My first discussion...

[bambam]

I brought all of what I have been learning to the table today with two of my closest friends.  We had a bible study-it was really neat, but very daunting.  I may have made them think, but they were totally trying to prove me wrong as I was them.  I am not into argueing about this stuff.  Well we were not arguing, but we were debating.  I get loud but not angry.  Anyways, my stomache is in knots, but I just felt I needed to tell them.  I wanted to tell somebody.   

I was shaken because there is so much that I do not have answers for.  Like the fact that there is no hell, and the judgement is not forever.  I have been studying the issues concerning all being saved.  That's were my basic focus has been for almost two years.  That's how long it has taken for me to be totally convinced of the truth!

But I realized today that I am not ready to give an answer to anyone because I cannot yet explain, using the scriptures, why there is no hell and that judgement is not forever.  The hardest thing to conquer for me today, was when the story of Lazarus and the rich man came up.  I simply said that I have not yet studied that.  I felt like a fool. 

It's hard because I don't want to tell people about Ray's site because I think most people would read the first few sentences and say he is off of his rocker.  In fact my friend did that very thing today when she went to the lazarus paper.  I told her there was no way we could discuss that in such a short time etc. 

I cannot read Ray's paper's.  I have read much of his stuff, but I really desire to learn these things from God.  I have been listening to Ray's audio's, because I do not have to have paper's lying around to do that.   

I am not sure why I am sharing this except that I just have this sick feeling in the pit of my stomache.  I really do not want to be led astray!!   I have only been praying and asking God for the truth-for the past two years I have asked for this. 

God brought me here-I am sure of it!!  But why the doubt. 

I am just not strong.  I thought today, that maybe God was showing me that I am just not ready to talk to people about this yet.  Because I have been so anxious about doing just that-especially with my husband. 

Has it been this hard for all of you?  I am sure it has.  Sometimes I feel so alone.   I have had more peace about the things Ray teaches than I do about anything I have learned all of my life!!  But talking to my two friends for a few hours has shaken me.  What does this mean??

I am thankful for you all.  To me it seems so much more awesome and wonderful to know that hell-as man has percieved it does not exist!  It would be a wonderful thing to learn that everyone is going to eventually be saved.  My friend said to me-if there is no hell, then why don't I just go and do whatever I want-why try to live this Christian life that is so hard to live.   

I struggled with that one.  I understand in my head, but putting my thoughts into words is extremely hard when it comes to this. 

I wish I could do what Jesus did when he opened up people's understanding.  But I cannot.  This is hard.  And these were two of my closest friends.  I can honestly say that My Bible makes SO much more sense now than it did before.  I cannot go back to the old ways of thinking.  But I can say that I was shaken today-I didn't like the feeling-at all.  But God did it for a reason-I know. 

Thanks for listening.:-)

peace,
Beth

[Roy Coates]

Beth,
You are so not alone. I like what Ray said once: " hell hath no fury like a christian just been shown the truth" Give them time. For me it was hard to accept the fact that all I had been taught about the Father and the Son had been lies. It hurt deep inside me. Many will not see what you do and a few will. I do get inspired to share with people and I do just like you" I haven't studied that yet" Better to remain quite and seem as a fool then to open my mouth and remove all doubt. You see you were wise in not discussing what you were not sure of, well done. If you are led to share Ray's work then do it. Do your best not to worry about the effect Ray's site or his papers will have on someone, leave that to the Holy Spirit. I only share bits and pieces with close friends and family. I hope and pray they ask for more and I give what I have. It is a lot to digest. If we try to eat a whole years food in one day we would die. Same goes for Spiritual food. Praying for you, Roy

[Marlene]

Beth, I know, that Ray has talked about people saying why should they obey God. Why, not live a life of si?. I at first thought the same stupid thing. One, I do not want to do that because I love God and he died for me and the whole world. Two, I love people and do not want to live such a stupid life of hurting others.  Unless God gives them eyes to see and ears to hear they will not see.

