Luke,Matthew,and the virgin birth

[alchemist]

You people have had this conversation about the virgin birth more than once and I want to bring to the table the possibility of it never happening at all.Let me explain,Luke and Matthew(NOTE:Matthew and Luke probly didn't even write them) are the only ones in the bible that mention it.In mark 3:21 did his family just forget about the virgin birth and paul not once every seemed to acknowledge it.

People read the Matthew&Luke and just assume that these are true.In fact there are many parts of the bible people just assume are inspired.In the two thousand years since the birth of Jesus of Nazareth, the world of Christendom has seen incredible changes, including a split with the Eastern Orthodox Church and a Protestant Reformation, accompanied by a rejection of much core ideology. Yet throughout it all, the collection of  scripture called the New Testament has remained unchanged and largely unquestioned, even though it was assembled by the same church leaders whose beliefs many now refute.I might bring up this topic in a later thread and you'll understand what I mean later but for now I'm drawing my focus on Matthew&Luke.

EDITED: Don't get me wrong I'm not saying throw out these gospels just well...one false scripture can do more harm than a true one can do good.

[SteveW]

Isa 7:14  Therefore the Lord Himself giveth to you a sign, Lo, the Virgin is conceiving, And is bringing forth a son, And hath called his name Immanuel, (YLT)

Mat 5:17  `Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets--I did not come to throw down, but TO FULFIL; (YLT)

If you can't stand on the scriptures, how can you stand at all?

[Sorin]

If Jesus was not born of a virgin, then he would be the seed of Adam and thus born a sinner like the rest of us. Who do you think got Mary pregnant with Jesus, Joseph? Or perhaps another man? If you answered ,no,no, then Mary's still a virgin. If you answer yes to any of those than you have no Scripture to back it up. So which is it. But Like I said, we are all born sinners by virtue of being born of Adam. So if Jesus was concieved the old fashioned way, then we don't have a Saviour. For He would not be spotless and without blemish and sinless.

Take care,
Sorin

[eutychus]

its said the magi where alchemist.

[alchemist]

Isa 7:14  Therefore the Lord Himself giveth to you a sign, Lo, the Virgin is conceiving, And is bringing forth a son, And hath called his name Immanuel, (YLT)

Mat 5:17  `Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets--I did not come to throw down, but TO FULFIL; (YLT)

If you can't stand on the scriptures, how can you stand at all?

The correct translation for Isa 7:14 is maiden not virgin.

Sorin about Adam well...this I will have to explain later besides the subjects probly a little to big for this place.Infact Joe if your reading this remember when I asked you about satan,eden,and adam&eve you never answered my question.do you still need more time or did you just forget?Remember me I asked you to ban me?

EDIT:Sorin I don't see your point.Right now I'm criticizing matthew and luke so besides them do YOU have any proof for or against the birth.AS far as I have seen(AND I HAVE LOOKED) there is none as if it never happened.

[alchemist]

its said the magi where alchemist.

there's a lot about alchemy they say.Some say moses sister was an alchemist

[Daniel]

I understand the controversy, Paul even used Mary as an allegory somewhere having the "light of the gospel". As far as I can see him using her was in relation to a woman under the law to redeem those under it.

It was said of her, "that a sword would peirce her own soul, that the thoughts of many hearts be revealed

Shes used as a picture though she was who she was after the flesh, reason for her not knowing Joseph (not to be born of flesh for our comparison)

This is why I believe (set up this way) in the law it speaks of passing the inheritance along the "male side" of things. Moses was inquired of God concerning two (daughters) which had "no brothers". God allowed that it could come unto the daughters under exception which (after the flesh) brought Mary right to be included in the geneology after the flesh (I'm thinking). Although now, these things be of no value (as the epistles write) because we are to see them after the spirit and no longer after the flesh as they were intended.

Paul doesn't mention the virgin birth, He had "the Light" of the gospel expounding the spiritual truths contained therein. Thats how I see it anyway.

See the "one" being made a "type" of "the many" in Mary?

Isaiah 62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.


Peace

Daniel

[alchemist]

I understand the controversy, Paul even used Mary as an allegory somewhere having the "light of the gospel". As far as I can see him using her was in relation to a woman under the law to redeem those under it.

