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Author Topic: WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER? . Nashville Conf 07  (Read 40414 times)

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 2007 Nashville Conference:
-post 1 at the top is (audio 6) 'THE UNIVERSE!'
-post 2  (audio 7A) 'WHO IS THE FATHER?'
-posts 3-4 (audio 7B) 'WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS?'
-posts 5-6 (audio 08) 'IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF JESUS.'
-posts 7-8 'last part of audio 1 and 2.'
-posts 9-10 'audio 3.'
-posts 11-12-13 (audio 4) 'WHERE DID JESUS COME FROM?'
-posts 14-15 (audio 5) 'ONE GOD!'

Audio no. 6, last half

                                                                            THE UNIVERSE!

The whole thing is as bizarre as it can be.
Think about space, if you took God away, what is left?
Is there anything out there left?
Is there space?
Is it dark?
Is it light?
What is it then?

We think if we take away the creation you have black, cold, space. Three things in space, itís black, dark and very cold, absolute zero and not a lot of room to do it in.  
Itís interesting that most scientists donít believe that space is eternal. They believe it came into existence with a big bang and time. Hence we have the space, time and matter continuum. All started at the same time.

So I say that God is perfect, thatís why He doesnít change now and Christ doesnít change. But did He ever? Because I have to answer a question. Where did God get patience?  

[Someone ask the question: where did He learn obedience?]
I think He learned obedience before He was born and reduced down to a man and so on and so forth.  
Left to His own we know what He could accomplish... nothing. He said so, ďI can of mine own self do nothing:Ē (John 5:30). Because He had the Spirit without measure, He could not sin. Now Christ had to sweat bullets to do it, but it was still God doing it.

God puts us in the same situation, we have to live our lives. You may say, well Iíll just kill myself. Not unless God wants you to, you canít kill yourself if God doesnít want you to. Everybody that ever killed themselves, it was after God said... okay, now you are going to kill yourself.  

He is in control of EVERTHING, through circumstances. He doesnít make anyone kill themselves against their will, no. But He puts them into situations where they canít tolerate life anymore and their own will becomes, I want to kill myself.

[Someone ask the question: Is that why Christ was always in prayer?]
Well yes, itís like the old saying; act like it all depends on you and pray like it all depends on God. Thatís the way you should live your life. He could not help but pray.  

What appears to be contradictions are not contradictions, when you have a higher spiritual understanding of what itís talking about. Let me show you a perfect example and it sounds like a contradiction, but itís not.

Phi 2:12  Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Doesnít that contradict this whole thing... weíre saved by grace and not of works? Now weíre to work out our own salvation? What is that? How do you explain that ďOf Myself I can do nothingĒ (John 5:30)? And He said "YOU can do nothing" (John 15:5), to the apostles. Then Paul says ďwork out your own salvation with fear and trembling.Ē Well it does sound like a contradiction. But read the next verse and He tells us why. "For" now that word always means Ďbecause' or itís another word for because.

Phi 2:13  For (because) it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Some of you probably still donít get the answer, but it is there. "Work out your own salvation," is not the gist of that saying. He is not saying, work out your own salvation, period. No, Heís saying ďwork out your own salvation with fear and trembling, thatís where the emphases is, on fear and trembling, not on working out your own salvation.  

You work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, why? Because it all depends on God! If God doesnít do it, it wonít happen, IT WONíT HAPPEN! So we live in fear and trepidation.

I cannot drive down the street, being the safest driver that I can be and know that I will avoid an accident, if God has already determined Iím going to have one. What it doesnít mean is you can drive down the road foolishly... or you donít need to wear a seat belt... or close your eyes for a while... or something like that. But you do have to act it out. Why? You have to, He makes you.  

He made you come out of your motherís womb and He made you cry. Not that He forced you, but circumstances, He brought about all the circumstances. He made you cry, makes you grow and makes you fight with your kid brother.  

You do all these things and people reach a place where they get tired of it. So we have plays like ĎStop the world I want to get off.í It's like Iíve had enough, Iím at the end of my rope and itís the end of the line. Well itís only the end of the line IF God has determined itís the end of the line.  
If say you came to that conclusion at 8:30, and He knows you wonít die until your 77 1/2, then you're not going to end it.  

Thatís where the fear and trepidation come in. It ALL depends on God, thereís nothing you can do. But YOU have to work it out. YOU have to get up and go to work. YOU have to do all this stuff.  

Then you say I donít want to anymore, well circumstances make you. So you think, Iíll just end it all... then your child comes up and says ĎMommie.í Now you say, oh my gosh I have a child, I canít kill myself Iíve got to live for my child. You see? So God makes you live this life. He makes you do all this, HE MAKES YOU DO IT. But not against your will. He puts you in circumstances and thatís the only way you can go. The ONLY way!

You think, 'I shouldnít have done this or that.' Thatís right you should think that way. You should think that... 'I shouldnít have done that,' because then you're learning. When you learn, you will then put that into practice. Because God doesnít have you learn things so you canít put them into practice, He has you learn things so you CAN put them into practice. But the only way you will learn them, is if you see how stupid it was, and you say if I had it to do over, I wouldnít have done that. So YOU HAD TO DO THEM! Because that lead to a lot of trouble and pain and sorrow  But did you learn your lesson? 'Well yea.' Then donít do it again okay, now their back on track.
But the whole human race does not comprehend that they do not have free-will. They have a will based on everything that everything makes them do. Thatís their 'free' will. When you think about this you can go crazy, because the whole thing is bizarre.

You think if this is what God wanted and He is eternal, why didnít He do it a zillion years ago? So this plays right into the hands of what I am talking about, but not completely, because we have this thing of eternity, which has no beginning. I mean if anything exists, something has to eternally exist. Thatís just it, at least as we understand the law of physics and so on. If you have nothing, you cannot from nothing have something. Something eternally must exist, because WE exist.
This (knocks on table) is here... Iím here... youíre here and we know weíre here and we know we did not eternally exist. Because you have a birthday, same day every year, so youíre here and canít deny it. So we know we werenít always here and as we study history and people study paleontology, anthology and all the other -ologys, nothing eternally existed. Then you get into quantum mechanics, astrology, astronomy and astrophysics and all those things. We find that nothing in itís present state, always existed.
So then we see all these galaxies out there and they are moving, and they're moving outward. Well if they are moving out, they must have been at one time 'in,' makes sense, right?  If they were 'in' this far back in history, then further back they must have been further in too. So if you keep backing up, just sheer logic would tell you that it all came together at one point.  

But now you got another quandary though. Since it comes together, so it was together at one time. Is that how it started out?  

The reason it came together, is because gravity drew it together. But it couldnít have always been that way, because then gravity couldnít have drawn it in, because it was never out. Oh well, maybe it was out and it drew it in, then it exploded out and then drew in. So what? Itís the same thing.
Modern man doesnít go back 50,00 years on this earth, of course not. So if you have the pulsating universe you solve the problem. So you got to go back to the first pulse  Where did that first matter come from? That first pulse? Your mind goes crazy. You say well itís just there and it got so tight, it just explodes. But wait a minute, how did it get tight?

Maybe it never came in, it only goes out. Because if it comes in and goes out thatís a two process thing, and we want to look for the original process. So if it didnít come in first to go out, then it only went out. So if it went out first, out from where? It was gravity that was drawing it in. Your mind canít handle it! There is nowhere to go with that!?  

Where did the blob that drew itself in and then exploded into the expanding universe, where did it come from? If it eternally existed, how could it eternally exist in a state that would allow for that? Itís drawn in so tight itís going to explode, so how can it eternally exist in a state that wonít tolerate that? You see what Iím saying? Well then where did it get that way? You see what Iím saying? Where did it get that way? You think well it was that way eternally. But it couldnít have been eternally that way. Because it canít function in that form, it would blow up. Well where did it come from? How did it blow up? Your brain canít take this any further!

Space is endless and you keep going and going. It just canít be. Do you come to a wall? Well whatís on the other side of the wall? Nothing? Thatís what space is?

So I say the whole thing is bizarre. And I say that in love and hopefully with a little wisdom. This whole creation is bizarre. God is doing like He said in Isaiah 28:21 ďa strange work.Ē

I want to be honest with what I know and what I learn. But I donít know where to find it. I read all these books and all this stuff and most of it is garbage, if you want to find answers. Now you can learn knowledge, but you wonít get any answers.
The religious people hate the scientist and the scientist despise religion. Yet a creation demands a creator and it demands a beginning. But how can you have a beginning, if there is not a starting point? Yet the scientist are forced to believe that it had a creation. It had to start, but from where? From out here or in here or where did it start? If it started there, how long was it there? You say, well it had to be eternal. Well it canít stay in that state, eternally, thatís why it blew up and moved out.  

Now do you know what they discovered about this? Well hereís the theories about whatís going to happen to the universe.  

1)  Some say it will expand indefinitely, just keeps on going forever.  

2)  Then some say it will just expand until everything is just so far away from everything that the gravitational pull is like nonexistent and it will just stagnant out there.  

3)  But still others say it will slow down and slow down, stagnate, come to a stop, and eventually, even though the gravitational pull is very very slow, it will very slowly start to bring it back. But of course as it comes back further and further and the bodies get closer and closer and gravity gets stronger and stronger, the bodies will move faster and faster and it will come crashing back in again and then explodes again!?

But they have discovered something recently. I donít know how they discovered it, they do this through the doppler effect and all that stuff.  

4)  But now the theory is, if it started in an explosion because it appears that everything is moving out. Itís moving out at millions of miles an hour, very fast. But if it started with an explosion and it is moving out, the initial thrust would send it out at a certain speed, right? Then logic would tell you it would have to slow down. Guess what they found out? That it is speeding up!? Where all the mass is centered some place, rather than pulling it back, it is pushing it out faster and faster. How do you square that with anything we know in physics?  

[comment: gravity has never been fully explained...]
Not fully explained... fully? I just read this someplace, this one scientist said there is not two astrophysicists in the world that can even begin to give us a logical explanation about how a childís magnet works. You say, 'they have not fully explained it.' They have no clue about gravity, not a clue.

[comment: the sun keeps the earth in the gravitational orbit, itís a balance so the planets wonít go flying off into space.]
Yes, but not completely. All of the planet bodies are needful of it, but if you pull Saturn out or if you pull out Mercury, eventually weíre going to die. They all balance this elliptical orbit and the speed and everything  So if you pull any one of the planets (well maybe not Pluto-laughter), but if you pull out Jupiter or Saturn or Neptune and you pull them out of the solar system, we will die.  

[comment: what would happen first, say if you pulled the sun out? Would it get dark first, what would happen first the gravitational pull or the lose of life?]  
Well either way, weíre gone.  

[comment: If the sun was pulled out, how soon would the gravitational pull take us out into the universe?]  
The gravitational pull to the outside is very slight. A scientist said in relation to astrology, as they say you are born under a certain star, it has to do with the gravitational pull on something. Well he said there is a thousand times more gravity exerted on the new born child by the physical body of the doctor, then the whole outer space combined. It was the doctorís physical mass holding the baby, that exerts a thousand times more gravitational pull on the baby, which is almost infinitesimally nothing. But still it is a thousand times more than the sun or any other body. Itís very very little.

Now you get the big orbit of the earth. You have that because there is no friction in space, strictly centrifugal force keeping it out there. Speed will keep it out there, but then you got this crazy orbit thing. If you had round orbits it would make sense, but you have an elliptical orbit.  

So if it flies by the sun and goes all the way out here and makes the swing and come back, why doesnít it come back and crash into the sun?  Well itís far enough out and the speed that it by-passes it, without that happening. But it needs all the other planets to do their thing. Theyíre all orbiting and doing their thing to the fraction of a thousandth of a second, it is perfect timing.

The earth is so finitely balanced with a thousand other things, if you move any one of them, weíre all dead!  

[comment: Just like God made it.]  
Just like God made it.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 12:01:14 PM by Kat »


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Re: Nashville Conference 2007
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2007, 02:05:41 AM »

audio 7A


When we hear of Elohim, El, or Jehovah Elohim, it is as much from the Father as it is Christ, because they are one.   

Jesus Christ is the spokesman for His Father. No matter what Christ says, He is the mouth piece for the Father. Heís not Charley McCarthy, Heís not a puppet, but He is the mouth piece for the Father, they are in agreement. I donít know if the proper phonetics and all that are given to Him by the Father and if He really has no latitude of His own. 

But in Spirit... the whole thing has to do with spirit and attitude, they are ONE! 

So it says in Acts 5:30 ďThe God of our fathers raised up Jesus.Ē But when we read in the OT ďthe God of our fathers,Ē it was Jesus. But what I want to show by that is the Scripture themselves gives us the latitude to recognize that no matter who the person is, whether it be the Father or the Son, itís always God. 

It is always God. Even Christ in His humiliation, in His physical form, where He was severely limited as a human being. It may say itís Jesus Christ speaking, but it doesnít matter if it says itís Jesus Christ speaking or the OT itís Jehovah speaking. We know if someone is speaking itís NOT the Father. Because He does not speak, except through the Son. 

So when Christ said, ďI have come to reveal the FatherĒ or in John 1:18 where John says Christ came to reveal or unfold the Father, it doesnít necessarily mean that now Christ is going to tell us all about the Father. Heís going to tell us how the Father communicates now and in the past. All we have to recognize is the Father communicates through the Son. 

So when Jesus Christ said, ďbefore Abraham was, I AmĒ they should have begun to realize... wait a minute are You saying that was You? You talked to Moses? 
Now we know that some of the apostles, got it for sure. Paul understood that spiritual Rock was Christ, that is who it was. 

Now at the last supper Philip did not know, he just didnít know. So He said ďhave I been with you so long, and you ask who the Father is, if you have seen Me you have seen the Father.Ē Then He went on in different places to say a number of things.

I and the Father are One.  (John 10:30)
I am in Him and He is in Me, We are One.  (John 17:21)
The Words I speak, I speak of the Father. (John 12:50)

Itís like, 'ooh, now I get it.' By the time of the crucifixion and the next day after the resurrection, even doubting Thomas, he only doubted that Jesus was raised from the dead. But once he knew it was Jesus and if you talked to him and said Thomas do you believe in God? He would say, 'yes, sure I believe in God.' Do you believe in the God of Abraham and Isaac? He was there at that last supper and he would have said, 'sure I do.' But did he really comprehend who that God was, that he thought he believed in?