I came into here after God's deliverance of me from a trerrible sin. I could not forgive some one and I ended up in worse shape then they were.
One, that taught me to not judge anymore two I forgave this person. But, I did not feel God could forgive me. I asked God for truth that night I was at my end. I felt I was going to this fabled place. But, that night saved my life. God showed me I did not know him. I just thought so. I served him out of fear of
Hell not out of Love. But, how could I do any differently. I believeed that night. It was his plan.

I was just as dumb to make that statement as they were. We have lots of need to obey. We should obey because of the Love for others. Love for God. Fear is not love.  I am sure someone on here can locate and post where these are. I lack computer skills. I wish I didn't but I do. But, you could put in a search and that could bring up what you need.

I have not been too quick to start to show anyone anything.

But, I see no way that Love equals torture. Nor, do they have the same meaning.
It was all so simple, but we were blind.  Now, we are not.

I just spend most of my time learning. Cause, I am well aware I am not equiped yet.

I know, one thing good to ask a person. I would ask them where the scripture is that says you have to believe in this life time. Also, one that  got my Mother-In- Law was if your son or daughter died and you had it within your power to save them would you. She said, Of Course. I said, so do you think you are more loving then your Creator.

Ray gave this verse in one of his papers. It has never left my mind.
Job Chapter 4 verse 17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

I used that  on my Mother In Law and she said, " I don't get it." She really did not get it. She thought she was more capable of forgiving then God.
She is blind she really did not see it.

I could have spent all night on that one verse. God opens there eyes and we are to study and understand before we can help anyone.
At, one time I read that verse and I gave it no thought about what that verse is really saying. If, I love someone and would not want them in Hell , but I think God is not able to Love them more. It was not me who is pure and who died on the cross.

Well, sorry to hear about how hard your time went with them. I gave up the trying to convince anyone. God is able to lead anyone he wants to his truths in any way he want. God just choose to lead us in here. I am so blessed he did.

You are just so excited for everyone to believe. But, yet God has showed us all through the Bible about the many and the few.

In His Love,
Marlene

[Kat]

Hi Beth,

Well it is such a hard thing to share these things with those that are blind, it just makes no sense to them.  I did the same thing as you, after I had been studying for a while (about a year) and I talked to my best friend.  I didn't have to answer a lot of questions, because she didn't ask any.  I believe it was just too much of a foreign thing to her and she has not come to me with any questions since then.

For quite a long time after coming to the truth I did not possess real confidence to explain what I believed.  But after coming to this truth (3 1/2 years ago), I am starting to come to a point where I feel it is not just knowing all the right Scriptures, but having an understanding of this truth.  It's gaining the basic knowledge and then the pieces just come together and you can apply this to so much.  Take the Lazarus and the rich man parable, first of all it is a parable not a story of real people.  This parable can not be talking about being in hell fire, because these people were dead and Scripture do not contradict.

Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they will die;
       But the dead know nothing,
       And they have no more reward,
       For the memory of them is forgotten.

You see knowing the dead are dead and there is no way to reason around that, and they is no argument to it.  Well what is it talking about?  Judgment and that's another thing people don't get.  Just because there is no hell to torture people for eternity, there is judgment.  At the resurrection of the dead everyone will have to give account.

Rom 14:12  So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.

But you will build more confidence in time.  So don't let this first discussion get you down, you are learning and it is a process.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[mharrell08]

Hello Beth,

Don't be too hard on yourself...if the Lord has not given them an understanding of the Truth, they will never understand. You could be the most eloquent, dynamic speaker in the world with infinite spiritual knowledge...but if the Lord has not given them understanding, opened their spiritual eyes to see spiritual truths - it won't make a difference.

We read of passages that speak of being spiritually blind as well as passages that speak of being given spiritual sight...but we don't fully comprehend until these truths manifest in our lives. These real life experiences should be the witness & testimony to reassure you that what you believe is true. Look at the passage below and think of the conversation you had with your friends...the Word of God is REAL in your LIFE.

2 Cor 4:1-5   

1  Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;

2  But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

3  But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4  In whom the god of this world [Satan] hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

5  For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[aqrinc]

Hi Beth,

During training is where you get to measure how far you have come, and how much farther there still is to go. We know what the outcome will be so keep on studying and learning, when you are ready, Jesus Christ Will Have the perfect place for you.