It was said of her, "that a sword would peirce her own soul, that the thoughts of many hearts be revealed

Shes used as a picture though she was who she was after the flesh, reason for her not knowing Joseph (not to be born of flesh for our comparison)

This is why I believe (set up this way) in the law it speaks of passing the inheritance along the "male side" of things. Moses was inquired of God concerning two (daughters) which had "no brothers". God allowed that it could come unto the daughters under exception which (after the flesh) brought Mary right to be included in the geneology after the flesh (I'm thinking). Although now, these things be of no value (as the epistles write) because we are to see them after the spirit and no longer after the flesh as they were intended.

Paul doesn't mention the virgin birth, He had "the Light" of the gospel expounding the spiritual truths contained therein. Thats how I see it anyway.

See the "one" being made a "type" of "the many" in Mary?

Isaiah 62:5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.


Peace

Daniel

I don't disagree with your opinion on paul you maybe right.Although you'd think it be mentioned somewhere else.

Youth version:
5For a young man doth marry a virgin, Thy Builders do marry thee, With the joy of a bridegroom over a bride, Rejoice over thee doth thy God.

I don't see how this applies to this topic remember virgin in old times also ment ummarried.

And further more how do you explainMark 3:21 about fis family saying he's beside himself as if nothing special ever happened in the past.

[eutychus]

its said the magi where alchemist.

there's a lot about alchemy they say.Some say moses sister was an alchemist

do you know anything about clear gold? white powder? manna? :wink:

[alchemist]

its said the magi where alchemist.

there's a lot about alchemy they say.Some say moses sister was an alchemist

do you know anything about clear gold? white powder? manna? :wink:

I've went pretty deap into alchemy but some stuffs kinda fuzzy since there's a lot and I haven't looked into it that much lately,but yeah I know some about that stuff and lets try and make this thread stay on topic.Don't want to slip into alchemy.

[eutychus]

its said the magi where alchemist.

there's a lot about alchemy they say.Some say moses sister was an alchemist

do you know anything about clear gold? white powder? manna? :wink:

I've went pretty deap into alchemy but some stuffs kinda fuzzy since there's a lot and I haven't looked into it that much lately,but yeah I know some about that stuff and lets try and make this thread stay on topic.Don't want to slip into alchemy.

my apologies.
carry on.

almah TWOT - 1630b
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
al-maw'      Noun Feminine  

Definition
virgin, young woman
of marriageable age
maid or newly married ++++ There is no instance where it can be proved that this word designates a young woman who is not a virgin. (TWOT

[alchemist]

its said the magi where alchemist.

there's a lot about alchemy they say.Some say moses sister was an alchemist

do you know anything about clear gold? white powder? manna? :wink:

I've went pretty deap into alchemy but some stuffs kinda fuzzy since there's a lot and I haven't looked into it that much lately,but yeah I know some about that stuff and lets try and make this thread stay on topic.Don't want to slip into alchemy.

my apologies.
carry on.

almah TWOT - 1630b
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
al-maw'      Noun Feminine  

Definition
virgin, young woman
of marriageable age
maid or newly married ++++ There is no instance where it can be proved that this word designates a young woman who is not a virgin. (TWOT

Bethulah and 'Almah
There are two important words in Hebrew that can be translated into English as "virgin": בתולה, bethulah, and עלמה, `almah. Isaiah uses `almah in the Masoretic Text, and so conservative Christians have tried to demonstrate that the word unambiguously means "virgin", while other scholars, Christian, Jewish and otherwise, have tried to demonstrate that the word means simply "young woman", without any necessary connotation of virginity. `Almah occurs seven times in the Hebrew Bible and usually seems to mean a young woman of marriageable age (e.g. Genesis 24:43), but is never used in the Old Testament of anyone who was not a virgin; bethulah is accepted in modern Hebrew usage as the characteristic Hebrew word for virgin. However, it is qualified by a statement ‘neither had any man known her’ in Gen. 24:16, and is used of a widow in Joel 1:8. In the Ugaritic tablets, btlt was used of the goddess Anath who was a consort of Baal; and in other records, the Aramaic counterpart of betûlah is used of a married woman.