Now that Christ was crucified and they thought, the jig is up. Then the apostles said 'Heís alive,' but Thomas said Iíll believe it when I see the holes in His body. So Jesus said to Thomas come here, put your hand in My side, see the holes in My hands. What was his reaction? He knew it was Jesus Christ and if Jesus Christ could come back from the dead, then everything that He ever said was true. Everything that Man said was true. Now itís ďMy Lord and My God.Ē Now Thomas not only acknowledged Him as the resurrected Jesus Christ, but if that Man came back from the dead, Heís also God.

God doesnít change. When you have perfect character, perfect love, as Christ and the Father say that they have, you donít change. There is no variableness of turning in God the Father and Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. Jehovah Elohim is the Lord God of Malachi 3:6, which is Jehovah Elohim and just as much God as Jehovah and ďI change not.Ē

Now He talked through that night about how He is in God and God is in Him. Then He starts to incorporate the disciples, now itís ďthose whom You have given Me.Ē Heís praying here in chapter 17 after He said, return to the glory I had with You before the foundation of the world. 

Then He says, ďthose who will believe in Me through their word, that they may all be one, just as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You have sent Me. The glory that You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one even as (in the same way, in like manner) We are one,Ē (John 17: 20-22).

We donít become mass hypnotized robots, but we become one in spirit, one in perfection and one in love. He goes on to say, ďthat they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You, that they also may be one in UsÖ.. that they may be one, even as We are one, I in them, and You in Me, that they may be made perfect in one;Ē (John 17:21-22)

These are some of the reasons, you will be hearing me say more, everything is one. It all comes down to one thing. There is one God and God is above everything there is. There is one God. 

So everything really is ONE. All the other little twos, threes and fours are really of no consequence, compared to the ONE, see. The One, the all.
So we read in Ephesians, Paul understood this, he didnít copy it from some other place, he understood it. 

Eph 4:1-3  ďI therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the calling with which you are called, with all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, forbearing one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the SpiritÖĒ

See ďthe unity of the SpiritĒ there is the key, we are one in and through SPIRIT. We are individuals, I have my personality, somebody else has their personality and some donít have a personality, you know. But weíre all individuals. But we can be all one in spirit, that is what binds us together as one, spirit. So ďendeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit.Ē 

Now the church is trying to create a unity. They want to get a united council of churches, they want to create a unity. But you canít create your own unity, there already is a unity. Now either you come into the unity or you donít. But you donít create a unity, because the unity is already there. Now if you are on the outside thatís your problem. You donít create some unity with somebody else, you donít bring two heretics together in unity. The unity is there and we have to endeavor to keep it and stay within it.

So then He says in verse 4, ďÖthe unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace (and harmony). There is one bodyÖĒ   The body of Christ. 

We are all part of the body of Christ and in Corinthians Paul likened us to different parts of the body. You know one might be an ear, one might be the mouth, one might be the hand and one the foot. Maybe we think the foot is not that comely a part of the body, but it is an very important part.  Because the foot carries the hand wherever it has to go to do itís thing. All are very important parts of the body. 

But there is only one body, one spirit. Even as you are called in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism. Thereís only one baptism that counts, thatís Christís baptism. Now if your not baptized into Christ, your water baptism is of no value whatsoever. But people want to do the physical, keeping the physical. They think well I have to keep the baptism and circumcision, and every year we have to wash one anotherís feet, and we take the Passover or communion, sometimes itís six times a year, sometimes itís twice a day, whatever. 

Paul says they love the letter, their little communion thing and their little wafer (such a cute little thing) and they take their communion cup and say bless you, bless you, bless you and send me money, money, money. You have to have an anointing cloth and the hands laid on you and rubbed with oil... You got to pay your tithe and keep the Holy Days... You canít wear mixed fabrics... The clean and unclean foods... You have to keep the Sabbath... You canít work from sunset to sunset... and it just goes on and on and on. You do all these things and you will be a holy person, it will just make your heart so wonderful. But what it does is it makes hypocrites and heretics out of people.

Itís only ONE baptism and thatís Jesus Christ. We are baptized into His death. You say I thought we were suppose to be baptized in water? No. We are baptized into His death, thatís the thing that counts. It is only one baptism, there is only one circumcision, you either get that one or you have none at all.

Col 2:10-11  And you are complete in Him, who is the Head of all principality and power, in whom also you are circumcised with the circumcision made without handsÖ

No skin, no hands, no knife, that's circumcision, okay. Continuing verse 11 ďÖ putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ.Ē That's what it represents, ďthe flesh by the circumcision of CHRIST!Ē That is the only way it counts. 

Col 2:12  buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from the dead.

Then you say, 'alright Ray there it is, we have to be baptized, canít you read it in context?' The circumcision is without hands, the baptism is without water. This is Christís circumcision, Christís baptism, Christ is the anointing, itís Christ, Christ, Christ, all of it.

If you donít see that, you are just spinning your wheels in physical rituals. You donít get any more obnoxious than holier than thou, seventh day Sabbath keepers and holy sacred name societies. Maybe itís a secret handshake, itís like you belong to the Masons and you get a secret handshake and your in, you see.
'Praise Shuah, praise Shuah,' ...ah, you're in now and you understand all truths? Itís total nonsense.

I get nasty letters from these sacred name societies.  (Hereís an example)

Ray, how can you say you teach the true of God, when you still talking about that pagan, Jesus Christ. Donít you know the name of Shuah, the name of the Father?

This one guy said, 'we are given the name of the Father, why do you use these pagan names and stuff. We are suppose to call upon the name of God.'  So I wrote back and said, what is the name of the Father? He didnít answer me. So I wrote back again and said, by what name did Jesus call the Father? Nothing. So I put an email on a Word program and every week I would send it to him... What name did Jesus Christ call His Father? You say Iím a lying, two-faced hypocrite, teaching paganism. I demand of you, what name did Jesus Christ call His Father. Zero, I never heard back from him. So I stopped sending the emails. 

I do that sometimes just for fun. I just let them know, YOU are a lying, two-faced hypocrite. You have no idea what you are talking about, and yet you will accuse somebody of being pagan. Give me a break.

I had a guy apologize this week though. I donít remember what I said, I remember my ending line to him was, 'and you're accusing me of lacking knowledge?' I had used his own quote, ďlacking knowledge.Ē He wrote me back and apologized and said, ďIím sorry, you're right.Ē I get about one a year like that. But it does my heart good.

One hope... one Lord... one faith... one baptism... one God... one Father of all... who is above all and through all and in all, thatís the ONE! You donít get more than that.  Itís all one, in one, at one, over one, through one, all in all, itís just one.

My thing now is after I teach the details of all this stuff, sheol, gehenna, hades and all the Lake of Fire stuff and all the stuff on prayers and all the many articles I have and so forth, then Iím going to start to bring it all together with one, see. Iíve already started doing that a little bit. But Iím going to do it in my next installment of Lake of Fire. The first caption is going to be ĎToo Many Words.í 

I like the movie ĎAmadeus.í Iíve watched it 12-14 times I guess. It is such a study on human nature. Itís just beautiful. It won the Academy Award for best picture, back in Ď82 or something. 

There is one scene in there where the Emperor had just listened to a private session with Amadeus, a new composition or something he had just wrote. So afterwards they came together.

The Emperor thanked him and said-- That was good, yes it was good, except I think... oh how should I say it, ah... too many notes.
Amadeus responds-- There are too many notes?
Emperor replies-- Yes too many notes, take a few of them out and it will be better.
Amadeus asks-- Which notes should I take out?
Emperor-- I donít know. Then looks around at his entourage and says am I not right in saying, too many notes?  They all agree, he is right, too many notes, oh yes your highness, there are too many notes.
Amadeus-- There are neither too many or too few, it is just right!

So anyway, Iím going to take off on this with ĎToo Many Words.Ē

When I was younger and I was reading the scripture. Especially when I would read the evening of the Passover, chapters 14-17. I would think there are just too many words. You know too many 'you' and 'to' and 'us' and 'together,' just too many words. Now I wish there were more. 

So I got to thinking about it and I want to cover words that are used in the Scripture that nobody has the foggiest idea what they mean. You just read right over them. Words like sanctification, propitiation, justification, reconciliation, reformation, what all these words mean. Thereís lots of them, repent, repentance, redemption, renewal, rebirth. There are about 20 of these words, like sanctification, reconciliation, justification, propitiation.
What in the world do those words mean?  So what I want to show you, is they all mean the same thing. I donít mean that they donít have a little different definition in the dictionary. But Iím saying from the scriptural prospective, there is one Lord, one baptism, one God, one hope, and one faith. Itís all one! When you understand it, itís all one. All those words are one thing. Iím going to try to bring that down, though Iíll have to do a little defining of words. Although they are different words, they are all the same.
Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, wrote it with parables.  Parables about leaven... fish... mustard trees... sowers of seeds... drag nets... building houses on the sand... rich men... the lost coin... and all these parables.  None of them mean what they say. Not a one means what it says, thatís why they are parables. What do they all mean? They all mean the same thing. All the parables are one parable. All the parables and all the redemption, renewal, reformation, conciliation, reconciliation, justification, propitiation they are all one word. All the words and all the parables are one.
Thatís what I want to start teaching, the simplicity. The simplicity that is in Christ Jesus. It all comes down to this one parable in the first chapter of Genesis. ďLet Us be making man in Our image.Ē One image. All these images, all these sinners, all these stupid ideas and vanities out there. You got to bring it all into one spiritual image. Everything is ONE. All heading for one goal, one destiny, one body, one God, one family.

I hope God will give me the ability to bring this off, as now weíre out there in a lot of different subjects.  Hopefully one day weíll start bringing it all together, simplifying.

Partly what Jesus Christ was doing when He was revealing the Father, was letting them know who He was. Before Abraham, ďI AmĒ that was Me. What? Yes that was Me. Not only was that Me, but here, Me, the Christ, the Savior, the Messiah in the flesh, this is the Father. Everything that I say is the Father. Everything that I do is the Father. Then they started to understand it and believe it. 

Thatís why Paul could say that there is one body, one spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God, one Father, of all, because he understood it, and they understood it too, at the end.  You can tell by their writing they were beginning to understand it. 

Peter makes an interesting statement.

2Peter 1:16  For we did not follow cunningly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
So they had a privilege we donít have. Remember what Christ said to Thomas.

John 20:29 Ö Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.

You felt the holes and you believed, and that is good, you know. They wonít see what you see, but they will believe. How can we believe? What gives us the ability to believe? Spirit! ďBy My SpiritĒ!! Everything is by His Spirit, you canít work these things out intellectually. 

Not so many any more, but a couple of years ago, there were several people saying to me; 'Okay Ray, you can level with me, where did you find all this stuff, what books?' One guy said and almost demanded all the books, manuscripts and references, where had I got this. Because he wanted to check it out for himself, to see if it is really what I say. So he wanted every place where I got this information, to check out the books and authors and so on.

There is no authors, there is no internet sites. I sit down at the computer and type, I donít even take notes first. I just sit down and type. But oh no it's, 'come on Ray, donít give me that nonsense, you can talk to me.' They want to know if I found some book written in the 1400ís, that nobody knows about and they want to see them. Well if you can find them, I want to see them too.

So we are not eye witnesses to these things. But we can believe them.
Another guy, some kind of atheist, said, 'Ray, why do you believe this? You canít seriously believe in one of these gods and this dead sea scrolls stuff. Surely you donít believe in one of those gods.' To the carnal intellect, they donít believe this stuff. I believe it. Though I think it is rather bizarre, itís very strange, but God says;

Isa 55:8  For My thoughts are not your thoughts...

I donít do it the way you do it, I say amen to that Lord.

« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 01:20:38 PM by Kat »


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Re: Nashville Conference 2007
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2007, 11:00:16 AM »

audio 7B


I want to show you something about this picture. Thatís a beautiful man isnít it. That is the best an artist could do. They put the nose, eyes and cheek bones, ultimate perfection in the male face is there, right. An absolute handsome dude.

Isaiah 53, from the Revised Standard Version;

Isa 53:1  Who has believed what we have heard? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? (and now there is a prophecy of the coming Messiah, here)
v. 2 For He grew up before Him like a young plant(tender plant in KJ), and like a root out of dry ground; He had no form of majesty that we should look at Him, and nothing in His appearance that we should desire Him.

For the moment I want to zero in on , ďHe had no form of majesty( KJ says comeliness)  that we should look at Him, and nothing in His appearance that we should desire Him.Ē

Now here is what it says, on this picture, Ďwho really was Jesus?í What? These people show me a picture like that and theyíre going to tell me about the real Jesus, get out of town. I donít have to hear a word they say.  Theyíre going to tell me about the real Jesus? This guy makes Tony Curtis look like an ugly slob.
[Question asked; who is Tony Curtis] Tony Curtis is the father of Jamie Lee Curtis and sheís not a slob either. Since my wife isnít here I can say this. I had a girlfriend once, she was a looker, southern belle from Georgia. One time she said to me, I donít know if Jamie Lee was on TV or what, but she said; Ray what do men see in her, seriously now. She thinks sheís sexy and nice and all that.í I said, well sheís not to bad to look at.  She said ĎI just donít see it.í But anyway thatís who Tony Curtis is, Jamie Leeís father.

A funny story is, one time I saw Harrison Ford, he is one of my favorite actors, and a movie I really love is ĎWitness.í  Iíve only seen it about 6 times. Somebody is interviewing Harrison Ford (who at the time was making 11-12 million for each film), and he was saying how he couldnít get a job. He tried out for a job and they said they didnít think he was that good or what ever. This casting director saw the TV that was on and there was a rerun of some movie with Tony Curtis in it. He was playing a bell hop, and he was saying his lines or something and the director said to Harrison Ford, now you look at that man there and you can see tell, thereís a movie star. Harrison Ford said, hmm, I thought he was suppose to be playing a bell hop. Which I thought was a pretty good come back. Because if you looked at him and said thereís a movie star, then heís not doing a good acting job, because heís suppose to be a bell hop.

The truth of the matter is Jesus Christ is not handsome at all. Now being the very Son of God and the creator of man and Iím assuming that Adam was about as handsome a man as ever was and I would suppose that Eve was as equal in every way on the feminine side.

But Jesus Christ was nie unto homely. Why? Heís the Son of God, isnít He suppose to exemplify God and power and majesty. Why would God make Him homely? Think about it, you donít see this is the movies, you never see a movie that comes close to who and what Christ was. 

