The infamous chariots of iron verse?

[Astrapho]

I know that this is a very silly and trivial question, but it still really bugs me.

Jdg 1:19  And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

First time I read it, I was like, "What?!"

And now, I'm still like, "What?!"

I read it over and over again and I can't figure it out. How come they lost to the people in the valley when GOD is on their side (And the side God is on always wins), because of "chariots of iron"? 

(Sorry if it's been posted before!  )

[lilitalienboi16]

I know that this is a very silly and trivial question, but it still really bugs me.

Jdg 1:19  And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

First time I read it, I was like, "What?!"

And now, I'm still like, "What?!"

I read it over and over again and I can't figure it out. How come they lost to the people in the valley when GOD is on their side (And the side God is on always wins), because of "chariots of iron"? 

(Sorry if it's been posted before!  )

lol no worries man. Let it bother you, think about it, chew on it, spit it out, whatever! haha

I personally have a few suggestions of my own.

1. Did you check other translations and look at the word translated as "but could not drive out?"
2. God obviously planed that this people not move into the valley but that it remain in the hands of those who  fought on chariots of iron. Not sure exactly why this should disturb you?
3. Have you considered that this passage is writting from a relativestic point of view as opposed to an absolute [God's View]?

Many times in scripture a passage is written from the perspective of a mans. For example, The jews cursing God.

Just because they cursed God, does that mean that God was really cursed? Of course not!

Make sence? I hope this helps.

God bless,

Alex

[Astrapho]

The only other translation I have which make smore sense is by YLT:

(YLT)  and Jehovah is with Judah, and he occupieth the hill-country, but not to dispossess the inhabitants of the valley, for they have chariots of iron.

But it still makes no sense. Why not dispossess the inhabitants of the valley, just because they have chariots of iron? >.<

Relativistic didn't work out very well either.

2. God obviously planed that this people not move into the valley but that it remain in the hands of those who  fought on chariots of iron. Not sure exactly why this should disturb you?

It's just... Weird.   I mean, it's just so random.

edit (elaboration): I first came across it when it was quoted by an atheist to prove the bible makes no sense. And it doesn't, not really. I know that it doesn't change the fact the scriptures are truth, but it's just a little odd. 

[NoviceBeliever]

If you look at it from a perspective that those in the valley are God's chosen and the chariot of iron as God giving the chosen the tools to stay the course, it makes sense to me. Just my thought. NB

[lilitalienboi16]

The only other translation I have which make smore sense is by YLT:

(YLT)  and Jehovah is with Judah, and he occupieth the hill-country, but not to dispossess the inhabitants of the valley, for they have chariots of iron.

But it still makes no sense. Why not dispossess the inhabitants of the valley, just because they have chariots of iron? >.<

Relativistic didn't work out very well either.

2. God obviously planed that this people not move into the valley but that it remain in the hands of those who  fought on chariots of iron. Not sure exactly why this should disturb you?

It's just... Weird.   I mean, it's just so random.

edit (elaboration): I first came across it when it was quoted by an atheist to prove the bible makes no sense. And it doesn't, not really. I know that it doesn't change the fact the scriptures are truth, but it's just a little odd. 

lol don't wrestle the scriptures to your own destruction

It makes perfect sense, specially young's literal translation.

God simply tells us He didn't dispose of the men in the valley and the reason for why He didn't do it.

I think you are confusing the fact that God didn't do it with somehow an inability on God's part TO DO it.
Simply because God explains why He didn't do it [not that He can't], because they have chariots of iron, doesn't mean He can't. Understand? God didn't say, "I CANNOT dispose of them" but simply that He didn't, BECAUSE and than gives the reason.

Capeesh? )

[Astrapho]

I think you are confusing the fact that God didn't do it with somehow an inability on God's part TO DO it.
Simply because God explains why He didn't do it [not that He can't], because they have chariots of iron, doesn't mean He can't. Understand? God didn't say, "I CANNOT dispose of them" but simply that He didn't, BECAUSE and than gives the reason.

Yeah, I know, but it didn't clear it up for me.

They can drive out the inhabitants of the valley, but they don't do it. And the reason God gives? "They had chariots of iron".   I found it a little too simple (and a little ridiculous), but maybe that's just me trying to find meaning where there is none. (And we know God works in strange ways!)

If you look at it from a perspective that those in the valley are God's chosen and the chariot of iron as God giving the chosen the tools to stay the course, it makes sense to me. Just my thought. NB

Well hey, that certainly does makes more sense, actually.  

[Extol]

Judges 3:1-2--
1And these [are] the nations which Jehovah left, to try Israel by them, all who have not known all the wars of Canaan
2(only for the sake of the generations of the sons of Israel's knowing, to teach them war, only those who formerly have not known them) --


I am not sure if any of these nations are the same who had the iron chariots of chapter one, but it does remind us that God uses things---even evil things---for His purposes. ALL things are of God, as Paul wrote in 2 Cor. 5:18.

Astrapho, atheists can take hundreds and thousands of examples, both from the Bible and the world today, to argue that there is no God. Why? Because their minds are weak and carnal, and cannot grasp the sovereignty of God. They think that if there is a god, he (or it) would make all things perfect (from man's perspective), because that is what they want. And since all things aren't perfect right now, there must be no god.

This chariots of iron verse seems odd and hard to explain, but no more so than things you might see every day.
You see a crippled girl in a wheelchair who will never walk. That seems unfair. The atheist asks: If there's a God, why doesn't He make her walk?
You drive by a car accident. That seems unfair. The atheist asks: If God exists, why didn't He just prevent the crash?