Isa 32: 1-8 (BBE)
1  See, a king will be ruling in righteousness, and chiefs will give right decisions.
2  And a man will be as a safe place from the wind, and a cover from the storm; as rivers of water in a dry place, as the shade of a great rock in a waste land.

3  And the eyes of those who see will not be shut, and those who have hearing will give ear to the word.
4  The man of sudden impulses will become wise in heart, and he whose tongue is slow will get the power of talking clearly.

Isa 32: 4 (MKJV)   (Different translation of V4)
And the heart of the rash shall understand knowledge, and the tongue of those who stutter shall be ready to speak plainly.

5  The foolish man will no longer be named noble, and they will not say of the false man that he is a man of honour.
6  For the foolish man will say foolish things, having evil thoughts in his heart, working what is unclean, and talking falsely about the Lord, to keep food from him who is in need of it, and water from him whose soul is desiring it.

7  The designs of the false are evil, purposing the destruction of the poor man by false words, even when he is in the right.
8  But the noble-hearted man has noble purposes, and by these he will be guided.

So until that day your duty is to:

2Timothy 2: 15-16 (MKJV)
15  Study earnestly to present yourself approved to God, a workman that does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.
16  But shun profane, vain babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness.

george .

[bambam]

Thank you all SO much! I could hug you all!   I just felt so disheartened today.  But I know that "Rome wasn't built in a day"  and I just need to keep studying!!  My biggest prayer is for the ability to begin discussion with my husband-even in little tidbits here or there.  I can tell you that being here has been a great encouragement to me.  I know I am not alone.  And God is Love and I am so in awe of who he is and what he has done and is doing.  The gospel truly IS glorious to me now!!  I can't get enough of the scriptures either.  Thanks again for the loving, and kind words the have helped calm my heart!

Peace to you all!
Beth

[tinknocker]

Hi Beth

I have also experienced what you described in your post. I felt I had fail God. In the last several years  I've come to learn these encounters God has set up for us are for our self judgement to measure where we are still lacking and to encourage us to stay in His word correctly learning the word of God. You cannot correctly teach without learning it first. All these encounters are measuring sticks for our benefit. I came across this verse some time ago that gave me encouragement.

1 Peter 2 : 20
After all what kind of glory is there in it if, when you do wrong and are punished for it, you take it patiently? BUT if you bear patiently with suffering which results when you DO RIGHT and that is undeserved, it is acceptable and PLEASING TO GOD.

I came to realize when we are chastized for telling the truth about God's love wither it is accepted or understood by those hearing it, is pleasing to God.

Be strong in your stance by knowing the truth,

Tom

[Terry]

Hello BamBam,
The same thing happened to me and after studing Ray's paper

Twelve Truths to Understanding His Word
It really helped me to start to understand, as i look back i think it was the foundation of my believing the Scriptures

[A] "All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitude in PARABLES; and without a parable spoke He not unto them" (Matt. 13:34).
"But without a PARABLE spoke He not unto them..." (Mark 4:34).
[C] "This PARABLE spoke Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which He spoke unto them" (John 10:6).

Jesus taught in parables only, and no one understood His parables, hence Jesus taught in a way that He knew no one would understand His message. This truth of Scripture is so revolutionary to the minds of most Christians that many will think it blasphemy, and yet the Scriptures abound with statements that fully support it.

I was telling my uncle back in Dec. about Lazarus and the Rich Man and that it wasn't literal and that it was a parable and he asked how could I be sure it was a parable and I showed him Matt. 13:34

All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitude in PARABLES; and without a parable spoke He not unto them" (Matt. 13:34).

After reading that he asked me well what about the five brothers and i told him refer to Matt.13:34 and so he says to me I don't get it I just don't see it, so the thing is until he and everyone else does see it and believes it they will never understand.

So the Thing of it comes down to who was teaching  Lazarus and the Rich man,( answer Jesus)so it can be no mistake This is a Parable.