I gave a Bible study one day and I went through showing a little bit about the ministry of Christ, to offset all the things we see in the movies, okay. 

And there followed Him great multitudesÖ (Mat 4:25)
And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, (Mat 5:1)
Now when Jesus saw great multitudes about HimÖ (Mat 8:18)
But when the multitudes knew it, they followed Him; (Luk 9:11)
And there were gathered unto Him great multitudesÖ (Mat 13:2)
And as these went their way, Jesus began to say unto the multitudesÖ (Mat 11:7)
But when Jesus knew it, He withdrew from there. And great multitudes followed Him, (Mat 12:15)
Now there went with Him great multitudes: (Luke 14:25)
All these things spake Jesus in parables unto the multitudes; (Mat 13:34)
And there came unto Him great multitudes Ö (Mat 15:30)
Send the multitudes away, (Mat 14:15)
Then He commanded the multitudes to sit downÖ.the disciples; and He blessed and broke and gave the loaves to the disciples gave to the multitudes. (Mat 14:19)

And you can just keep on going like this.  Now most of you didnít know it, but thatís the way Jesusí ministry was. Hundreds and thousands of people were pressing on Him all day every day. Now where did you ever see that in a movie? You see Him strolling down the dirt road, with His merry men.

Page after page after page the multitudes and multitudes. The reason He went out on the boat or up in the mountain, was always to get away from the multitudes. Did you ever see that in the movies? He just couldnít get out of the crowds, ever. Ever see a movie where Christ wasnĎt good looking? You can take every movie you ever saw about Jesus Christ and you can scrap that. Because you are already way off base to what the truth of Godís Word is.

So why was Christ nie unto homely? When it said no comeliness what-so-ever. Why though? To humble Him! Because Christ did something that we just donít always see. (Arenít you lucky you came to this Bible study, because Iím going to teach you some of these things, that you can get a better view of whatís going on here.) No comeliness what-so-ever. Nothing in His appearance that we should desire Him (Isa 53:2). So first of all, if you have this man that was not anything to look at, why did the crowds come? Because they loved Him? They wanted to get healed! Oh one other reason was the free meals, and I bet the fish He multiplied were really good. Like the best wine at the wedding, ďÖYou have kept the good wine until now!" (John 2:10)

There is nothing in His appearance that we should desire Him.
Isa 53:3  He was despised and rejected by others, a man of suffering  and acquainted with infirmity(sickness and disease);
What are you going to do with that? Jesus Christ was sickly? Yes. Diseased? Yes. Full of infirmaries? Yes. What was it like, can you imagine the extra strain it was on Him, to not be handsome at all. Knowing in His own heart and mind He was the Creator of the universe, and that He had splendor that would knock your eyes out. He canít say, well you should see how I use to be. You should see Me when I get that John Edwards $400 hair cut. You know I clean up pretty good.

Did you know that Jesus Christ Had brothers and sisters? ďFor even His brothers did not believe in Him.Ē (John 7:5)

We think that Christ was a Godly man and His mother loved Him and all that stuff. What did He say? ďAnd a man's foes shall be those of his own household.Ē(Mat 10:36)

So you say alright fine, so they didnít believe on Him, thatís not the end of the world. Well it goes a little deeper than that. I donít know why I never thought to teach on this before. I never taught on this, I donít know why I just didnít do it. But today I was to talk on Christ and I thought, well yea I need to talk about this.

Mark 3:20  Then He went home, and the crowd(multitude) gathered again, so that they could not even eat. (ESV)

Even when He went into the house the crowd pushed on Him and pressed on Him. Remember that one person wanting to get healed so badly, that they took the roof off. Because they couldnít get near Him. When He went home the crowds came and gathered against Him so, that they could not even eat.

Mark 3:21  And when His family heard it, they went out to restrain Him, for they were saying, "He is out of His mind." (ESV)

So His brothers didnít believe Him and people were saying the man is crazy, and nie unto homely and Heís sick and diseased. This is our Jesus?! You got to disdain Him or have a better feeling toward Him.

In Luke 4 you have heard this, but never understood, just never put it together.

Luke 4:21  And he began to say to them( He said listen, HeĎs talking to the multitude again and the Scribes and Pharisees), "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."
v. 22  And all spoke well of Him and marveled at the gracious words that were coming from his mouth.

Well yes. Because He wasnít much to look at, but boy when He talks. They said, how does this Man know all this stuff? I thought this was the carpenterís boy, how does a carpenters boy know all this? 

Luke 4:22 ÖAnd they said, "Is not this Joseph's Son?"
v. 23  And He said to them, "Doubtless you will quote to Me this proverb, 'Physician, heal Yourself.í

Did you get that? Doubtless He said, your going to say that to Me. Why? He healed people, right? But He was sick and diseased! So your going to say to Me, well if youíre the great Physician and You're healing all these people, surely you're going to say to Me, ďPhysician, heal Yourself.Ē

Christ had a burden to bare. He was nothing to look at though, sickly and diseased, ďa tender shoot out of dry groundĒ (Isa 53:2), sick, diseased with infirmaries.

Now it says in Isa 53:3, ďHe is despised and rejected by others, a Man of suffering (Heb.-pain).Ē Because when we say suffering, right away we think of some spiritual thing. You know He suffered persecution and things of that nature. Itís still suffering, but the word is pain. Why was He in pain? Because He had infirmaries. Is this a different Jesus than you have been thinking about? 

Isa 53:3 ď...and as One from whom men hide their facesÖĒ  thatís not what it says in the Hebrew, it should say  ďAs One who hides His face,Ē Imagine the Son of God, Creator of the universe and in a body thatís uncomely, diseased, infirmaries and pain. Itís like when you go through a crowd, you donít want to call attention to yourself, because thereís nothing here to see, you know. 

Isa 53:3 ÖHe was despised, and we held Him of no account.  V. 4 Öand carried our diseases;
Do you understand where this says He was tempted in all ways as we, yet without sin (Heb 4:15). We think once in a while a pretty girl passed Him, He had to say, well Iíll look the other way. No! This is a whole lot more real than that.
He carried our diseases, oh. They will say, no He went to the cross for our diseases. No, He carried them in His body. Now is where they say, God just really beat the living day lights out of Him? That we count Him stricken down and afflicted? Who would say that?! It says WE. It doesnít say God struck Him down. That is blaspheme. WE accounted Him stricken down and afflicted, we thatís a people. When they saw Him, they said 'this Man is being cursed of God, look at the pathetic thing. God is cursing this man bad, I wonder what He did wrong.'  And then He would heal the people. 

I mean it wasnít the first time where He said, I know your all looking at Me saying, ďheal Yourself Physician.Ē  That must have come up many times, you know. Itís not in the Bible though it says;

John 21:25  Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

I mean how many hundreds of times did someone say, Lord youíve healed me, Iím whole, why doesnít God heal You? He would say thatís not My job to be healed and walk around whole and handsome, fortified and all that. He came to carry your diseases. I heal you, but I carry them in My body. WE account Him stricken down by God and afflicted, because thatís what you would conclude and thatís what people would look at.

Look at me Iíve got bad feet and ankles, horrible knees, diabetes, sleep apnea, heart murmur, high blood pressure and a huge blood clot on the brain. People would say, Ray why is God cursing you like that.

« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 01:31:48 PM by Kat »


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Re: Nashville Conference 2007
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2007, 11:00:51 AM »

                                                                                page 2 'who and what'

Isa 53:5  ĎBut He was wounded for our transgressions, crushed for our iniquities; upon Him was the punishment that made us whole, and by His bruises we are healed.
Isa 53:6  All we like sheep have gone astray; we have all turned to our own way, and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.Ē

So not only did He have to carry all of our sins and shortcomings and everything else to the cross. But all His life He carried the pain, the sickness, the disease and the infirmaries in His body. Why? Because God is not going to put us through something that He is not willing to go through Himself! Thatís why we follow in His footsteps, see. Now you have to understand in the same way that God spoke through Christ, every time He opened His mouth and God healed people, every time Christ said stand up or walk or whatever, the Father was doing it!  In the same way, the Father is suffering through His Son.
Do you not suffer when your children suffer? Would you not trade places with them when they hurt and when they cry? Doesnít it hurt you more than them, right? 

This one little boy, his Dad said now son this is going to hurt me more than you. The boy said, well Dad hit yourself then. But really itís more painful for the parent to see a child suffer, then it is for the kid to suffer I think. Because we see their youthfulness, their weakness, their innocent and we say, just give it to me Lord. Just give me their suffering.

So God was suffering through His Son. What is this all about? Is this more of this bizarre stuff? What is this all about? Here is the Son of Man, all filled with diseases, sicknesses, infirmaries and all of that. He put the iniquities of us all on Him.

Isa 53:7  ďHe was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He did not open His mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so He did not open His mouth.Ē

Now it is coming down to His crucifixion. First we start out we a tender shoot, you see.

Isa 53:8  By a perversion of justice he was taken away. Who could have imagined His future? For He was cut off from the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people.
Isa 53:9  They made His grave with the wicked and His tomb with the rich,  although He had done no violence, and there was no deceit in His mouth.
Isa 53:10  Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush Him with pain.  When You(the Lord) make His life an Offering for sin,

So why all this stuff? Why couldnít Jesus Christ have been this gorgeous, handsome looking young man? Why was He somebody who was on the verge of ugly, diseased, and sick, bent over in pain and misery? FOR US!
I donít think the church gets it. I donít think Christianity knows whatís going on.
Did Jesus Christ have to do this? NO. 
Did the Father have to take Christ to the cross? NO. 

But you say, without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin and we all sin. HE made the rules! He didnít have to make that rule, that His Son had to die. But why did He make those dumb rules?  He makes the rules, right? Here is where I see that, letís see if we agree, if we are all of the same spirit.

God is a certain way. I donít know if He was always that way. I just know He always will be that way now. I donít know what God went through, and some people will call me a heretic for that, but I really donít care, itís just something I feel in my spirit. That God knows evil and good, first hand, some how. His Son was not the first to suffer evil, I believe that happened, some how. Now you will say, how? Where? Well He had a knowledge of good and evil before there was a creation, He had that. Where did He get it? He got it from somewhere. 

Now there is nothing like God in the universe. There is nothing that God has made, that is anything like God in the universe. God obviously (because He said so), uses the phrase, ĎHe has a desire unto the work of His handĒ (Job 14:15). "He has a desire," now that is scriptural. God has desires. He has what the KJ calls pleasures, goals, things that He wants to accomplish. He wants these things, you canít scripturally deny that. God made everything for Himself. But He is not a selfish God, because there is part of the creation that involves angels and humanity. 

Now He doesnĎt want to make puppets. ItĎs, 'oh Ray weĎre just a bunch of puppets according to you.' He doesnít want puppets or little play things. Like I have kitties, I love my kitties. They are fun and cute and wonderful. They each have their own personality, I understand them. Sometimes they even get excited about me, but not too often. You all know you donít call a cat and they come, they donít do that. But sometimes my favorite cat, which is a Mingcoon cat, long hair, big bushy tail. Sometimes Iíll go to the window and Iíll say, Stumpy, Stumpy and he jumps right up on the window and I pet him through the screen. To me that is worth a million dollars, I just love that cat.

But God wants more than just a little toy or kitten or whatever. He wants creatures that are very intelligent and that think three dimensional, subjectively. Who can appreciate the beauty, harmony and music and so many things that the human psyche is capable of. But He wants these creatures to be like Him.
Now you can say whatever You want, you might not approve of what God is doing or how Heís doing it. I mean I have thought already, as most of you will, sometime in your life, if you ever think deeply about these things. Surely this could have been done in a better way. But thatís why God says, My ways are not your ways, I donít think like you and you donít think like Me and not by just a little bit.

Isa 55:9  ďFor as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.Ē

Thatís how far apart our thinking is. But I want to bring this together. The way Heís doing this is youíve got to go through a living hell on this earth. Itís the only way, itís Godís way.

Whatever is, is not because man screwed up and through his free-will, he thwarted this beautiful garden of Eden, and all such stupid nonsense. Like I heard Hagee and Copeland chit chat about a few days ago. How wonderful their walk with God is, perfect harmony, they were the very image of God (they went through the whole thing, nonsense) that people who are in the spiritual image of God do not sin.

They sinned, quickly and easily, you know.
So what IS... thatís whatís suppose to be. Right here and now, this is what God wants. Why? Apparently this is the best way for Him to get what He wants, out of us. To go through this, is the best way!  Itís not only the best way, itís the best of the best ways. 

You know I think about so many things in my life. I look at a tree and I say itís beautiful. But if I were God I would have it symmetrical, every leaf would be exactly geometrically perfect. Everything would be that way, perfect.  Everything would be in cubes and orbs and rectangles, in perfect sizes and every facet perfect. But we all know that would be rather boring, wouldnít it. But then snarled bushes and weeds and stuff and we pull those out and burn them. Somewhere in between there, thatís where we need to be.

I had this hedge and almost pulled them out. There was 3 or 4 different kinds and colors intertwined, some were rotted, just a mess. I chopped the heck out of them and ended up with 3. They werenít hedges, they didnít come to the ground, they were like trees. So I trimmed them all at the bottom and some of them went off to one side, so I trimmed the top flat, so they looked like those trees in the African savanna and they looked pretty good. They were ugly, I would have cut them down, but the roots were so, I would have taken a farm tractor to pull them out. So I trimmed them and they looked awkward, like those trees on the plains Africa.
So not everything has to be geometrically perfect and precise, to be pretty. Our faces are not that way. Itís interesting you take the most beautiful or handsome person in the world and you duplicate one side twice and flip it over. So your whole face is exactly like the right side of your face and do the same with the left side, both sides. Guess what? Youíve never seen this? It will scare you. One side is when you duplicate it and flip it over, you look handsome or pretty. The other side you look ugly or mean or nasty or something. Everybody. Well you look at it now and say it looks the same on both sides. But not when you duplicate it, itís a whole new person and itís not pretty. What did that have to do with todayís lesson? I thought it fit there someplace.

So this is the best that God can do, but itís not pretty and itís not fancy and itís not always happy. Itís painful and sad and much of our lives are misery, you know, laughing on the outside and crying on the inside. Itís not always happy happy happy, but itís necessary. Is it right, that God should put us through something like that?