These things are sad to us as well, even though we are believers, but we have the great comfort of knowing that God is working ALL things after the counsel of His own will (Eph. 1:11).

[mharrell08]

I think you are confusing the fact that God didn't do it with somehow an inability on God's part TO DO it.
Simply because God explains why He didn't do it [not that He can't], because they have chariots of iron, doesn't mean He can't. Understand? God didn't say, "I CANNOT dispose of them" but simply that He didn't, BECAUSE and than gives the reason.

Yeah, I know, but it didn't clear it up for me.

They can drive out the inhabitants of the valley, but they don't do it. And the reason God gives? "They had chariots of iron".   I found it a little too simple (and a little ridiculous), but maybe that's just me trying to find meaning where there is none. (And we know God works in strange ways!)

If you look at it from a perspective that those in the valley are God's chosen and the chariot of iron as God giving the chosen the tools to stay the course, it makes sense to me. Just my thought. NB

Well hey, that certainly does makes more sense, actually.  

Hello Astrapho,

The Canaanites, a pagan nation, were the people in the valley [Judges 1:8]...they are never likened to God's Elect. The chariots of iron have nothing to do with the Elect staying the course. Remember, 2-3 witnesses for every truth and they must spiritually 'match'.

The Lord stated that they would overthrow the Canaanites, even with their 'chariots of iron':

Joshua 17:14-18

14  And the children of Joseph spake unto Joshua, saying, Why hast thou given me but one lot and one portion to inherit, seeing I am a great people, forasmuch as the LORD hath blessed me hitherto?

15  And Joshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and cut down for thyself there in the land of the Perizzites and of the giants, if mount Ephraim be too narrow for thee.

16  And the children of Joseph said, The hill is not enough for us: and all the Canaanites that dwell in the land of the valley have chariots of iron, both they who are of Bethshean and her towns, and they who are of the valley of Jezreel.

17  And Joshua spake unto the house of Joseph, even to Ephraim and to Manasseh, saying, Thou art a great people, and hast great power: thou shalt not have one lot only:

18  But the mountain shall be thine; for it is a wood, and thou shalt cut it down: and the outgoings of it shall be thine: for thou shalt drive out the Canaanites, though they have iron chariots, and though they be strong.

But the reason that they did not drive them out is because GOD DID NOT WANT TO (at that time). Remember also what The Lord stated later on in Joshua:

Joshua 23:11-16

11  Take good heed therefore unto yourselves, that ye love the LORD your God.

12  Else if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, even these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you:

13  Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

14  And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, and not one thing hath failed thereof.

15  Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

16  When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.

and

Joshua 24:19-21

19  And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

20  If ye forsake the LORD, and serve strange gods, then he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, after that he hath done you good.

21  And the people said unto Joshua, Nay; but we will serve the LORD.

And we also know that there was no heart in them [Deut 5:29] to serve the Lord. Remember: 'a little leaven leavened the whole lump'...this is true in righteousness [Matt 13:33] as well as wickedness [1 Cor 5:6]. There had to remain a few Canaanites so that it would be fulfilled the tribes of Israel 'go into them' and 'they into them'...that they would serve other gods.

Joshua told the tribes of Israel that God is a jealous God (intolerant of unfaithfulness/disloyalty) but the children of Israel spoke and said they WOULD serve the Lord. We all know Who's WILL won out...and God did not drive out the Canaanites in the valley to fulfill His intentions of Israel being turned away to other gods [Judges 1:28-32].

The Lake of Fire series part 15-B [http://bible-truths.com/lake15-B.html] (under the headings 'THE NATION OF ISRAEL HAD NO FREE WILL/CHOICE' and 'ISRAEL'S HISTORY AND DESTINY WAS IN GOD'S HANDS) should help in understanding the overall purpose of all Israel has gone through & will go through.


Hope this helps,

Marques

P.S. Thanks for the additional witness Extol  

[Astrapho]

Marques and Extol:

Wow. I was actually wondering if we ever find out who the people in the valley are. That certainly cleared up a lot more things. I see I was looking in the wrong place for the answers... (was just reading that one localized chapter, and atop of that, I thought that those people in the mountains and valleys were like random strangers.)

And we also know that there was no heart in them [Deut 5:29] to serve the Lord. Remember: 'a little leaven leavened the whole lump'...this is true in righteousness [Matt 13:33] as well as wickedness [1 Cor 5:6]. There had to remain a few Canaanites so that it would be fulfilled the tribes of Israel 'go into them' and 'they into them'...that they would serve other gods.

Your explanation just cleared up everything. Thanks so much Marques!

The sum of God's word is truth indeed.

Because their minds are weak and carnal, and cannot grasp the sovereignty of God. They think that if there is a god, he (or it) would make all things perfect (from man's perspective), because that is what they want. And since all things aren't perfect right now, there must be no god.

I think you nailed the atheist's mindset right there. 
I stumbled across the atheist website quite by accident a few years ago, actually, and ironically, it was the website which kick started my interest in the scriptures (resulting in me finding bible-truths quite some time later).

[chuckt]

I know that this is a very silly and trivial question, but it still really bugs me.

Jdg 1:19  And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

First time I read it, I was like, "What?!"

And now, I'm still like, "What?!"

I read it over and over again and I can't figure it out. How come they lost to the people in the valley when GOD is on their side (And the side God is on always wins), because of "chariots of iron"? 

(Sorry if it's been posted before!  )

greetings,

when i  read it in the interlinear i see it says that he wouldnt evict them, not that he couldnt.

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/jdg1.pdf

he took over the mountain not to evict....to them he gives to caleb......


what say you?


God bless
chuckt