When I first started to see these things (as few as they are) I thought I had to share with everyone I knew, especially my family who are Christians, well it didn't take long to see this wasn't going anywhere,so far of all i've shared these wonderful truths with only my wife see's it,and that is huge for me, until God wants us to see his truths we will not understand the Scriptures . 

God Bless
Terry

[Nelson]

Hi Beth,

I wish I could do what Jesus did when he opened up people's understanding.  But I cannot.  This is hard.  And these were two of my closest friends.  I can honestly say that My Bible makes SO much more sense now than it did before.  I cannot go back to the old ways of thinking.  But I can say that I was shaken today-I didn't like the feeling-at all.  But God did it for a reason-I know. 

You've answered your own question, you simply CANNOT do what Jesus did, only He can do it,

• "Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me." And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures" (Lu 24:44, 45)

A few days after Paul was converted he went to the synagogue & reasoned with the Jews that Jesus is the Christ,

• "Immediately he preached the Christ in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God. Then all who heard were amazed, and said, "Is this not he who destroyed those who called on this name in Jerusalem, and has come here for that purpose, so that he might bring them bound to the chief priests?" But Saul increased all the more in strength, and confounded the Jews who dwelt in Damascus, proving that this Jesus is the Christ" (Act 9:20-22)

How many of those to whom he 'proved' that Jesus is the Christ repented and converted? How many put their faith in Christ as a result of Paul's preaching?

• "Now after many days were past, the Jews plotted to kill him" (Ac 9:23)

Paul now makes his way to Jerusalem and starts disputing with the Greeks,

• "And he spoke boldly in the name of the Lord Jesus and disputed against the Hellenists, but they attempted to kill him. When the brethren found out, they brought him down to Caesarea and sent him out to Tarsus" (Ac 9:29, 30)

Why was this all happening? After a supernatural conversion Paul's preaching work was amounting to nothing and now both the Jews and the Greeks wanted him dead. The problem - Paul was still using his own ability and knowledge to preach Christ, and he was even able to prove that Jesus was the Christ but it made no difference. He had to 1) Lose all traces of religion from himself and 2) recognise that it is Christ, not Him, that is doing the work. So, the disciples sent him away for his own good and he remained away for a further 14 years,

• "Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain" (Gal 2:1, 2)

Paul learned very valuable lessons. He learned that he cannot do anything without Christ, and so recognised that it was a waste of time trying to convert people himself. He also learned patience, waiting on the Lord to do His work. Let's take a look at the 'new' Paul,

• "Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, "Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away. So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus" (Ac 13:1-4)

I'm sure you don't need me to remind you of the powerful work that Paul did in Christ's name from this point forward. There's nothing in scripture to show that he managed to convert even one person himself. But the Lord IN HIM planted several congregations throughout the Roman empire. The Lord still had to work on Paul before he could become a useful vessel in His hands, and boy what a vessel he was when he could say,

• "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me" (Gal 2:20)

Dearest Beth, we're all like Paul. We want to preach Christ from the rooftops, in the valleys and on the street corners, but any work that is of ourselves will amount to nothing. However, take courage as the Lord is working in each one of us to make us into vessels of honour, shaping and molding each one of us until we are ready for the work for which we were chosen, and THEN, the Holy spirit will send us forth. Never underestimate the difference between going out ourselves and being sent forth. Those sent forth do the Lord's work, otherwise it's our own work.

Be patient and humble. Don't worry about whether you can argue with the theologians or prove that Jesus is the Christ, that all mankind will be saved and there is no hell, for those who are not the Lord's cannot hear such words, but the Lord's sheep know HIS voice and will always follow Him. So, like Paul, live by the faith in the Son of God and He will bear fruitage to God in you in due season.

Don't worry about the work of the Lord, instead focus on the Lord of the work and HE will complete that for which He was sent through you.