We have no say about it, we didnít ask to be born and we didnít ask to get lung cancer or whatever. We didnít ask for this, God puts us through it. Is it fair for Him to do that? Why is it fair? Well there is something good in store. But is it necessary that we would have to go through all of this bad first? Itís true, you have to have the contrast. But sometimes I just say, Lord I think Iím at the place now, Lord I think Iím there. You can take away the bad and see if Iím not thankful. 

He sent Jesus Christ to go through the same stuff we go through and thatís why I wanted to bring these out today. Because most of you never knew that, Jesus Christ lived a pretty painful life. Paul lived a pretty painful life, he said I learned to be content in all things. God put His Son through what we have to go through, because He loves us! He didnít have to.

Jesus Christ did something between His creation and the creation of the earth. He did something to acquire Godís glory, something. Because He had it and He didnít get it for nothing.
God wants creatures, He wants children, He wants sons and daughters. He has a desire to have something like Himself. But for us to be like Him, we have to go through some pretty tough stuff. So He sent His Son as an example, as how you can go through it and never get angry or upset with God. To never turn against your fellowman, because of what you have to go through. He lived a perfect life, of the perfect man, sick and diseased, in pain and He lived it perfectly. But God was living in Him, the Father was going through it just as much as He was, you see. 

Christ had to die, it said He had to die for our sins. Thatís true, thatís the scripture, Christ died for our sin. But then we have a scripture here that doesnít mention sin.

John 3:16  "For God so(thus) loved the world,Ē

Thus or in the manner, a lot of people think itís saying He loved us so much, but that is not what this is saying. What this is saying is God loved us, in this way. This is the manner and way in which He loved us. In this way He loved the world.

ďÖthat He gave His only begotten Son,Ē

He died, they killed Him on the cross, He died.

ďÖthat whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.Ē

Of course the Bible is written so man doesnít understand it. Thatís why some of these things are put in there, ďthat who-so-ever believes.Ē God knows and now we know, everybody is going to believe. So the Ďwho-so-everí is going to be everybody. 

But He gave His Son, now hereís the point I want to make and that is this, why did Christ have to die? Why? Why did the Father sacrifice His Son? Why did He have to do that? HE DIDNíT HAVE TO DO THAT! He didnít have to do anything, HEíS GOD! Why DID He? Because whether you recognize it now or later in life or those in the resurrection to judgment or for the rest of eternity, we are going to know it for sure. That God died for us for no other reason than to show us that HE LOVES US! He did not have to die. He said, I will do it to show them.  How can I show them that what I am putting them through has real value? What can I do? I can promise them the world, I can give them mansions and youth and joyful life. I have all that to give, but they will say, you are only giving out of your abundance, of what you have. What can I really do, that you will know that I really love you? God said, I will DIE!
But God canít die, Heís eternal, He has immortality, deathlessness. If you have immortality you canít die. So He made a Son. He made Him great. To show us how great He was, He said, let Me show you what I can do when I make a Son. Create the universe first, now become a man, and now die. 
Then they will know We love them. 
Then they will know.

« Last Edit: January 27, 2012, 02:42:55 AM by Kat »


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Re: Nashville Conference 2007
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2007, 07:07:38 PM »

Audio 8
In The Footsteps of Jesus

I said a little bit the other day, about how we have these little poems and things, about how life is. 

"Life is but a poor actor, who struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more."
"A tale as told full of sound and fury signifying nothing."
"We all live lives of quit desperation." 
"Life is a bitch and then you die."

These are philosophies that people have when they live a miserable life. 
And we sing songs about it, 
ĎWhatís it all about Alfie,í
Or Peggy Leeís, ĎIs that all there is.í
Is that all there is to life? Is that the best they got to offer? 

Well if you are human you have problems. So I donít care if you are born into royalty and you donít need to worry about earning a living or any of that stuff. You are catered to and servants and everything else. You still have problems, you still get sick, and have frustrations, you still have romantic heartaches and break ups, you still have all that stuff. You still have fears, and you still know you are going to die. So the things that you have, that other people covenant, you donít even see the value in it, because you always had it. So your not any more happy, with it. 

Which just proves this whole thing. If you donít suffer evil, you donít know good. If you do without for a long time and then you get something, then you say, wow, I really appreciate this. This is good, Iím thankful for this. Not that youíre never thankful, in the pass. But you are especially thankful, you know. 

If somebody is out on a raft in the ocean or somebody is out in the desert and they think they are finished and they are going to die. When they go their last 100 feet and they look up and thereís a farm house and water. I mean, wow. What a marvelous feeling. Yet you are not going to have anything better than that poor dirt farmer has. But boy, are you thankful for it, you see. 

But it just doesnít matter, whatever our lot in life is we always want to change it. We want new clothing, a new hair style, to work out at the gym and look different. We want to get a different car or apartment or job. We want a different husband or wife, and why? Because we are not really happy with what we have. Maybe we say Iím fairly happy, but I could be happier if I can get rid of that women of mine. I could run off with that school mate, that lost her husband and I think we could get along pretty good.

Paul sets a good example for us in Philippians 4. Here is really the answer to it. He is talking to them about being without and so on. He thanked the Philippians because he said they came to his rescue, twice in fact, when he needed help. But none of the other churches helped him out. They did help him out and he was very thankful for that. 

Here is what he said in Phil. 4:11, ďNot that I speak in respect of want: for I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therein to be content.Ē That word Ďcontentí in Strongís means self complacent, contented to a fault (you know you say, he is giving and loving so much that people take advantage of him, that sort of thing) eager to please, cheerfully obliging. So he learned to have that. Of course it is a really a gift of God, but he certainly put forth the effort and that became his philosophy of life. If he fell among robbers or if he had a hard winter and he was cold, he didnít always have a place to stay warm, you know. He would be, itís alright, God will see me through it alright. 

I know if you are as human as I am, that you have these feeling of inadequacy and some of you have other feelings, that I donít have any more. Some of you feel spiritually inadequate and you wonder whether or not you are going to make it. You wonder if you are the called or the chosen. You think, Ďif Iím only called, how do I become chosen. Is God pleased with me? Seems if He was pleased with me I would have more answers to my prayers and things would be going better for me. Iíd have a better job, finances wouldnít be such a problem, my wife wouldnít be such a problem, kids wouldnít be such a problem and my neighbors wouldnít be such a problem. I wouldnít have such a problem with my heating and air conditioning and my car. If God really was for me, some of these things would run a little smoother, I think. I donít think God is too pleased with me.í

Some of you have secret sins. When I say that, those of you that have them, itís like a little chill just went up your back. You think, does Ray know? I donít care. Donít tell me your sins, no I really donít care. But not that I donít care about you or for you, I donít care about your sins. They are all the same, you donít have one original sin in your body. Your just all copy cats, all of you. 

But itís not pleasant to feel inadequate. Itís not pleasant to wonder why youíre not up to snuff. Are you up to snuff? Can you be up to snuff? You might think, ĎI use to be up to snuff, I was doing pretty good, but then I back slide.í Just condemning yourself. You already have people that think you are nuts. Because you follow a Ďcultí you know. They say, ĎRay is a cult.í Lots and lots of things. Alright we are going to talk a little bit about this stuff, okay. 

Iím not trying to give you all a better self image, by puffing up your ego or something. Thatís the last thing on Godís earth you need, a great ego. Not that a good self image is an ungodly thing. It depends where that confidence is that gives you a good self image. You see what I am saying? If I have a good self image, why donít you have a good self image? Because I have confidence in Jesus Christ in me. Because Iíve felt like some of you feel, or some of you felt a little while ago, or you may feel tomorrow or next week. I mean Iíve thought all that. Sometimes I just say, well Iíll just come up in the resurrection to judgment and thatís just the way it will be, you know. 

But there are some things that you can do and think about, to give yourself certain peace of mind and security. That we really should have. Iím sure, not all of you have it. Some of you grasp at learning more than others. You think, ĎIíve got to learn more about life and Iíve got to learn this stuff Ray is teaching. If I could just learn all this stuff. Iíve got to learn, learn, learn. Iíll get it down and Iíll be there, Iíve just got to learn.í 

Now some of you may not be meant to learn a lot of stuff. What I mean, some people are just not good learners. Itís not necessary that you learn all this stuff, you know. I give you all this teaching and all these scripture and all these explanations and so on and you canít remember it all. That alright. Did you get anything out of it? ĎWell yea, I know what Iím saying.' That's good, your getting something out of it. You got a feeling, youíve got a sense of appreciation, you got a sense of ĎI like God better now.í You donít think God thinks, youíre as bad as you think you are, sometimes. Whatever goodness you get out of it, hang on to that. Donít worry about all the technical details. I think that Paul sensed that people felt that way. He certainly wanted to encourage them.
To me the 8th chapter of the book of Romans is one of the most profound chapters in the whole Bible. Itís just so much stuff in there, and good and profound stuff, marvelous stuff. Romans 8 read it often. 

If you are sitting here and you put forth the effort to get here, driving a car, filling up the tank, packing your clothes or buying an airline ticket. You got to know that God is drawing you to something. Youíve got to know that, donít you? 

If you are saying, 'I believe in this not so handsome Jesus'... but who was diseased and bent over with pain and suffering. Where everybody said, Ďwhy donít you heal yourself.í If you are saying, I can see where God would do that, so that we can sense that I can be unattractive, and fat and diseased and I donít need to hang my head. The very Son of God lived that way!
So you say, Ďokay, Iím going to believe this Jesus Christ.í He could have been handsome, strong and powerful and looked like Charles Atlas and all the movie stars combined. He could have, you know, but it wouldnít have been good for His vanity, His human nature, you see. God would rather have taken Him the way He was, humble, because He had nothing to be vain about. But He had plenty to be vain about, as homely as He was, He still walked on water and raised the death! That could become a little point of vanity, if He let it.
But you say, Ďokay I want to believe in this Jesus Christ. I like the idea that God would be willing to figure out a way, that He could die for His creation.í The only way He could do it, since He is God, eternal, and immortal, He did it through the most precious thing He had... HIS SON! ĎI will prove to them, maybe they donít get it now, but one day, maybe in the kingdom theyíll all know, that Me, the God of the creation, the God of the universe, I died for you. I didnít have to, I did it to show you I love you.í

ĎWell if you really love me God, why donít you die for me?í He says, Ďokay, Iíll do it.í I mean what else can He have done? What else could God do to show us that He loves us? He said, ĎI'll die for you, I donít have to, Iíll just volunteer. I will die for you, will that show you!?í You say, Ďokay, thatís pretty good.í Christ said, ďGreater love has no man than thisÖĒ 

Weíre not talking about a man throwing himself on a hand grenade to save his buddies. Weíre taking about somebody who pulls the hand grenade when there is nobody to save. ĎIím just going to kill myself.í Why? ĎTo show you that I love you.' Wow, why would you do that? 'Because I want you to know, no other reason.í  Wow, thatís insane, who would do that? God, the One who does strange things, ďA strange work He has on this earth.Ē

Now so you accept this Christ, you say, Ďalright He said to believe and I believe. Maybe I donít believe as good as I could or should, but I believe. Iím going that way... youíre the Man, Jesus.í 

ďThere is no more condemnation for those in Jesus ChristĒ (Rom. 8:1).

Now thatís where you are. Except there is one escape clause. Paul said, unless you are faking it, unless you are just a total fraud. But if you do believe in Jesus, if you do in your heart say 'yes, I do,' in your heart you really do. Then this is your lot in life, there is therefore no condemnation in them which are in Christ Jesus! NONE!

« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 01:39:44 PM by Kat »


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Re: Nashville Conference 2007
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2007, 07:08:32 PM »

                                                                                       page 2 'Footsteps'

ĎWell surely some of the sins.Ď None. ĎBut Iím not as good as you are Ray.í None, there is no condemnation in you. This idea that God beats you to death with His wrath and anger and indignation until the day you die, is Satanic heresy. ďÖno condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.Ē NONE!  

Rom 8:4  Öwho walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

ĎOh Ray, now you blew it, you see I still do walk after the flesh sometimes.í But where do you want to walk? ĎWell I want to walk after the spirit.í Well, youíre back in.

Rom 8:2  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.
v. 3  For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:  
v. 4  that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
v. 5  For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh;

Now if you find yourself minding the things of the flesh, you need to pray to God and cry out to help you and save you from that situation. You say this is not me, God, I donít want to go here. I donít want to do this, but my flesh is pulling me and I war, I need help, I need reinforcements. You cry out to God and that humbles you. Because you see that you canít do it. If you could do it, then you would become self sufficient, and you wouldnít need God. He will always Make you dependant on Him.

Jesus always prayed. Why? Heís the Son of God! What did He need to pray for? Because He knew, if the Father didnít do it, then it wouldnít be done. Itís as simple as that.  

Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be Spiritually minded is life and peace:
v. 7  because the carnal is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:Ē
v.8  ďand they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

So those that are in the flesh, they can not please God.

Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
v. 10  And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the spirit is life because of righteousness.
v. 11  But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall also quicken(or bring to life) your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwells in you.
v. 18  For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
v. 21  Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.

This is the Word of God. He put us in these bodies that want to sin and follow after lustful, stupid, sensual, fun, fuzzy things. But if in your heart and mind you donít want that anymore, not that you donít want, but you donít want to want it. So you cry out to God and say, ĎI donít want to want it.í Then God is your Father, Heíll come to your rescue. Just like any Father would come to any childís rescue, when he cries out to him.

Rom 8:26  Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we oughtÖ

Or as according to what must be, you know. What is absolutely what is Godís plan, that can not be deviated from. We donít always know what that is. But Godís spirit helps us to pray, so we will pray in accordance with what needs to be Godís plan and Godís will/purpose fulfilled in us.  

Rom 8:27  and He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because He maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
v. 28  And we know that all things work together for the good to them that love God,  to them that are called according to His purpose.

In verse 28 it should read God works all things together.

Rom 8:30  Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, the He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified.

Now we are coming back to the same thing from verse one.

Rom 8:31  What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
Well, is God for us? Well yea, Heís for those Heís calling according to His purpose and plan. But, I donít know if everyone sitting in here is in that category. But Iíll tell you what, if you are not in that category, youíre probably not to concerned about it. Thatís what I tell everybody.  

