My Question for 'Pro-choice' Christians

[daywalker]

Wazzup BT Crew,

For whatever reason I was thinking about this topic today... probably inspired by the post 'aborted babies' by Geoff, that I just got done reading. Anyway, I don't know how many of you have met a "pro-choice" Christian [talk about an oxymoron...] but I have met a few in the past... perhaps because I live in the incredibly stupid [or to be politically-correct 'liberal'] state of California. I tell ya, I love livin' here, the weather is great, but the residents are not all that bright...

Anyway, I thought I'd share a 'question' that I always ask these 'pro-choice' Christians, whenever I get stuck in a conversation with them... The funny part is they think they're so knowledgeable and they actually try to use Science to defend their beliefs; but get them on the topic of Evolution and suddenly Science is the 'devil'.

Well, after I let them go through their spill about how premature babies aren't alive and they're part of the mother's body and she has the 'right' to decide and that's why abortion isn't killing blah blah blah... I tell them I have ONE Question for them. And here it is:


Do you then believe that Mary had the 'right' to abort Jesus Christ should she have desired to do so? Would you have been okay with her decision to 'abort' the Saviour of the World, and supported her decision the same as you do every other woman?


**Technically that's two questions, but they go together**

I've asked this question to several of these 'pro-choice' Christians and so far I've gotten the SAME RESPONSE every time: They give me the 'stunned' face  ...and they walk away and never talk to me about it again. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED


Welp, there's my story of the day. Peace, Out

Daywalker 

[Kat]

Hi Daywalker,

I believe there is no 'what ifs.'  Everything that happens can not have been any other way, all is exactly as God planned it.  That is the only way it can be since He knows the end from the beginning and of course everything in between.

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning,
      And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
      Saying, "My counsel shall stand,
      And I will do all My pleasure,'

I do not know why God has caused some to not see the preciousness of human life, I just see it as part of this evil experience for now. All of these evils that are happening in this world will one day be put in perspective.  As long as we have confidence in the sovereignty of God we can be assured that His plan will eventually correct all wrongs.

Rev 21:4  And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."  

Heb 3:14  For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end,

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Amrhrasach]

Wazzup BT Crew,

For whatever reason I was thinking about this topic today... probably inspired by the post 'aborted babies' by Geoff, that I just got done reading. Anyway, I don't know how many of you have met a "pro-choice" Christian [talk about an oxymoron...] but I have met a few in the past... perhaps because I live in the incredibly stupid [or to be politically-correct 'liberal'] state of California. I tell ya, I love livin' here, the weather is great, but the residents are not all that bright...

Anyway, I thought I'd share a 'question' that I always ask these 'pro-choice' Christians, whenever I get stuck in a conversation with them... The funny part is they think they're so knowledgeable and they actually try to use Science to defend their beliefs; but get them on the topic of Evolution and suddenly Science is the 'devil'.

Well, after I let them go through their spill about how premature babies aren't alive and they're part of the mother's body and she has the 'right' to decide and that's why abortion isn't killing blah blah blah... I tell them I have ONE Question for them. And here it is:


Do you then believe that Mary had the 'right' to abort Jesus Christ should she have desired to do so? Would you have been okay with her decision to 'abort' the Saviour of the World, and supported her decision the same as you do every other woman?


**Technically that's two questions, but they go together**

I've asked this question to several of these 'pro-choice' Christians and so far I've gotten the SAME RESPONSE every time: They give me the 'stunned' face   ...and they walk away and never talk to me about it again. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED


Welp, there's my story of the day. Peace, Out

Daywalker  

Touchy and sensitive subject.  

If one thread on this matter has been closed do you really think another on the subject of abortion/abortion right is appropriate?

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

No offense, personally.

Gary

[daywalker]

Touchy and sensitive subject.  

If one thread on this matter has been closed do you really think another on the subject of abortion/abortion right is appropriate?

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

No offense, personally.

Gary

Hey Gary,

Thanks for your response and no offense taken... Personally, I don't see this topic any more 'touchy' than a topic on whether or not to support our troops killing people in Iraq or wherever, or any other topic about 'killing' and 'violence'. To me, killing is killing, simple as that. If you're a follower of Jesus Christ then you don't kill or support killing. But don't mistake my words into thinking that I look down on those who are 'pro-choice' and exalt myself higher than them... I know they are deceived, as I know that I have been deceived on things in the past, and perhaps on some things still am deceived. I only know what God has revealed to me, as everyone else, and I cannot take credit for any knowledge I have, nor treat others differently...

The way I understood--the last post was closed because everything that could be said was said, and any other reply would be some form of repeating a previous idea. I'm only sharing an experience I had; not trying to start a debate on abortion.