• "And a vision appeared to Paul in the night. A man of Macedonia stood and pleaded with him, saying, "Come over to Macedonia and help us." Now after he had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go to Macedonia, concluding that the Lord had called us to preach the gospel to them" (Ac 16:9, 10)

• "Now the Lord spoke to Paul in the night by a vision, "Do not be afraid, but speak, and do not keep silent; for I am with you, and no one will attack you to hurt you; for I have many people in this city." And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them" (Ac 18:9-11)

• "But the following night the Lord stood by him and said, "Be of good cheer, Paul; for as you have testified for Me in Jerusalem, so you must also bear witness at Rome" (Ac 23:11)

• "And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God" (1 Cor 2:3, 4)

May the Lord give of His grace and truth to you to see His mighty hand at work in you, to His own magnificence and glory.

Grace and peace to you and yours

Nelson

[hillsbororiver]

Beautiful.

Excellent post Nelson. There is much to meditate on here for me and I am sure many others.

Peace,

Joe

[Kat]

I agree Joe, that was a really meaningful post Nelson.  Certainly helped me understand a few things better and gave me much to think about.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[daywalker]

Hello Beth,

All you need to do is believe ONE SIMPLE TRUTH:


God is in complete control of EVERYTHING... yes, EVERYTHING.

Many Scriptures confirm this fact. One great verse is Ephesians 1:11; and one great Chapter is Ecclesiastes 3.


This TRUTH alone is all you need to destroy the ENTIRE FOUNDATION of Mainstream Christianity.


God is in control ... therefore man has NO free will. [Eph 1:11]
God is in control ... therefore everyone "shall be saved", because GOD WILLS IT [I Tim 2:3-4]
God is in control ... therefore there shall be "no more tears, no more pain, no more death" [Rev 21:4]
God is in control ... therefore there shall be "no more curse" [Rev 22:3]
God is in control ... therefore "Behold, I [GOD] shall make ALL THINGS NEW" [Rev 21:5]
God is in control ... therefore ALL that God has SPOKEN, HE SHALL DO [Isa 46:10]


GOD IS IN CONTROL; NOT MAN. THE CHURCH DOESN'T TEACH THIS. CHRISTIANS DON'T TRULY BELIEVE THIS. BUT YOU BELIEVE THIS ONE TRUTH, HOLD IT CLOSE TO YOUR HEART AT ALL TIMES AND NO ONE CAN MAKE YOU STUMBLE; NOT EVEN THE DEVIL HIMSELF!


May God Guide Thee,

Christopher.  

[Marlene]

Amen to that  Christopher!

Marlene

[Terry]

Thanks Nelson for the indepth and profound reply, God has given you much wisdom, i will keep reading your reply until it reaches the depths of my heart and mind.

God Bless
Terry

[bambam]

I am learning and do know that God is in control of everything.  It amazes me the peace that comes when you finally rest in that.  But I have so much more learning to do, that I know as well!!  I don't know what to say, except you all have confirmed within me, that I have the truth and the truth truly DOES set you free.  Have any of you struggled with believing the truth right away when you found it? 

Thank you all,
Beth

[meee]

        Hi Beth, I have , but I realized it was the evil one coming to try and steal it away .      I had prayed for God to show me His Truth and I beleive He did, bringing me to BT. So I am trusting Him, that I am where He wants me .
        hugs,meee

[bambam]

Thanks Meee.  I trust that I am exactly where He wants me too!  It has been wonderful to be back here again!!

Beth  

[meee]

          Hey Beth, we're thankful you are here too. I'm thankful for each and everyone of you.  I know I have so much to unlearn, it doesn't want to go easily and keeps tripping me up. So I know here in the forum someone will set my stinking thinking straight, when I foolishly say the wrong thing.
          And, I know in doublemindedness , we aren't trusting and really believing.   God brings me back to reality pretty quickly , when the evil one throws his darts my way. I am always praying  " Show me your truth God, and let me not be deceived by anyone or anything. "
           luvya girl and ya'll!       meee           

[Phil3:10]

Beth,
Nelson really hit the nail on the head. We can't, only GOD can open peoples eyes to HIS truths. Your good example is your best teaching method. Continue to grow in HIM and HE will use you as HE sees fit to use you. Thank HIM for HIS infinite mercy and love and praise HIM who is everything.
In HIM,
Phil3:10