I get these emails all the time, about once every week or 10 days, it seems like. I donít send these all to the forum, because it gets so redundant. People think they have commented the unpardonable sin and it is woe-is-me. I get this, Ďreally Ray I think I did, I mean I didnít want to, but I think I did.í ĎI think I blasphemed the Holy Spirit.í I say, if youíre worried about it, then you didnít. I can tell you with the authority of Jesus Christ, that if you are worried about it, you didnít. Because if you did, you wouldnít be worried about it. People that blaspheme the Holy Spirit of God are not worried about it, not at all.
I mean with all my heart and being, I said to my brother. I said Satan has got you by the throat. He said, 'ha ha ha, I donít think so.' I mean my heart just went, phoom. When you are nonchalant, youíre probably not where you should be. If you are concerned, ĎI donít know if Iím doing everything I should be or I need to do.í  ĎI want to please God.í If you are in that attitude, well then for sure you have not blasphemed the Holy Spirit of God! You would not have that attitude of concern and wanting to please God, if you were blaspheming the spirit of God. So get that out of your head. If you are concerned for what God thinks of you and whether you are living right, if you are concern about that, then get it out of your head, you have not commented the unpardonable sin. That can only be rectified in judgment. You have not. Your not there, so donít worry about that. It doesnít mean you donít have sin. It doesnít mean you donít have things that need to be straightened up. But for sure you did not blaspheme the Holy Spirit of God.  

Rom 8:31  ÖIf God is for us, who is against us?
v. 33  Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect?

This idea that God is pouring out His wrath upon us, because Heís angry at us. NO! No, God is not angry with those He is calling to be His sons and daughters. His anger is towards those who hate God and despise His Word, and He is going to bring severe judgment upon. He doesnít hate or is angry with His elect! So get that out of your head. I hear, Ďwell, I think God is not very pleased with me.í Get it out of your head.

Rom 8:32  He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not also with Him freely give us all things?
v. 33  Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth;
v. 34  who is he that condemneth? It is Christ Jesus that died, yea rather, that was raised from the dead, who is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Christ is like a High Priest that makes intercession for us, because He lived in the flesh.
He knows exactly how it is and He makes intercession for us.

Rom 8:35  Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation (no), or anguish(no), or persecution(no), or famine(no), or nakedness(no), or peril(no), or sword(no)?
v. 36  ďEven as it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; We were accounted as sheep for the slaughter.Ē
v. 37  Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.
v. 38  ďFor I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
v. 39  nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.Ē

Not one, itís the love of God in Jesus to and for us. So donít be condemning yourself. Youíre on your way to living in the Kingís house and the Kingís palace. You know youíre on your road to royalty, heavenly royalty and God is called you to that. So donít feel, Ďoh woe-is-me, Iím not up to it, Iím not pleasing God, Iím not perfect.í None of us do it right all the time. But where is your heart? What do you do most of the time? Do you talk to God?  Are you always on top of your game, so to speak? What do you think about, all day long? As a man thinkest, so is he. You are what you think about. You think about good things, you become a good person. You think about ways to love your wife, husband, children or whatever, then you do those things for your brothers, sisters, fellowman, people at work, whatever.
You donít need to go overboard and pretend to be this super Christian. Where it almost becomes obscene. Where everybody says look how phony he is. Make it real! You can do the right thing behind the scenes. So many people wonít even recognize that youíre always doing the right thing, because it is not something you have to parade. You donít have to parade it or wave a banner. Just do the right thing. Do it because Godís watching, not because people or watching.

« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 11:38:24 AM by Kat »


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Re: Nashville Conference 2007
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2007, 05:57:29 PM »

This is the end of audio 1 and audio 2.

You may recognize this from our site, the Sombrero galaxy.

Now I want to expand our minds a little bit. If God made us, He also made the universe. This is a direct parallel, it's not like if He made us, then something or somebody else made the universe. No, He made it all. If we really could begin to think in larger terms about God. You got to get this junk out of your head. God is not an old man who sits on a throne, like Abraham Lincoln in the Lincoln Memorial. That is not God. God does not sit on a throne, that's a symbol of power and sovereignty. He does not sit because He is tired of standing. You have got to get all physical concepts out of your head about God. 
But that doesnít mean that what He has made, doesnít have some spiritual counter parts. Weíll just talk a little bit about some of these things today, to spark your interest a little bit. But this stuff is awesome. 

This galaxy right here, looks like this when you get farther away. It looks like this one down here, see that little one, you canít see it in the back of the room. 

How big is that? When you step back in space, itís a little tiny speck. If you get back a little farther, you canít even see the speck. So letís say we backed up a few light years away and now itís only this big. How long would it take you to go, all the way from this side to that side? Alright if you were to travel in a spaceship at 700 million miles an hour, it would take 100,000 years.

You could probably put in one star (because our star is called a yellow dwarf) a 1000 of our sun into some stars. Our sun is thousands of times bigger than the earth. How many of you have ever walked around the earth? Even that earth, to us, is pretty big. Itís a long walk from here to Oregon, right Joe. You are not going to make that walk in one pair of shoes.
God made that galaxy and a billion more, that we know of. This farthest light, they say is about 15 billion light years away, that is traveling 700 million miles an hour, for 15 billion years. WHAT! What are they talking about? These are awesome figures. How much is that compared to space. They say space has no end. How can it not have an end?! Everything has a beginning and end. How can it not have an end?  How can something go on forever? You canít conceive of that, the human brain bulks at it, you just canít. Itís the sort of thing you can only think of about 5, 6 or 7 seconds, then you stop. Because your brain shuts down, you canít conceive of it. You canít conceive of eternity. 

Like Iíve said, thereís not a Christian thatís meditated, on being tortured in hell, for more than 6 seconds. If anybody tells me they have meditated on being actually tortured in hell for a minute, Iíll call him a liar to his face. Iím not saying you didnít think about the subject of hell for a minute or hours or days or even most of your life. Iím talking about the eternity of being tortured endlessly, torturedÖ torturedÖ tortured, never ever ending for billions and trillions of years. They thought about that for 60 seconds? No way. Your brain shuts down. So you got to get this junk out of your head. 

Now we are going to talk about the Creator of this galaxy, the Milky Way and a billion more. It wasnít an old man stroking His beard, wondering where it all went wrong.

They call it that, because if you're out there, on a clear night, on a mountain top in Idaho or someplace, it looks like that, milky, it has just millions of stars. Okay, it the same thing here. If you traveled from this side of the galaxy to here, at 700 million miles an hour it would take you 100,000 years. These things are enormous. 

Iím going to open up this possibility, Iím not going to start teaching evolution here, but I felt for most of my adult life. That the 6 creation days, were not 24 hour days. I know I left it that way on my site, because I didnít want to get into logger heads with some people, since I could not absolutely prove it. I just said alright Iíll just go along with 6 days. If the Bible says 6 days, itís 6 days. I didnít tell them how long I thought those 6 days were.
They feel that evening and morning, sun rise to sun set, Ďthatís a 24 hour day, Ray, how hard can it get?í But it didnít say sun rise and sun set. It said it came to be morning and it came to be evening, and then it says, second day, third day, forth day, but it doesnĎt start off that way. What did it mean, when it says it came to be evening and it came to be morning, day one, then it was the second, the third and the forth. What did it mean it Ďcameí to evening and it Ďcameí to be morning? Well I have some ideas about that. But Iím not going to talk about that today. But it has to do with light and darkness, but not a 24 hour day. 

Iím trying to study a little bit on (oh, I donít even want to use the terms, because people will say, Rayís starting to study astrophysics) but Iíll say it like this, Iím reading material written by astrophysics, how about that. Iím studying morphology, a little bit and into quantum mechanics.

Here is a problem that I see, scientists do not want to acknowledge anything religious, theological, scriptural, or Biblical, at all. The Theologians, religions, and Christians pretty much want to reject anything and everything that goes too far scientific for them, okay. Because both sides thinks they are at logger heads, one with the other.
The Bible canít be true, with the 6 days being 6 billion years or whatever, it can not be, just can not be. How do they know that? Well because it says, 6 days, so itĎs 6 days. But a lot of things are called a day, you know. I covered this at the Mobile conference. 

I can prove on the second page, that these 6 days can be referred to as a day. We find that in the second chapter, where it says, verse 4 ďThese are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in THE DAY that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.Ē

That was on this side of the page, right, in 6 days, ďwhen they were created.Ē In ďthe dayĒ that they were created, singular day. Itís the same day -- yom, same word translated ďdayĒ in the first chapter. So right here we have 6 days, are called the day, singular. Then we have a thousand years, is like a day, and a day is like a thousand years (2 Peter 3:08).
Then we have Acts 17, where it says verse 31 ďBecause He has appointed A DAY in which he will judge the worldÖĒ In 24 hours? No! For the aions, a day. Maybe considerably more than a thousand years. So there is all kinds of uses for the word day in the scripture. Just because it says Ďday oneí doesnít mean a 24 hour day. That is not proof in and by itself. We know that virtually everything in the Bible is symbolic anyway. People say, Ďno itís literal.í
I mean people think there was a literal tree, like an apple tree and when you ate it, your brain understood good and evil from the apple. Itís a symbol, itís all symbolism. Iím not saying there is nothing literal, but even in the literal, there is a spiritual teaching. Someday we are going to have to learn to believe the scripture. Now Iíve been saying this for years. I say you donít believe the scriptures, they say, íyes I believe,í I say no you donít. I say to them, I can show you scriptures and you wonít believe them, and I do. ĎWell how come you donít believe in hell,í because itís not a scripture. Iím not talking about Bible verses, IĎm talking about scripture. If the Bible were the absolute inerrant word of God, why do they have 20-30 different translations or even 400-500, why.

People have virtually no concept of translating. They think well what is the word in Hebrew and what is the word in English. There are no word-for-word translations. Sometimes five words is translated into one, sometimes one word has to be translated into five. There is no other way to do it. Languages do not translate word for word, I showed that in my hell paper, a couple of years ago. I ask my wife, if I say Ďwhat you donít know wonít hurt you,í do you have saying like that in German? She said, yes, but it would translate to Ďwhat you donít know wonít make you hot.í In other words, it doesnít make you angry, you canít get angry about something you donít know about. But it is the same idea.

So science doesnít want to acknowledge religion and religion doesnít want to acknowledge science. Iím saying whichever is true, either one, Iím going to acknowledge both. Now Iím seeing that this earth is more than 6000 years old, Iím seeing that. I mentioned in Mobile, that in Greenland they have gone down 3 kilometer and taken an ice core sample. Ice core samples leave rings or layers, just like the rings of trees. Every summer and winter produces like a ring of a tree, a gradation, a layer. In 3 kilometers they have gone back over 100,000 years. Now are we to think that some years there were 2 rings or 3 made, maybe they went through 3 or 4 where there were no rings made? With trees do some years go by and there are no rings added, maybe 5 years, no rings? Maybe other years you get 3 rings? No. One year one ring. I mean God does not lie. 

Iím reading this Dr. Stroder. Heís got some wacky stuff, but he seemed to be honest. He seems to want, if God spoke it and it line up with science, then letís accept it. I think heís an astrophysics. He said if we canít look at what is and it being based on real science, and say this is a law and carry it forward and backwards and out into the universe. He said then we just might as well fold up our tents and go home. If there are no laws and if everything is so totally relative and there is nothing you can hang your hat on. But itís all just relative according to some relativity of some other relativity. He said we have got to operate from the premise, that gravity is a law. Itís not only a law here, itís a law out there too. He said if we canít go by laws that are consistent throughout the universe. Then forget it, we are at the end of our learning, there is nothing more we are going to learn, because itís hocus pocus from here on. 

So I want to know these things, Iíve always wanted to know these things. Iíve always wanted to know about the dinosaurs. When I first took and interest in the Bible, and the first time I wrote a letter, it may have been a letter to Embassador College, and I wanted to know about the dinosaurs. That was not quite 50 years ago. No one has answered that question for me yet, no one in the world. I have the evolutionist and I have the geologist, the anthropologist and paleontologist and the astrophysics. They all have there theories, and then you have the biblical features and so on. But a lot of them are not even honest. The scientist lie, the theologies lie.
There may be a lot of stuff I donít know and there may be stuff Iím wrong about, but Iím not going to lie to you. If Iím wrong Iíll change it. Weíve changed a few things. I still have to straighten out this, did God foreknow everything or ordain everything. Of course they took exception to the word ordained. That God would Ďordainí some dirty old man to fornicate with a child and then cut his head off, was that Ďordainedí of God? Opposed to, that He had a foreknowledge that it would happen. But I did use the word ordain once for everything, and now Iíve got to go back and redo that a little bit. Certainly God foreknows everything, not everything is ordained.
Like Paul didnít say ordain men and elders, and ordain bishops, and donít forget to ordain those perverts to fornicate with little children, now come on. Somebody will say, ĎI got Ray cornered now, we got a contradiction.í Let me tell you 95% of my emails I get, out of thousands, 95% deal with one thing only, contradictions. They either think Iím contradicting the Bible or the Bible is contradicting. 95% of it, all about contradictions.

So I want to learn these things and I want to, so you will remember and say ĎI remember back in Nashville, Ray was telling us a little bit about this and a little bit about that.' So weíre not going to throw religion and science away or one or the other. Because there is elements of both, that we need to consider. But I want to also show you, that who do you trust? 

There is a thing on TBN, heís got this Creation Evidence Museum, Dr Carl Baugh. Well he has some things about these footprints, so I wanted to check on him. Heís the one that I think who originally brought out this malikite man, and itís this discovery and the man behind this is Dr Carl Baugh. 