Hey Kat,

Thanks for your response. It's always important to remember that God is in Control and all knowledge that we as individuals have came from God and not out of our own intellect. And it's true there are many things we don't yet understand, and probably won't until the next aion. That can be frustrating at times, but thank God it won't be like this forever.


Peace, Out

Daywalker 

[NoviceBeliever]

I wasn't going to reply to this post, as it is a very touchy and personal subject for me, but I think Kat has summed it up very well...

I believe there is no 'what ifs.'  Everything that happens can not have been any other way, all is exactly as God planned it.  That is the only way it can be sense He knows the end from the beginning and of course everything in between.

I do not know why God has caused some to not see the preciousness of human life, I just see it as part of this evil experience for now. All of these evils that are happening in this world will one day be put in perspective.  As long as we have confidence in the sovereignty of God we can be assured that His plan will eventually correct all wrongs.

and I think the following needs to be added;

(Mat 7:1 CLV)  Do not judge, lest you may be judged,

(Mat 7:2 CLV)  for with what judgment you are judging, shall you be judged, and with what measure you are measuring, shall it be measured to you."

(Mat 7:3 CLV)  Now why are you observing the mote that is in your brother's eye, yet the beam in your eye you are not considering?

(Mat 7:4 CLV)  Or how will you be declaring to your brother, 'Brother, let me extract the mote out of your eye,' and lo! the beam is in your eye?

(Mat 7:5 CLV)  Hypocrite! Extract first the beam out of your eye, and then you will be keen-sighted to be extracting the mote out of your brother's eye."

This just as any sin, repentance must take place between the individual and GOD.  We are not to judge. NB

[daywalker]

For the record:

I have cast no judgment here... it seems some are misinterpreting my post... The reason for my 'question' at the time was to show the person whom I was talking to the err of their statements, not to judge them for what they believed.

About two years ago...

A close friend of mine came to me for advice. She confessed to me that she had aborted her baby 2 years before, and hadn't told anyone, including her parents and the guy that got her pregnant. I was the first one she told. The reason she said she told me was because I was the only person she knew that she felt she could talk to without feeling like I was judging her. I comforted her and told her what's done is done and that she needed to repent to God and also to forgive herself, because it would only do her harm to carry that burden with her.

I've done more than my share of sinful deeds. I'm far from being a 'role model' for anyone. But I don't regret anything I've done, as it was through these acts that I've come to understand human nature better and also how to show mercy and compassion to others, and not judge people for what they do.

I shared my question because I feel it's an excellent question for Christians who aren't sure which side is right and wrong. It seems like some feel I'm casting judgment... not so! [I will admit there is sarcasm in my post, and maybe that's the cause for the misinterpretations... but that's just me... besides sarcasm doesn't equal judgment...]

He that is without sin cast the first stone.

This is how I've always lived my life... even long before I found BT.


Daywalker 

I wasn't going to reply to this post, as it is a very touchy and personal subject for me, but I think Kat has summed it up very well...

I believe there is no 'what ifs.'  Everything that happens can not have been any other way, all is exactly as God planned it.  That is the only way it can be sense He knows the end from the beginning and of course everything in between.

I do not know why God has caused some to not see the preciousness of human life, I just see it as part of this evil experience for now. All of these evils that are happening in this world will one day be put in perspective.  As long as we have confidence in the sovereignty of God we can be assured that His plan will eventually correct all wrongs.

and I think the following needs to be added;

(Mat 7:1 CLV)  Do not judge, lest you may be judged,

(Mat 7:2 CLV)  for with what judgment you are judging, shall you be judged, and with what measure you are measuring, shall it be measured to you."

(Mat 7:3 CLV)  Now why are you observing the mote that is in your brother's eye, yet the beam in your eye you are not considering?

(Mat 7:4 CLV)  Or how will you be declaring to your brother, 'Brother, let me extract the mote out of your eye,' and lo! the beam is in your eye?

(Mat 7:5 CLV)  Hypocrite! Extract first the beam out of your eye, and then you will be keen-sighted to be extracting the mote out of your brother's eye."

This just as any sin, repentance must take place between the individual and GOD.  We are not to judge. NB

[musicman]

I am neither for that stupid war or abortion.  But I could never have an abortion anyway.  Pro choice does not mean pro abortion.  It just implies that it shouldn't be up to us.  A woman's body is hers, regardless of whether we know that God created it.  If she doesn't feel this way, we might, ought to stay out of it.  Of course a fetus is alive, but I choose to leave it between them and God.  And this is a very political subject and is on one particular side of the political spectrum.  And it's not about abortion, it's about the legality of it.  I wish these talking points would be avoided on the forum.  

