Wow.... I'm touched there are so many responds from all loving member here.
Thank you... thank you very much in deed to all my responder.
I'm very sorry I can't respond to each respond, but in general I learn and understand about my topic in progress because of all my responder.
I know now, make choices is different than freewill.
Will is a will itself but can not called "free".
I decide what they eat, when they eat, when they go to the doctors, I bring them to classes on doggy behavior. I give love, I give treats, I withhold treats, etc.
But what about if I prepare his food, and he doesn't want to eat the food prepared in that exact time ? Is it the dog's freewill ? or is it the dog's choice (or just Will) ?
You can say more about this, too. Why do we wear shirts at all? Because we want to keep warm, and because we want to cover our nakedness. But why shirts? Why don’t we wear fish tanks? Because our bodies aren’t shaped to wear fish tanks. Why are our bodies shaped the way they are? Because that’s how GOD made them. You see all the causes?
Yes.... as in my first post I quoted that my
"freewill" will always subjected to His LAW-cause&effect. But then now I know, I can not call that a freewill - it's a choice or just a Will.
There are other reasons why free will can be dangerous. It can make you proud, and make you rely on your own limited abilities, and a number of other things.
To be honest, when I thought it's a freewill God gave me - it did make me "proud"
.
But "proud" in different sense... "proud" that God trusted me by giving freewill and I need to be responsible of that... I need to "warn" myself that whatever my choice to do is will have effect.
It is easier for me to just pile all my decisions onto God's "shoulders" and let Him be responsible for me
This is one reason that I like to have "freewill" ...
.
Every result which I did is not God's responsibility.... with my "freewill" I choose to eat too much then get stomachache is not God's responsibility...
.
I also have trouble explaining any of this to my free willer friends. They just don't want to "give up" any control and that is Pride! They don't want to be robots...even tho scripture plainly states HE is the potter and we are the clay.
Do the one who admit there is no freewill - must admit also that they are just robot ? puppet of God ?
It is true that free will does not exist. Does this mean we can't preach to bad people? Or one can reason "I am a prostitute because it is Gods' will? I would answer No to the first and a very careful and qualified yes to the second, qualified Because she is still fully accountable!.
But how can people be responsible if everything is God's Will and everything is His responsibility ?
So we by "default" HAVE to do our best, if we want to achieve any purpose, support our famlies, learn something new, run a business, achieve, do a ministry, resist evil, etc... even though God has already determined what will happen. The Olympic athlete must always train and train, and practice and practice, even though God has determined already he would win the gold. Without this training the Gold Medalist would not win. SO our participation is required because WE DO NOT KNOW THE FUTURE. We can NEVER have an attitude or NOT trying, or "laissez faire" just because God causes it all. Even though God may be the cause, we still have to put in the effort.
This is a very difficult "situation" for me..
How
"our participation" be required, when the participation itself is not because us, but God's Will ?
How
an athlete must always train and train, while actually there is no "must" but God's Will who put "the must" or "not must" ?
We can NEVER have an attitude or NOT trying - how possible someone is "trying" or "not trying" if God Himself Will this athlete to "trying or NOT trying" ?
As far as the prostitute? yes there is truth that the prostitute is fulfilling what God had foreordained to happen and what she should be, at least for a short while(we will not be sinners forever).
"for a short while"... what about if she died as a prostitute ?
From Ray's website, I learn that all human will not be sinner forever... it happen either maybe during someone still live or after he died. - doesn't matter much because whatever it is, she will not be sinner after the judgement ?
To be honest, on the contrary I can not think that God personally foreordained to happen that the woman should be a prostitute. But His LAW-cause&effect apply to her life (our life also).
But it does not mean that she can use that as an excuse, TO CONTINUE! NO, she can't.
But in the real world... she of course can say that as an excuse, right ? (applying because it's God's Will for her to say the excuse ?).
So all, each of our lives WILL include a time in deep sin of some sorts, it is necessary for our spiritual development to go through it. BUT THIS BRINGS UP AN OBLIGATION! THE OBLIGATION TO REPENT OF OUR WRONGDOING!
But how people is to oblige, if the obligation itself is God's Will to oblige or not to oblige ?
so that's why to escape from this IMO "difficult situation" battling in me, it's not God who personally Will - but
His LAW-cause&effect which "work" on the daily activities human life.
Would you please enlighten me :
Is it God whom personally "infiltrate" (do His Will) in every human daily activities ? Or is it His LAW that works ?
So why did you join this forum?
Did you come here expecting members to convince you to change your mind?
Were you hoping Ray would convince you?
If your not convinced, why join?
Because IMO, having a freewill is a good thing - so I joined the forum to know more about no-freewill.
You would only change your mind about it so members don't think your wrong?
That's not my main point, you will know by my subject-title : "is it important" ??
You spent a great deal of time to explain your beliefs of freewill. Why? Why here?
so the forum know what kind of "freewill" which is in my opinion. So my responder won't waste their time to describe what I already know.
You ask yourself what would change your mind.
Then I don;t need to join the forum, if I can find an answer by myself ...
we do have a will but we do not have "free" will.
It's much easier to understand if you remove 'free' from 'free-will'. Every choice we make has a cause.
Yes... I think I'm now starting to understand.. that what I call "freewill" is actually just the will ...
that it would be hard for you to understand how one can not believe in free will and yet still be accountable and feel the inner drive to obey and follow him, like one would do if you believed in free wills "accountability". Is that correct?.
Nop...
as mostly the one believe in freewill whom are "judged wrong" - so it's vice versa :
how one can believe in free will and yet still be accountable and feel the inner drive to obey and follow him, like one would do if you believed in NO free wills "accountability" ...
Your fear actually has some validity, studies have shown. Recent studies have shown that if you convince experimental subjects that they have no free will, that their actions are not of themselves, they are less inclined to help others and become more aggressive! So your anxiousness may be rooted in that, that you fear a temptation to become that way.
Actually it's not the "temptation to become that way" that I've been thinking of... but "how come God's Will infiltrates every single daily activities of human life".
IMHO He made His LAW-cause&effect, this LAW will work by itself based on the Will (I don't use "freewill" anymore now ...
He gave to every human.
In Adam&Eve case, IMHO He knew "it will happen" - but He didn't personally WILL influence Eve to be deceived.... on the contrary He did "warn/advice" (which I assume that this warning is to show He loves) not to eat the fruit, which indirectly telling that there is a LAW-cause&effect. Whether to eat or not is still AdamEve to decide... If I may say, somewhat like "let it happen"
About the potter and the clay.
I don't see in Jeremiah that the potter deliberately make the vessel spoil, while in Rome the potter seems deliberately make the vessel spoil.
How this contradict ?
Finally, thank you very much again to all my lovely responder.
I'm sorry if my respond is too long and please pardon my English.
best regards,
odading.