There is this paper researching his doctorate degree, but that man has no degree. He got a doctorate like I got a doctorate. This guy is a phony and has no doctorate degree. The only doctorate degree that he says he has is from a Bible correspondence course, from Jerry Farwell.
So I found this in his book, about this malikite man, here shows a man digging bones and these bones are suppose to be in solid sandstone, itís the same strata that runs through Utah and Dakotas. Thatís where they find dinosaurs bones. So in the same rock that you find dinosaurs, they found this skeleton of modern man, and these bones are articulated, that mean they are still joined together and you can actually move them. I said wow, this is amazing stuff.
I learned about this in this beautiful little book here, ĎUnlocking The Mysteries Of Creation.í Itís such a pretty book, got pictures and all kinds of stuff. So Iím reading and he exposes the Piltdown hoax. You all heard about the Piltdown man? Well itís a hoax, there never was a Piltdown man, that was half human and half ape or whatever. Total hoax, he exposes that. He shows that they just drummed that whole thing up.
Over here he has this evidence of humans buried by the great flood, human skeletons found in dinosaur rock layers. This is the hard sandstone of Utah, where these rock formations are confirmed to be some 140 million year old of sandstone, containing dinosaur bones, not too far away from the famous Dinosaur National Park in Utah. They took these human bones, and sent them off, and no scientists reported back. Because they said scientist were afraid of them and didnít want to say anything, because sure enough here is modern man buried with dinosaurs.
I thought wow, I had to call somebody, this is amazing stuff. I never heard of this, modern man buried with dinosaurs, 140 million years ago? So Iím thinking this proves that dinosaurs didnít live 140 million years ago, because they are buried with modern man. This is a modern man, yet it says here, Ďthe perfect modern human jaw.í So this looks absolutely perfect, just like a modern man from New York city, you know, walking down Madison Ave. A perfect human jaw bone and teeth, and they are replaced by turquoise. Itís now solid turquoise, but this is a modern man, wow. How about that, thatís too much to believe, how come this is not world news?
So I start studying and checking internet sites on this malikite man. Then thereís this, the University of Nebraska found 2 years later that these bones were only 200 yrs old, maybe only 150. They were buried in the 1800ís. But they said they were buried 50 ft. down, in solid sandstone rock, the same that runs through Dinosaur Park? They said these were modern man?
Well, hereís this jaw bone that had turned to solid turquoise. It was a farce! The jawbone, itís stained with copper oxide, itís not solid turquoise. These bones were buried in the 1800ís, theyíre Indian. Well what about the sandstone, itís sandblow! Sandblow is when sand blows into the crevices of rocks and packs and it stays that way for hundreds of years and it gets firm. Now you can chip away at it with your fingernails, because itís not rock, itís really tight packed sand, sandblow. Then I see this picture of this little child, he dug all that sand away with a little shovel, that was suppose to be solid rock.
But it said that this one here is different, this one was found years later at a different location. They said this is not the same one dated at 150 years, oh no these are old, these are real old here. So Iím looking at this picture of him with these real old bones, in his plaid shirt. Then I find a picture of the original guy, with the 150 year old bones. Itís the same picture, for crying out loud, same plaid shirt! It the identical photograph, they are suppose to be taken years apart.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2015, 01:43:38 PM by Kat »


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Re: Nashville Conference 2007
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2007, 06:02:02 PM »

audio 1-2/page 2

This guyís name is Dennis Peterson, and I call him up. I said to him, what is this, he says Ďyes, itís a remarkable find.í I said, come on these bones are 150 years old, these are late Indian and this is not sandstone, itís sandblow packed sand, rain will wash it away. 'But these were articulated.' Partly petrified a little, I guess, and I said this solid turquoise jaw is only stained, itís copper oxide. He said, Ďyes but did you notice the finger.í It was something that looked like a little stone, it really didnít look like a finger at all, just a round stone, there was a chip off the end and he said Ďthatís where a fingernail was.í I said you got to know that this is a hoax, and he said, Ďhe didnít want to talk about it anymore.Ē I said you know a few pages back you exposed the Piltdown man and now youíre pulling the same thing. He said, Ďwell Iíve got to go now.í I let him know, you are a worse deceiver than those with the Piltdown man. This is trash, and you call this book ĎThe Mystery Of Godís Creation,í youíre trying to uphold Christianity, and pass off this nonsense? He said, íI got to go.í Just where do you find honest people. Itís a beautiful book, but you just canít believe half of whatís in it.

Now here is something good, this Philip Johnson, a law professor, at Berkley wrote ĎDarwin On Trial.í Itís very good, UNTIL you get to where heís talking about religion. So heís got his facts down on evolution, better than anybody Iíve ever read. But then we have original sin and we inherit the corruptible nature and God is one person in 3. God created Adam in His image and they were given this great intelligence, knowledge and perfect innocents and purity and all this written in their hearts. No it wasnít! But if you want to read it, itís very good, I just got this a couple of years ago. He has an eye here, because he talks about the eye.
When I first started studying the Bible, 40 years ago, the one thing that struck me about evolution, was the eye. How do you evolve an eye? When did a creature that didnít have an eye, decide he wanted one? Maybe one of his buddies said, 'you know if youíre going to go for the eye thing, go for 2.' But you know they had no mouth either, so he really couldnít talk... and had no brain either. But he said, 'what do you mean 2?'  His buddy said, 'you know dept perception, if youíre going to have eyes, youíre going to need 2 to get this thing called dept perception, itís really an elusion in the brain, itís not real.' That evolved from sea slime? No!

Listen, through mutations only one in a hundred generations, of most animals, produce any kind of mutation. Mutations are usually bad, they are detrimental to the health of the creature. Letís suppose that once in a while you have a mutation that is of some kind of benefit and in this case weíre going to work on an eye. How many mutations would you have to have in a row, through evolution, beneficial to start constructing an eye? Well somewhere around a trillion. That is if you had a trillion consecutive mutations, that were all positive and beneficial, and they were all directed to constructing an eye. What are the chances of that? One in a trillion quardrillion trillion. You see what I mean? Thatís every hundredth generation or whatever. How many billion and trillion and quadrillions generations would it take? It would take millions of times longer than the universe was here.  

Did the human eye evolve? No, it did not. Every time you look at an eye you know there is a God. Not only does the eye see... the eye doesnít see, itís the brain that sees. What? Yea, you need the eyes, but the brain sees through the eyes, the eye doesnít see anything. The eye is dumb. Now you have this eye and you have to connect it to a brain that interprets what all this is. That evolved out of chance? With no intelligence? All you have to know is you have 2 eyes and that is proof positive, there is a God! That is unequivocal proof, thereís a God. You canít even begin to imagine your way around that in evolution, thereís no way... well evolutionist will say, if you got enough time. 

How many trillions of years do you want? Because even that isnít enough time. So yes, there is a God. To make eyes, He must be pretty bright. If He gave us a brain and we can think subjectively HeĎs pretty wise. I mean you keep adding these attributes of what God is and He just keeps getting bigger and bigger. Thatís what I want you to see today, God is bigger than this stupid superstitious junk, that we learn in the protestant religion or the Catholic religion. I donít mean that all theologians are just stupid people, I mean there are intelligent theologians who would give honor to God and so on. They just canít get away from the dumb doctrines and all. They were hood wicked into that stuff and I feel sorry for some of them. Some of them appear to be genuinely sincere, but they are sincerely wrong.

Well we are into a second session now and I have got through the first page and a half, and I have 22 to go. So what else is new.  

ĎReason to Believeí by Dr. Ross on TBN. I called him one day and talked with one of his associates. I said you know your going with all this science and astronomy, physics, quantum Mechanics and all this technical stuff and then you accept the Christian religion like it was the truth of God. Iím talking to this person and I say, youíve got one thing really going for you and then you teach all this paganism. Well they hung up real fast, but they got rude first. I mean they did not want to hear it.  

I read a book once, ĎThe bone Peddlers,í that guy really good, he studied the bones. I read about 6 chapters, and he showed all these bones from the java man and Lucy and all this. He knew it all and had studied every facet of the deconstruction. He proved conclusively that there is no such thing as a modern skeleton or any parts of a modern skeleton that goes back more than maybe 50,000 years for sure, certainly not 2-3 million. He said it was about 50,000 and then they just showed up. They were not here and werenít buried with all the other ancient relics and dinosaurs, then all of the sudden, boom modern man. Where did he come from? He shows they did not come from any of these bones. I said wow, you know this guy has got it, heís proved man is modern. Maybe the earth and dinosaurs are old, but man is modern. So he says, where did they come from? Outer space?! So I called him up. I said, you got this great first 6 chapters and then, aliens from outer space?! I said, where did they come from in outer space? I said alright they didnít evolve out of Africa, no. He said, 'well it had to be Asia, they were transplanted here from outer space.' I said where did you come up with that stuff? You had a good book going. He said, ĎIím cutting wood for the fire place, IĎd like to talk, but Iíve got to go.í

And even this Dr. Schroeder Iím reading now, I really like some of his stuff. I think he is really trying to see the truth of the scripture and science. But heís got this thing of, Ďwell where did everything come from?í God created it from nothing. Now he knows that's not scientific. How do you create something from nothing? Well, God did it, He can do anything. This is what the scripture teaches and we do know what the scripture say about this.

We read in the 11 chapter of Hebrews, and how would the writer of Hebrews 2000 years ago know this?  

Heb 11:1  Now faith is substance of things hoped forÖ

No it's not, itís the "conviction" or Concordance has it "assumption." You assume what God says is correct. You assume it, you donít have proof. If you had proof you wouldnít need faith. Faith is when you believe something that you donít have the absolute proof for. Thatís what faith is.

Heb 11:2  If  the elders of old obtained a good report.
v. 3  By faith we understand that the worlds have been framed by the word of God, so that things that is seen were not made out of things which do appear (which are visible).

So the things that are seen are not made from things that are visible. Wow how did they know that, they didnít even have microscopes by then. They didnít know that when you got smaller than an atom you didnít have solid anymore, you have energy. You canít see energy, you canít see electricity, and you canít even see the wind. But the Bible knew everything was made of... itís made out of things that do not appear.  

Bishopís Bible says;
Heb 11:3  Through fayth, we vnderstande that the worldes (it two words, wor - des and it really means the man age, a were-wolf is a  man wolf, so wer + des is an man age, it use to be 2 syllable word -worldes, Bishop has it in old English) were ordeined by the word of God, and that thynges whiche are seene, were made of thynges whiche were not seene.

They were made from something werenít they, just not seen. What does the Bible tell us? All is from God, right. All is out of God. You have to believe that! You got to believe the scriptures! As long as you believe the scripture, I donít think you will find any contradictions, anywhere. Now you might think there is 'eternal' scripture contradictions, and I donít want to get into that. You know different numbering of the Israelites, how many there were and some of these type things.  

Now how long ago was this all made? 12,000 years ago or 12 billion years ago? Well if you believe 12 billion, then you donít believe the Bible. Of course if you believe the Bible, then you donít believe itís 12 billion. Youíre at logger heads. Are you really though?

I just want to open up some things here. Maybe Iíll talk on them in the future, IF God gives me the understanding. So far the things I have written on, as I have come to them and I have to know what they mean, God has opened it up to me. If you ask me 5 years ago to explain what Christ meant when He said, if you call your brother a fool you will be in danger of gehenna fire, hell fire it says in the KJ.  You ask me that 5 years ago, Ďwhat does that mean Ray?í I would have said, 'I donít know.'  

Mat 10:28  Donít fear him that can kill the body, but can not kill the soul: but fear Him who can destroy both soul and body in gehenna.

What does that mean? Five years ago I couldnít tell you. But now that I was coming to it in my paper, I said 'God weíre getting close now, You are going to have to tell me.í I was like one installment away from explaining this and I have to know what it means. He showed me, after 40 years I know what it means, and I know that I know what it means. So Iím asking for understanding about some of these other things. Is God going to show me, I donít know. So Iíve seen some things, let me show you a couple of things. Iíll wet your appetite a little bit.

This first page of the Bible here contains so much information, you got to pay attention to the words, not only what's there, but whatís not there. So now here Gen 1:11  says, ďGod created the heavens and the earth.Ē But then when we come down here it says, concerning the plant life, ďAnd God said let there the earth bring forth.Ē What? Why would it say let the EARTH bring forth? Why didnít it say God created or made? No, itís ďLet the earth bring forth.Ē Whatís He talking about? ďLet the earth bring forth grass.Ē Rotherham translates that vegetation-herb. Itís not literally grass, but itís ďvegetation (grass), herb yielding seed,Ē I donít know if the comma and the Ďtheí is in there. ďLet the land put-forth vegetation-herb yielding seed,Ē what is it we are bring forth? Vegetation, herb yielding seed. What are we bring forth? Seed. Why seed? Why not plants, why seed? Now weíre back to the chicken and the egg.

Now notice something here interesting. So God creates man, right. Now people think there is a contradiction between the first creation, in chapter 1 and the recap of it in chapter 2. No, itís just one goes into detail and the other just hitís the high spots, and says hereís how it actually comes about.  

Gen 2:7  So God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
v. 8  And Lord God planted a gardenÖ

Did you notice that? Supposedly back here we have all the herb yielding trees, but now when we go back, it say I planted it. It says, ďGod planted.Ē Did you ever see somebody plant a 100 year old oak tree? I always said if there were 100 year old trees in the garden, and you cut it down, would it have rings?  

Follow me... Gen 2:8  ďAnd Lord God planted a garden eastward, in Eden;Ē and before He put the man in it, that He had formed, when did He plant the garden? Well it doesnít say. It doesnít say when He planted this garden. It just says that He planted it, before He made man.  

He makes man, whatís He going to do with that? Iíll put him in the garden that I planted. Verse 8 ďÖ and there He put the man whom He had formed." v. 9  "And out of the ground made Lord God to grow every treeÖĒ To grow it says, the word is Ďtsâmachí and it means to spring forth, to bud, to sprout. Where are these trees that He planted? They are sprouting! Thatís what the Hebrew says, itís right there, these trees are sprouting. These are not 100 or 1000 yr. old oak trees or whatever. Theyíre sprouting, but not at the instant that He put Adam in the garden, but when He planted it they were sprouting, things were beginning to sprout and bud. Look up the word tsamach, itís to bud, to sprout, to spring forth.  

This does not hold true to the 6 day plan, because He told Adam, ďDonít eat of this tree.Ē TREE? We have sprouts, now we have a tree? This is a long time afterward. But it was sprouting 'when' He planted the garden. It was sprouting, budding, now we got trees, with fruit on it, right.  

Now what does He tell Adam? ďEvery plant of the field, before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it GREWÖĒ The word Ďgrewí there in chapter 2:5, same word tsamach, it means to sprout. Everything that He planted is sprouting out of the ground, budding and sprouting, springing forth.  

Gen. 2:5 ďÖfor Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth: and there was not a man to till the ground;Ē Cultivate, plow the ground, where? In the garden. So then it says, He talks about the rivers that flow from the garden;  

Gen 2:15  ďAnd Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.Ē

The Hebrew is to cultivate it. Have you ever thought of it that way before? No, nobody thinks about Adam plowing in the garden of Eden. Plowing and cultivating, He put him there to do that. So now heís in the garden and heís keeping and tending it, heís plowing and cultivating. I mean you got fruit to eat and so on. But if he wants bread, heís going to have to grow some wheat. Maybe there was a little wild wheat.
Heís cultivating the garden of Eden for how long, how many years and then God says itís not good that man should be alone. So then He puts him in the garden, to cultivate. He brings all the animals and he learns all the habits of the animals. Because he named them according to there habits and what they were like, what qualities or characteristics they have. It takes a long time to do that. He named all the animals on earth. God says again, there was not found for Adam anybody to be a help mate for him.  