[edit]
Parthenos
The fact that there is no Hebrew tradition of virgin birth â€" Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, and Hannah were infertile women who miraculously gave birth late in life â€" is consistent with the view that the Messiah would be unique, and Christian apologists argue that many first century Jews, including Jewish converts to Christianity, used the Septuagint, which explicitly uses the word παρθενος (parthenos) to mean "virgin": the root from which we derive words such as parthenogenesis.

Some scholars, however, claim that the Septuagint does not use parthenos very precisely, as it translates at least three different Hebrew words by it: bethulah, "maiden/virgin"; `almah, "maiden/virgin"; and נערה, na`arah, "maiden, young woman, servant". The meaning of the word parthenos in the Septuagint is sometimes expanded in a way not seen in the Isaiah of the (albeit centuries younger) Masoretic texts:

Genesis 24:16 And the damsel [parthenos = Hebrew na`arah] was very fair to look upon, a virgin [parthenos = Hebrew bethulah], neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up.
Judges 21:12 And they found among the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead four hundred young virgins [parthenous = Hebrew bethulah], that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan.
Additionally, the Greek-English Lexicon edited by Henry George Liddell and Robert Scott lists other meanings for the word:

παρθενος, parthenos, I. 1. maiden, girl; virgin, opp. γυνη gynê, "woman". 2. of unmarried women who are not virgins, Iliad 2.514, etc. 3. Parthenos, hê, the Virgin Goddess, as a title of Athena at Athens. 4. the constellation Virgo. II. as adj., maiden, chaste. III. as masc., parthenos, ho, unmarried man, Apocalypse 14.4.
Finally, there is archaeological evidence that Jewish speakers of Greek used the word parthenos elastically; Jewish catacombs in Rome identify married men and women as "virgins," and some have suggested that in this case the word was used to call attention to the fact that the deceased was someone's first spouse (although it is notable that this usage is from several centuries before the translation of the Septuagint [citation needed]). Certainly, Jews stopped using the more explicit Septuagint translation as Christianity spread, and post-Christian Jewish translations into Greek use νεανις, neanis, meaning "young (juvenile) woman", rather than parthenos.

from wikipedia and if you want more,I'll get more

[eutychus]

i personally dont need more. :wink:

2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


the flesh body of christ was just a house for the SPIRIT.


peace
chuckt

[Daniel]

don't disagree with your opinion on paul you maybe right.Although you'd think it be mentioned somewhere else.

Youth version:
5For a young man doth marry a virgin, Thy Builders do marry thee, With the joy of a bridegroom over a bride, Rejoice over thee doth thy God.

I don't see how this applies to this topic remember virgin in old times also ment ummarried.

And further more how do you explainMark 3:21 about fis family saying he's beside himself as if nothing special ever happened in the past.

You can rather look at it as a chaste virgin to Christ, wouldnt you think? To present them as a chaste virgin to Him. Sons, joined and one with Him in Spirit and led by the Spirit.

I don't see how the last question is figured into the equation, or see it after the flesh at all. Like Paul just using her as an allegory, "made of a woman" under the law. Seems to show that even Paul disregarded the need to call her ( who symbolized the many) as "A virgin" to whom he was writing. Showing "them" that He would like (in the reality of the thing) present "them" plural of whom it spoke as a virgin. See the comparison spiritually "rolling back" into the body of Christ through the comparison?

Not sure bout the reference to Mark how you see it fit in? Help me out here.

Peace Daniel

[alchemist]

don't disagree with your opinion on paul you maybe right.Although you'd think it be mentioned somewhere else.

Youth version:
5For a young man doth marry a virgin, Thy Builders do marry thee, With the joy of a bridegroom over a bride, Rejoice over thee doth thy God.

I don't see how this applies to this topic remember virgin in old times also ment ummarried.

And further more how do you explainMark 3:21 about fis family saying he's beside himself as if nothing special ever happened in the past.

You can rather look at it as a chaste virgin to Christ, wouldnt you think? To present them as a chaste virgin to Him. Sons, joined and one with Him in Spirit and led by the Spirit.

