, "Just now came the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brethren was cast out, who was accusing them before our God day and night."
11 And they conquer him through the blood of the Lambkin, and through the word of their testimony, and they love not their soul, until death."

george .

[bambam]

yes, you have, jacobs ladder!  Thank you! :

Beth

[Roy Martin]

Mathew 10:27 Whatever I tell you in the dark,speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the house tops.
Mathew 10:32  Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.

Mathew 10:34-39

Peace
Roy