So Iím saying this was probably years and years he was alone. God said a couple of times, itís not good that Adam should be alone. Finally God puts him into a stupper, takes an organ from him and makes a woman.  

I kidded everybody last conference, it didnít take Adam long to figure out where she came from. He looked at her and said, she came from me, thatís mine or was mine, now itís hers, and itís not a rib. There is a word missing and when it says in verse 23, Adam says, ďAt last!Ē Not many translations have that ďat last.Ē So what He made Adam at 3:00 and she was made at 5:30, and he says, well itís about time! This was years later, and he said, 'okay, at last!' Well the elephants have theirís, the chickens theirís, the cows have their mate and now, one for me, alright!  

But heís there cultivating the garden and God is sprouting the trees. Thatís how it came about. It didnít happen in 24 hours. So thereís a lot in here, you have to read all the words. Iím saying I think God has a lot to reveal to us. So we have to look at the words!

« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 11:23:07 AM by Kat »


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Re: Nashville Conference 2007
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2007, 12:42:34 AM »

Audio 3

A lot of scientist use to believe that matter was eternal. But the last 20 years, Iím being told, by the things Iím reading, that the majority of scientist now, definitely believe there was a creation. Now they think that creation started with a big bang, but there was a time when this didnít all exist, and it came into existence. From where? Well they donít know.

Thatís why I gave you these scripture ďall is out of God.Ē God is spirit, God is invisible. Scripture say all that can be seen, was made from things that are not seen. They didnít come out of nothing, they came out of what is not seen. Who is not seen? God is not seen!  

Now although the world has a superstitious way of looking at religion, there is a lot about the creation that is quite frankly strange. When I talk to Dennis, I say itís just bizarre. This whole creation is really quite bizarre. I donít mean that in a negative or derogatory way. Bizarre means; strangely, strikingly, unconventional and farfetched in style and appearance, okay. In every sense of the definition, this universe is bizarre. I mean think about it, orbs floating though space and stars exploding. Fish in the water and birds in the sky and humans and little kittens and puppy dogs. We grow stuff out of the ground, we chop holes in the ground and grow things out of it. We grow old. For what? Whatís it all about?  

Thousands of generations of everybody trying to get their share of good things, before they die. Weíre always fighting the inevitable. Like Iím always fighting over weight, Iím diabetic you know. Of course it said on the medication: weight gain, cramping, sleeplessness, nervousness, irritation, you know. Nervous breakdown-insanity-death, oh okay, I really want to take some of them, for sure.  

We all live these lives of quiet desperation. Everyone is trying to get out of their situation. There whole life, all day every day trying to get out of your situation. Itís I want to get out of my situation. I donít want to be here, I want to be over there, I want more money, Iím aching, Iíve got to get a hair cut, I need new clothes or I got to solve this problem with my kids. All day, every day, everybody is trying to escape what they are and where they are. Your whole life you are just trying to get away.
Sometimes there are moments, when we say wow, the dogs arenít barking, Iíve got food, Iím feeling good, my wife is sexy, the sun is shining, the TV is working, the air conditioning is nice and cool, I just got a new car and life is good.  

And then you start getting older and adopting these other philosophies, and well like, Ďlifeís a bitch and then you dieí or Shakespeare; "Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." What? That's life? Thereís not much to it. Itís weird, bizarre!  

And then we go to war and start killing each other and torturing each other. Thereís global warming, and all this stuff!  

Our bodies are so marvelously made, itís absolutely mind boggling whatís in the human body, all the organs and how everything works together. Then it doesnít work. What is that? This big old blood clot, what is that? They just say, Ďit will clear up in about 5 days,í oh well, I get them all the time. People say, Ďyou look okay for 66, Ray.í Thatís out here, but you should see the inside. I mean my feet are turning numb, itís from the diabetes and now itís coming up my legs and my knees donít work any more.

Iím taking all those drugs, so I got a slight kidney infection all the time.  But we got to protect your liver and we need to boost your pancreas, so I take all these drugs. This one is to help absorb insulin better and this one is for high glycosides, one for high cholesterol, one for high blood pressure and then I have hyperthyroidism. I have sleep apnea, so I sleep with machine, because I stop breathing about 50 times a night. I have this sinus where I canít breath half the time. I had two cataracts surgeries and now one eye goes this way and one goes that way, because I had streptococcal meningitis 15 years ago that nearly killed me. I have a huge blood clot on the brain, so thereís a lot of things not working quite right in my body. Iím not worried about any of this stuff, other than it hurts sometimes and itís aggravating, because I can hardly walk stairs and stuff.  

But itís a marvelous piece of machinery. Of course I didnít take very good care of mine, maybe you take care of yours. But then of course there's this thing with heredity, you know. People say, Ďwell I donít know why everybody is sick, they just donít live right.í No, some just didnít inherit good genes, you know. If you did, you can break more laws of good health than anybody and with your good genes, your ok. Your body was made so you good that you can abuse it, and you still canít ruin it.  

So we can realize that this whole creation is marvelous, but yet it is bizarre. Itís quite strange.  We read in Isaiah 28:21 that the Lord is doing a strange work. I say amen to that. Itís strange... because all you people are sitting here, and I am telling you about Bible stories and evolution and stars and people that lie, in their book. Weíre talking about God. Well what is this all about? Somebody would say, Ďwell we want to get saved.í Well what will we do then? ĎWell we will judge angels.í What, weíre going to judge angels? What are angels? ĎOh they are spirit things.í What do you mean spirit? ĎWell you canít see them.í Well how do you know they are there? ĎWell they're there, there are these angels that fly around. Theyíre some in this room right now.í But, I believe theyíre real, that the scary part. I believe they really are, you see.
Somebody ask me last week about demons. There really are these things. Iíve had a little experience and I know some of them by name.  

My friend, Eliot from Brooklyn, we went to college together. I was living in Mobile at the time, I had moved away for 20 years, then came back. We were going to meet at Mt. Pocono, because there was a large church up there. We were in Worldwide and they had a festival up there, so I was going to meet Eliot there. It was one of those spooky nights. By the time the last service was over and with the fellowshipping. The sun was going down, it got dark early and it was raining and foggy.  

One of the ministers came up to Eliot and me and ask us to come to a side room, ĎWe have a little problem.í We said okay, weíll help and went with him. So in the room there was about 5 of us and there was this women. She was about 75 years old, with gray hair, a little on the hefty side. She was acting strange. So we ask what was going on, and he said, Ďwell we think Anne is having a problem.í So we were gathered around and Anne was looking a little strange, she would snarl her face up and say, ĎI know who you are.í This was a 75 year old woman, with gray hair and she is talking like a monster, you know. We said, okay we know what we got here. These things would take her over and she would get violent and wanted to attack us. There were five strong men, in our 30ís trying to hold her down.  

This was a 75 year old lady, each of us had one arm one leg, she was just violent. We would ask, Ďwho are you?í She would just snarl and then she would give us a name. We didnít know, so we would just command these things to come out, in the name of Jesus Christ. Then she would settle down and be like, Ďwhat are you all doing?í Weíd say, well youíre not feeling to good Anne, Ďwell, whatís wrong?í You are just not feeling good right now. Then her face would snarl up and she would start yelling at us.  We would say, who are you?  Itís kind of comical now, I donít think that demons are smart. I remember that at one point there was one, I did know them all, but I started to forget them. But this one was named Bok, and we cast out Bok.  Then we cast out a bunch of others. So one after the other, they would just take her and weíd cast them out, then she would just settle down and be fine. She would say, Ďwhatís wrong, why am I on the floor?í She didnít know what was happening.  We would ask each oneís name and it was a different demon. One time I ask who are you, and it said ĎBouk,í we said wait a minute we just cast you out, it said, Ďno, that was Bok, Iím Bouk.í Iím serious.  

We were there for an hour or two, casting out demons. Some of them just would not come out, it said, Ďthe master would be very angry.í  We ask who is the master, it said, Ď Beelzebub is the master.í They didnít want to come out. Then she would settle down for a while. Then this one, we said who are you, it said Ďnoí we said we command you in the name of Jesus Christ what is your name, Ďnoí we said we command you, you have to tell us, Ďmy name is no.í She would settle down and then another would take her over and she would want to attack us and kill us. I tell you by the time we were done, it was enervating. We knew we were in a different realm. We ask them questions and we ask them about stuff, we knew about to see if they knew about it. So this stuff is real. This is not fairy land or the wizard of Oz, this stuff really does exist. They're spirits in the air.

It says in Hebrews you better watch how you treat strangers, because you might be entertaining an angel unaware, you know. Now I donít know if a demon can manifest themselves as human. But I donít see any examples of that.

I only tell you these things so you will understand that it is bizarre. All this stuff, itís real. Itís real, because we are here. Many times Iíve said if I wasnít here, I just wouldnít believe any of this. If someone said there is this earth and people live on it, and there are these animals and fish. I would say, are you crazy, what are you talking about? But Iím apart of this and I see the creation. Iím a part of it and it is bizarre. You canít deny your own existence.
Then thereís a God and He is invisible. He works through these mysterious ways, ďA strange work I will perform upon the earth.Ē  But donít let that throw you. Donít ever think that this is all fairy tales, itís all religious, hocus pocus. Itís all real, Iím here to tell you, itís real.

God says, ďyour thoughts are not My thoughts.Ē Well, whatís it all about God? He only tells us a little bit, doesnít tell us everything. I just know there is so much in that first chapter or two of Genesis. That I just know itís filled with stuff, but I havenít put it all together, yet.  

Sometimes Iíll just ask God to show me something and Iíll be laying in bed or driving down the road and boom, there it is. I mean I understand it now, He just shows me, out of nowhere. But there is so much we donít know.  

We are talking about Jesus Christ in this series. Who is Jesus Christ? Where did He come from? What do we know about Him? What do we know about the Father?  
Look at the last Passover.

John 17:5  ďAnd now, Father, glorify Me with Thine own Self with the glory which I had with You before the world was.Ē

Now, we donít think about these things. Iím trying to get people to look at these scriptures. Look at the words, believe it and see what it says. ďglorify Me with thine own self with the glory which I hadÖĒ Glorify mean a worthy name or worthy to be praised or worthy to be extolled or worshipped. Christ said, give Me back this glory which I had with You. Where did He get it?  What did Jesus Christ do, before the foundation of the world, that entitled Him to glory? What? I mean does God just put crowns and accolades on people? What did He do to deserve it, nothing? Iím all powerful. Where did He get the power? Christ tells where He got His power and stuff. He said God gave it to Me, ďall power is given to Me of the Father.Ē Thatís where He got it.  

But now glory is something that you do, that exalts you as someone to be worshipped, adored, and appreciated, for what, youíve done. What did He do before the creation of the world? Before He created the world... what did He do? Well I contend that He did something.
Somebody ask the other day, Ďwhy is God going through all this ( I could almost hear them say nonsense) to create sons of God? If He created Christ Jesus, why doesnít He just create a whole bunch of Jesus'? Well why doesnít He just make a whole bunch of Jesusí? We wouldnít have to go through all this pain and suffering, growing old and being sick, hurting and dying? Just create a bunch of Jesusí and then Heíll have all the sons He wants.  

We donít know what Jesus went through. How did He become number One? How did He become the Son of God? How did He become glorified? What did He go through?  It says;

Heb 5:8  ďthough He was a Son, yet learned obedience by the things which He suffered;Ē  

ĎYea, but that was talking about things in His physical life.í Was it? Was it really? We could say that and give examples of it  But is that exclusively what it was talking about? Only in the physical flesh, did He suffer to learn obedience and so on?  
Let me show you something, back in Genesis;

Gen 3:22  ďAnd the Lord God said, now the man is become as one of Us, to know good and evil;Ē

When there was only God, no creation, no star systems, just God. What did He know about evil? What evil?  

Now He creates man and He said, ďnow he can become like one of Us, to knowÖĒ and of course you can say good, because God is good. But evil? How did God know evil? What in the universe... well there wasnít a universe, well what in God then was there that was evil? How did He know evil?  He created evil, but where did it come from?  Where did the idea come from? When it was only God, who is righteous and good and Holy and just and all of that, where was the evil? God was evil?  

What Iím saying is He knew evil, how did He know evil? Now man understands evil. They are going to be banished from the garden and they die. This is an evil that has come upon them, because they disobeyed. Which is another evil you see. But God said ďWe understand good and evil,Ē( Gen. 3: 22)  Before there was a creation, God understood evil. From where? From what?  

« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 10:49:37 AM by Kat »


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Re: Nashville Conference 2007
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2007, 12:43:22 AM »

                                                                                                                               audio 3/page 2

[A question to Ray, then he replies] Heís just thinking ahead that He is going to create something called evil? But where would that concept come from? If Heís thinking ahead, Heís going to create a Son, who was going to live righteous and good. But that comes from Him, that is what He is. God is love, God is spirit, Heís invisible, this is what He is. God is not evil. How did He know evil? I have some ideas about that. What Iím saying is you can all see that it was there. Weíre going to go a little deeper then these other people go. 

God is all wise, all knowing, all powerful and He does not change. Did He ever? Thatís what He is now, but did He have to go through something to become what He is. Hmm, wow maybe there is more glory in that then you could ever conceive of. Well why doesnít He change? íWhat are you trying to say Ray, are you trying to insinuate that Heís learning?í No, He knows it all. When you reach perfection, you donít change. Once you reach total perfection, you do not change! Jesus Christ is the express, very absolute, image of God. Guess what? He doesnít change. You donít change when you are perfect. Total perfection! Well you think about that.

The Bible starts ďIn the beginningÖĒ  In Gen. 1:1, Right? No, wrong pale face. It just says ďIn beginningÖĒ or if anything  ďIn a beginningÖĒ In a beginning God--Elohim. That Elohim is plural of Elyon or El, which is the singular for God.  So Elohim is plural, itís more than one. But there is only one God. There is only one Elohim and Elohim is plural? Alright we are going to be talking about this. 

