Darren,
I have spent this afternoon reading over this thread… studying the subject at hand, as I am sure you have been since you made your original statement:
“What I am going to say will no doubt cause some discussion, but I believe from the very center of my being, which is God and his Son, that the truth was always in me and always available to me.”
I want to be careful of how I give an answer… everyday I visit this forum and I see that there are usually about twice as many guests here reading as there are members. Many of these guests are reading not only our current conversations, but also reading far back into the archives of conversations that we the members have long forgotten. It is for this reason that we should all be aware of our guests and for their sake and our own we must keep our discussions scripturally grounded.
Several posts back… you brought up Jeremiah 31 as a proof text that God has already written His law on our hearts.
Here is your statement:
“’Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.’
I think the real question is: Did God write his truth in the hearts of his people or did he not?
I firmly believe that He did.”
Darren do you believe that he “did” or do you believe that he is, was and will be writing His law on our hearts? Do you believe this was a one time event somewhere off in the distant past… ?
Let’s look at the passage again from Jeremiah:
Jeremiah 31:33-34
33: But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34: And no longer shall each man teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, `Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, says the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."
Where do you see it stated that God “has written” His law on our/their Hearts? It’s not there… not even in the original text…
Here is how it appears in the Hebrew in its original order:
“has this the-covenant which I-shall-cut with house-of Israel after the-days the-those averment-of Yahweh I give >> law-of-me within-them and-on heart-of-them I-shall-write-her and-I-become for Elohim and-they they-shall-become to-me for-people”
Notice again that the “I will put my law within them, and I will write it upon their hearts” is still in the indefinite tense”…
Furthermore, you then make this statement concerning Psalms 19:
“The truths that are to be found in all of creation (heavens, firmament, clouds) are in Davids mind (mine also) are more valuable than fine gold and sweeter to the heart than any other (wordly) word / doctrine. They are TRUTH.”
I have again read and re-read this Psalms 19 to see where you are seeing that God has placed the truth in us, so that “the truth was always in me and always available to me.”
Here is Psalms 19, in it’s entirety:
Psalms 19
0: To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David.
1: The heavens are telling the glory of God; and the firmament proclaims his handiwork.
2: Day to day pours forth speech, and night to night declares knowledge.
3: There is no speech, nor are there words; their voice is not heard;
4: yet their voice goes out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them he has set a tent for the sun,
5: which comes forth like a bridegroom leaving his chamber, and like a strong man runs its course with joy.
6: Its rising is from the end of the heavens, and its circuit to the end of them; and there is nothing hid from its heat.
7: The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
8: the precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes;
9: the fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever; the ordinances of the LORD are true, and righteous altogether.
10: More to be desired are they than gold, even much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and drippings of the honeycomb.
11: Moreover by them is thy servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward.
12: But who can discern his errors? Clear thou me from hidden faults.
13: Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me! Then I shall be blameless, and innocent of great transgression.
14: Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my redeemer.
Notice that the “ordinances of the Lord” which are” true and righteous altogether” did not originate in David’s mind or from within his being, but that God revealed this to him by “the heavens telling the glory of God and the firmament proclaiming his handiwork.”
Darren, there is no doubt that God has chosen His elect even before the foundations of the earth… but to day that he has already placed His truth in them nullifies the process of sanctification and the learning of righteousness in our lives during this present age.
John 17:1-26
1: When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify thy Son that the Son may glorify thee,
2: since thou hast given him power over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him.
3: And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
4: I glorified thee on earth, having accomplished the work which thou gavest me to do;
5: and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made.
6: "I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world; thine they were, and thou gavest them to me, and they have kept thy word.
7: Now they know that everything that thou hast given me is from thee;
8: for I have given them the words which thou gavest me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from thee; and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9: I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine;
10: all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them.
11: And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.
12: While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13: But now I am coming to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14: I have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15: I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one.
16: They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17: Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth.
18: As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.
19: And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.
20: "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
21: that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22: The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
23: I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.
24: Father, I desire that they also, whom thou hast given me, may be with me where I am, to behold my glory which thou hast given me in thy love for me before the foundation of the world.
25: O righteous Father, the world has not known thee, but I have known thee; and these know that thou hast sent me.
26: I made known to them thy name, and I will make it known, that the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them."
Darren, look at verse 17… notice that it is the word of God that is truth… that the Lord has prayed for those that belong to God so that they may be “sanctified” in and consecrated in truth”… for they are not yet one, even as the Father and the Son are one.
Darren, you state that: “Of course I cannot say I could voice everything, for I never once considered that Jehovah of the OT and Jesus Christ of the NT were one and the same, BUT the moment I heard it from Ray, I knew it to be true. I knew all of the contentious Scriptures that seemed to contradict, so I guess you could say I knew the truth when I heard it.”
But can you claim that you already possessed the sum of the word of God… before God led you to open up the scriptures and actually read and understand what they say?
Psalms 119:160
The sum of Thy word is truth, And to the age is every judgment of Thy righteousness!
John 14:5-6
5: Thomas said to him, "Lord, we do not know where you are going; how can we know the way?"
6: Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.
Jesus Christ is the Word of God, He is the way, THE TRUTH and the life… and the SUM OF HIS WORD IS TRUTH… do you believe that you possessed this before God led you to read the scriptures?
What troubles me most about this entire thread… is that Darren, to say that the truth has “always been in you and available to you”… and that “The truths that are to be found in all of creation (heavens, firmament, clouds) are in Davids mind (mine also)…” sound as though you are already sure of your election?
Let us not forget the words of Paul…
1 Corinthians 9:26-27
26: Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air;
27: but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
Let us seek to make our election sure… lest after preaching to others we ourselves should become disqualified.
God’s Peace.
Josh