[Ninny]

Very well said, Musicman! Thank you! This topic is far too sensitive...
Kathy

[daywalker]

NOBODY here seems to have a problem speaking against those who tell the world that God is going to burn them all in Hellfire for all eternity...
NOBODY here seems to have a problem speaking against those who make threats to people who don't tithe their $$ to charlatans that God is going to punish them...

And yet, when it comes to 'abortion'.. Oh.. that's a touchy subject, I don't wanna talk about it... 

Pardon me but is not abortion a LESSER sin than false prophecy?
Which topic is more "touchy"--abortion or threatening to burn people with fire forever?

I get far more upset when I hear a theologian speak these horrible lies than I do when I hear of someone killing a fetus. To me those topics are VERY 'TOUCHY'. Yet, I and everyone here can speak about it [false prophecy] with no problems.

Sorry, musicman, but I don't see this as a Political topic but a Moral topic. If one supports abortion I believe they have a moral problem. But that doesn't mean I judge those because I don't. I have my own moral problems to deal with.


It's unfortunate that I bring up the 'abortion' topic, and the immediate response is people accusing me of judging...

falsely, I might add!!! [Romans 14:10]


In MY opinion, we here at this Forum should have no problems discussing ANY topic. We are supposed to be more matured than those out in the world as well as those in Babylon--yet even they are not hesitant to discuss this topic.

If this Forum cannot give an answer to EVERY topic, then what good are we to the rest of the world? These questions ALL need answers, and only WE [along with others who stick by the Scriptures...] can give the Right Answer. Are we going to 'poo-poo' aside every person who comes in and wants to hear what WE have to say about things like 'abortion' because it's just too touchy?


Alright, I've said all I had to say...

Christopher

[NoviceBeliever]

Christopher:

I think I need to be clear on this topic.  

First, my post was not directed at you, personally.  If you took it personally, that was not my intention. This post was started yesterday under another topic, and you just happened to be the one to continue it forward. My intention was to point out that we are so quick to condemn other people for committing a blatent sin and we really need to look to our own selves and that repenting is between that person and GOD.  

On the topic of abortion, can you even imagine what it would be like for a woman to have to go through this?  Can you even think for a second about the life-long trama, guilt, hurt, unworthiness, regret and yes, one of the worst life-long tribulations that someone in this situation would have to endure?!?!?!  It doesn't go away, and there is not much comfort to be found for most women. So yes, sarcasm for this topic is a bit hard for me, and many others to swallow.

So why are we feeling a need to debate this? The bible says this is wrong.

I know now that it is all in God's plans, but many people do not know this. Who am I to point out someone elses sins? Who are any of us to point out what God has made someone else believe, even if we have been given the truth?

I just keep remembering what Ray's says about at least we where was not born to be Hitler or Sadam Hussain and that even they are forgiven.  

As to your comment regarding "false prophecy", I guess it's a little easier to point the finger at the establishment or leader than to discuss something like murder one has committed, hits a little close to home doesn't it.

NB

[musicman]

Daywalker, I'll try and make this more clear.  I have no problem with us talking against abortion.  You are the one who mentioned people who are pro choice.  In other words, you are talking about the legality of it.  Nobody here to my knowledge, has suggested that hell fire teaching should be made illegal.  And as far as politics, it was you that mentioned the liberal pro choice christians.  So you have opened up a political talking point.  I suggest that you just talk about why abortion is killing a life and immoral.  But please leave the political legalities out of the discussion.

[Ninny]

Christopher,
It certainly wasn't my intention to upset you, and I do NOT agree that any sin is lesser than any other..and this is the very reason this topic is too sensitive for the forum..not that it is something we are pushing aside, but this turns out to be a very political topic because there is such controversy over it and people want to legislate it...It IS a moral subject, but there is no quick solution to the problem..like there is no solution to any other moral dilemma when it concerns a person's relationship with God..that is between each individual and God..you can't make anyone make the right moral choice..I am sorry if I offended you in any way by agreeing with Musicman on this one..I do NOT agree with the choice to have an abortion, but it is not for me to say, except where it concerns my own choices..I don't agree that abortion is right, but that is a person's own convictions.. I love you, you are a dear brother, but on this matter we must disagree, that doesn't make either of us more right or wrong..
Kathy

[mharrell08]

Please continue in PMs for the time being...another msg from the moderators may be posted later on.



Marques

[Craig]

Christopher,

I for one did not see you judging in your post.  The reason the last thread was locked as well as this one is because it is like musicman said, it eventually gets into the political, legal side of the argument.

On the first topic it did not, and after the post with Rays response I locked it, because I knew were the discussion would eventually go.  When you started the second discussion it did go there.  Remember the moderators have seen these threads several times over through the years and we can usually tell which topics will cause the most problems and lock them sooner rather than later.

I hope you can all see where we are coming from and ask for your understanding.

Craig