I don't see how the last question is figured into the equation, or see it after the flesh at all. Like Paul just using her as an allegory, "made of a woman" under the law. Seems to show that even Paul disregarded the need to call her ( who symbolized the many) as "A virgin" to whom he was writing. Showing "them" that He would like (in the reality of the thing) present "them" plural of whom it spoke as a virgin. See the comparison spiritually "rolling back" into the body of Christ through the comparison?

Not sure bout the reference to Mark how you see it fit in? Help me out here.

Peace Daniel

Maybe you'll understand it better with this:

Mark 3:21 (New Living Translation)

21When his family heard what was happening, they tried to take him home with them. "He's out of his mind," they said.

The point is that the virgin birth was a sign from god but here they just act like he's crazy and nothing happened that was special at all.

[hillsbororiver]

Isa 7:14  Therefore the Lord Himself giveth to you a sign, Lo, the Virgin is conceiving, And is bringing forth a son, And hath called his name Immanuel, (YLT)

Mat 5:17  `Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets--I did not come to throw down, but TO FULFIL; (YLT)

If you can't stand on the scriptures, how can you stand at all?

The correct translation for Isa 7:14 is maiden not virgin.

Sorin about Adam well...this I will have to explain later besides the subjects probly a little to big for this place.Infact Joe if your reading this remember when I asked you about satan,eden,and adam&eve you never answered my question.do you still need more time or did you just forget?Remember me I asked you to ban me?

EDIT:Sorin I don't see your point.Right now I'm criticizing matthew and luke so besides them do YOU have any proof for or against the birth.AS far as I have seen(AND I HAVE LOOKED) there is none as if it never happened.

Yes, I remember you (formerly) xxxxxxx, you sent me an extremely long e-mail which I have yet to read. It is a bit presumptuous to expect someone to jump when you say jump.

You have absolutely no idea what type of things were (and are) happening in my life, it is between the Lord and I how I prioritize, I have not been directed to seek your approval or to subject myself to your will.

I hope you understand,

Joe

[Daniel]

That was interestingly put, thanks for sharing that. Good stuff, never really thought to think about it that way.

Peace

Daniel

[alchemist]

Isa 7:14  Therefore the Lord Himself giveth to you a sign, Lo, the Virgin is conceiving, And is bringing forth a son, And hath called his name Immanuel, (YLT)

Mat 5:17  `Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets--I did not come to throw down, but TO FULFIL; (YLT)

If you can't stand on the scriptures, how can you stand at all?

The correct translation for Isa 7:14 is maiden not virgin.

Sorin about Adam well...this I will have to explain later besides the subjects probly a little to big for this place.Infact Joe if your reading this remember when I asked you about satan,eden,and adam&eve you never answered my question.do you still need more time or did you just forget?Remember me I asked you to ban me?

EDIT:Sorin I don't see your point.Right now I'm criticizing matthew and luke so besides them do YOU have any proof for or against the birth.AS far as I have seen(AND I HAVE LOOKED) there is none as if it never happened.

Yes, I remember you (formerly), you sent me an extremely long e-mail which I have yet to read. It is a bit presumptuous to expect someone to jump when you say jump.

You have absolutely no idea what type of things were (and are) happening in my life, it is between the Lord and I how I prioritize, I have not been directed to seek your approval or to subject myself to your will.

I hope you understand,

Joe

I just asked a question I was having a hard time with.Sorry about misunderstandings you didn't have to answer it if you didn't want to.

[hillsbororiver]

For the record my Rotherham's has Isaiah 62:5 as;

For a young man marrieth a virgin, thy sons marry thee! And the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride
Thy God rejoiceth over thee.

So does the E-sword KJV;

Isa 62:5  For as a young man marrieth a virgin1330, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.


H1330
בּתוּלה
bethûlâh
beth-oo-law'
Feminine passive participle of an unused root meaning to separate; a virgin (from her privacy); sometimes (by continuation) a bride; also (figuratively) a city or state: - maid, virgin.

[longhorn]

That's what Im hoping for every day, is to edit out who I was before.

Longhorn