ďÖ Created the heavens and the earth,Ē Now we know that this word Elohim is plural, not only from the entomology of the word and how itís used in other religions anciently and so on  But we know when it says for example, verse 27, ďGod created man in His imageĒ and God said in verse 26, ďlet US create in OUR image,Ē They did create, that word Us and Our, because the word Elohim is plural, itís in the Hebrew. The Us and Our is in the Hebrew, itís there. So it must mean Us rather than Me. Itís in the Hebrew, itís there. 

So itís Ďaí beginning. It says, ďIn a beginning God created the heaven and the earth.Ē But then we read something over in Job 38.

Job 38:1  Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
v. 2  Who is this that darkens counsel By words without knowledge?
v. 3  Gird up now thy loins like a man; For I will demand of thee, and declare you unto Me.
v. 4  Where was you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, it to Me if you have understanding.
v. 5  Who determined the measures thereof, if you know? Or who stretched the line upon it?
v. 6  Whereupon were the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the corner-stone thereof,
v. 7  When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Whoops, wait a minute, ďIn the beginning God created the heavens and the earthÖĒ This is the beginning of things? Apparently not. What was the first created, the heaven or the earth? The heavens... and the earth. So when we come to the earth, the heavens are already created. When He creates the earth, low and behold we have the morning stars shouting for joy. Where did they come from, if this is in the beginning? 

Alright, first of all when it says morning stars, this is the breaking of day, the dawn. So what is the breaking of day or dawn? Thatís when the earth moves and the sun appears to go up and come down. The whole thing is working! Everything is already working, the earth is turning and now these sons of the dawn, of this turning earth, are shouting for joy and singing. 

But we learn in Job 1, that these sons of God presented themselves to Him and Satan came among them. Remember what Satan was saying about Job, and God said, well you can do anything you want, but spare his life and so on. These are the angelic beings, weíre not told where they are created in Genesis. But now we know. They had to be created between the heavens and the earth. So by the time the earth was created, they are already here. Now we got the proof. 

So He created the heavens and He creates the earth, and then God had to probably say, Ďalright turn it on.í  ĎTurn it, spin it.í Okay now we got day and night...  ĎNow push it, push it around the sun.í Now we have the seasons. The days and nights, and seasons, itís all starting to work. The sons of God are shouting for joy and singing. It says they sang together. ĎI didnít know they sang, where did the angels learn to sing?í You donít just learn things from nothing, God taught them to sing. What? Thatís right, God sings. You see what you can learn if you pay attention to the scriptures. God sings. 

Why can some people sing and most canít? For the same reason some men are handsome and most arenít and some women are pretty and most arenít. So they stand out! If all women were beautiful, nobody would be beautiful, you see what Iím saying. If everybody could sing then nobody would want to listen to singing. Part of the reason that singing is so beautiful, is because you canít do it. When you have that certain edge, that comes only from God, thatís Godly quality singing. God taught the angels to sing. 

So partly what I wanted to show you here, what we have, a lot of it is Godly. Maybe perverted and may not be on the same realm, but it had itís source in a heavenly setting. Maybe more things than we realize.

Heb 8:1  Now these things we have spoken unto you, we have a high priest, who sat down on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
v. 2  a minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitchedÖ

Compared to what? The one that Moses pitched. But the Lord pitched the tabernacle, a heavenly tabernacle.

Heb 8: 4 Öfor if He were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, seeing there are priests that offer gifts according to the law;
v. 5  who serve unto the example and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle; for See, saith He, that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.

And what was that pattern of? Where did God get the idea for this tabernacle? In heaven, the heavenly tabernacle. God pitched that one, it was not made with hands. But this one was an example and a shadow of a heavenly thing. God told him exactly how to make it in the physical.

Heb 9:24  For Christ entered not into a holy place made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itselfÖ

What? Apparently so. There are heavenly counterparts of all this physical stuff. Weíve got a lot to learn yet. Thereís a lot of stuff in here(Bible). We got to pay attention to the words. 

So here were sons of God. Well why arenít we like them then? If God made the heavens and the angels - sons of God and He made the earth. Why werenít we made then? We have to go through all this. Well it just appears in this strange work of God, this bizarre creation of His, that He is doing something with us different. 
Angels are created, they come out of God. But they are created. We are not created sons of God, nope. 

Now suppose you were lucky enough that some monarch would let you live in his palace, for what ever reason. You can partake of all the goodies, have fine food, all the entertaining. Wouldnít that be great. What if though, He made you a personal confident of his, wow. I mean somebody like the queen of England. What if a king would adopt you, as his own. Well we are moving on up the line here, now we are adopted. But what would be better yet, what if you were actually born into that family, you were literally a son of the king. 

The difference between these sons of God and us, sons of God, we are going to be BORN into Godís family. I mean we are going to be real born sons and daughters of God, born. BORN! Thatís what it means, itís a much closer relationship. A little bit tougher on the requirement side though. 

Now notice in Hebrews 1, we donít want to say these things without backing them up, right.

Heb 1:5  For unto which of the angelsÖ

Remember we talked about the angels called, sons of God shouting for joy and appeared before God. You know when they were talking about Job and so on. They were sons of God, angelic beings. ďBut unto which of the angels said he at any time, you are my son, this day have I BEGOTTEN youÖĒ Created? No, begotten! You may not know about this Greek word, in the Greek there is no separate word for begotten and born, same word. 

You got to be careful, when Christ said, ďexcept you be born againĒ we are not born again. But we are begotten anew, from on high. Some of these words are left out of the KJ. It should be ďwe are begotten anew, from on high.Ē You are begotten once in the flesh from our parents. Now we are begotten anew, a new begettal from on high. When we are born into the kingdom of God, then we are made where our flesh and blood is turned into spiritual bodies. We will be like God, brother of Christ, like God. So which of the of the sons did He ever say that? Well He said that to His Son, but He never said it to the angels. 

Heb 2:10  For it became Him, for whom are all things(speaking of Jesus), and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
v. 11  For both He that sanctifieth and they that are sanctified are all of one: for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren,

There it is! Did He ever do this with the angels, in His original creation? Back there between the heaven and the earth, when they shouted for joy. When He put the earth in motion and started pushing it around the universe and they shouted for joy and sang? No. They were created beings. We are begotten. But remember we only have the earnest, the down payment.

Like a conception, there is not a baby until itís born. Am I right doctor?  You are a OBGYN? So Dr. Carol here knows all about what Iím talking about. When you are begotten, when there is a conception, there is no baby, yet. Not until they start to cry, then you cut the umbilical cord, now we got a human being, born. So we will be born. There is a big difference between being purchased or being adopted and being born into royalty, born into the family of God. 

Jesus Christ was born of God. Iím seeing in the scripture now, that happened when He was a human, in Mary. We got to go through the scripture and see where He came from. Jesus Christ never once said, I came out of my motherís womb. He tells us where He came from. I can show you 10 places in scripture, where He says where He came from. Not one of them says His motherís womb. 

« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 01:49:02 PM by Kat »


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Re: Nashville Conference 2007
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2007, 04:22:13 PM »

Audio 4 

Where Did Jesus Come From?

I donít want to give the wrong impression when I say God knows all and Heís perfect, but did He always know what He knows? 
Did God ever grow?
Did God ever experience anything bad, to become perfect?

Well He doesnít tell us. But Iím just saying I see little insights. You know He knew good and evil. How did He know evil, when there was nothing but Him? See what Iím saying, there was not even Christ. Now by the time Christ came along as the Son of God... because you see ĎWe,' you know the ĎWeí in Genesis. But that still includes the Father, that knew good and evil. But how? Well people donít even think about it, they just think thatís God He knows everything. Yea but where was it(evil)... I mean God is not evil. But where was the evil, that He knew evil? 

I'm just wondering if someday we are going to learn that God is not a magic Jeanie in a lantern. That God has BECOME what He is. Some will say, Ďwell I donít know what to think about that.í We know He is what He is, but what Iím saying is, what if He BECAME what He is. Maybe God is a whole lot more, better and stronger then we could ever dream. Because you could have an idea like you think Heís like a King born with a silver spoon in His mouth. That He was always God and He always had everything He wanted. He just snaps His fingers and presto. But what if it wasnít always that way? What if God has 10 trillion times the character that we have?
Where did the concept come from, that you have to endure pain and hardship, to develop Godliness? Where did that concept come from? Well you say God just invented it. Why would you invent something that doesnít exist like that? 

He wants us to become like Him. But are we going to do it through something that has no relevance to what He is whatsoever? That doesnít quite make sense to me.
Then Jesus Christ... we are going to see who and what He is. He learned obedience by the things that He suffered, just as a human. How did He become the Son of God? Did God just say, Iím going to create a Son and whoosh...?

A woman sent me an email and said, 'why didnít He just create a whole bunch of Jesusí? Why do we have to go through all of this to become sons of God... pain, suffering, growing old, disease, losing loved ones, wars, torture, why? If all He had to do was just make a bunch of Jesusí then He would have all the sons He wants.'

There is something about this creation that ties in with the spirit. We read it in Hebrews; about the tabernacle, the sanctuary and the Holy place. Christ didnít just become what symbolizes the Holy place here on earth. But in heaven He entered the Holy of Holies. In heaven! Thatís where He made remission for our sins, before the Father. Not just on the cross, but before the Father in heaven. They are types and Iím not saying God shows us all this stuff. But I think He is showing us that it is there. It is there, you just have to believe the scripture. 

Now what is the grandest of all types of the heavenly, that has come to earth? The ultimate supreme likeness of something heavenly is Jesus Christ. This is not strictly, purely a earthly creation or invention. So whatever exist in heaven is personified in this Man, Jesus Christ. Now Jesus is the only one who is now in the image of God and we read in Hebrews.
Hebrews 1:3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His personÖ
I think the Concordant uses the word, assumption, "express image of His assumption..."

v. 3 ...and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

This is speaking about Jesus Christ? He is the image of His Father.

Somebody ask me if "the god of this world" could possibly be referring to God rather than Satan. I considered it a long time ago, because Satan deceives and God blinds. God blinded them, Satan deceived. 

2Cor. 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine upon them.

So Jesus Christ is the personification of God. Heís the only one that is totally in His image. But then in Rom. 8, again we have the difference between the angels and what God is putting us through. 

Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestinates to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first creation (born).

No, "first BORN." Remember when weíre born into the family of God, God will be our Daddy. You know like it says in that movie, ĎItís good to be the king.í Weíre not just working there, weíre not adopted, weíre BORN! God is our Daddy. This is heavy duty stuff, but this is a process, it has not happened yet. 

So letís take a look at this first one, Jesus. 
Now just for fun. What is the first recorded words we have of Jesus Christ? The first recorded words are ďLet there be light.Ē That was Christ. Now Iím going to prove that. We can prove that was Jesus Christ. 

I get a lot of emails about the name of Jesus being pagan. You know these sacred name societies out there. Trust me itís all bunk, all of it. This Yehowshuwa, all this is bunk. They say Jesus is Jeezeus or however you spell that. Jeezeus and Zeus is the god of the Greeks. Jeezeus is talking about the Greek god? No, itís not.  ut itís a very complicated thing. 

I want you to know, not to be taken in by all this nonsense. Every religion on earth, somebody in their organization is going around saying itís Yehowshuwa or Iesous, and they think they are so holy doing that. Where can we learn where this is done? 

There were these 70 scholars, hence the name Septuagint. Actually there was 72, but there is not a nice sounding name like Septuagint, for 72. So they were translating the Hebrew language into Greek. So when they come to these different names, how do they translate them into Greek? 

Well you think you can translate a word like mother, from one word. But every language has a name for mother or father and you can translate those names pretty easy. It may even be two words, but it is still father in this language. But when you come to a personís name, how do you translate that?  Well it gets tricky, but there are rules of grammar. 

Joshua and Jesus are the same name, and thatís why in the book of Acts you have it talking about Jesus, being back in the OT. No itís not Jesus, itís Joshua. That is a blatant error in the KJ, it has Jesus there, when itís suppose to be Joshua.   

[this is a complicated explanation of these Hebrew and Greek sounds and spellings, I did the best I could with the spelling (Kat)]
Yehoshua comes from YWV. The Y is from the Hebrew 'ye,' but in Greek it becomes Ďihí itís pronounced 'eeay.' V is the Hebrew is Ďshiní which is the sh sound, but in Greek you just make it 's,' they have no sh sound. So you have 'ihs' and itís ye-sh. The W is Ďvaví itís a u sound and in Greek it becomes Ďou.í So you have yehowshuwa yeh-ho-shoo-a or yehoshua, it almost the same thing. The 'ye' is a softer sound, but some say it is pronounced 'ya' with a j sound. 

About 1500 they came out with the j, and they didnít have j before the 1500ís, so they used a j for the Ďyaí sound and it became stronger 'ja.' So instead of ye-hoshua, itís j-hoshua - Jesus.  Jesus is not pagan. Itís just the way you transliterate YWV into Greek. Donít let anybody tell you it is. 

One of the most powerful things we have to learn in the Scripture is that no man has ever seen God or heard His voice. You have just got to believe that. It says that over and over, so you got to believe it. If you donít, well then you will think Jehovah is God the Father and you will have all these crazy things, that arenít true. Itís a major truth. We have to find out who the God of the Bible is. "No man hath seen God at any time (John 1:18)." Is that clear!

John 5:37  And the Father Himself that sent Me, He hath borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape.

1 John 4:12 No man hath beheld God at any timeÖ

There it is again. So when Abraham entertained 3 Ďmení and Jacob wrestled with this Ďmaní he said, "Iíve seen God face to face, and lived to tell about it (Gen. 32:30)." He did not see God the Father and I donít believe he saw Jesus Christ, either. He saw a representative from God, in the form of a man. It was a man and yes it was sent from God and it was all powerful and all that. But it plainly says, it was a man, in all those cases it says it was a man. Itís the same word man, when it says woman was taken from man - aw-dawm (Gen. 2: 23). 

Once you learn a spiritual truth, donít ever let it go. If you havenít learned it yet, you tend to be a little wishy washy. But once you learn it, donít ever let it go.

Weíll get this nailed down pretty good here.

Matt 11:27 All things are delivered to Me by the Father.

Thatís a pretty powerful statement right there. Where did Christ get, everything? From His Father. You say, Ďoh but He was equal with God, part of the trinity, one of the three and He was just as much God.í Where did He get it? From His Father! The giver is greater than the receiver!
We are going to come to ďHe was sent.Ē The scripture say, ďHe who was sent, is not as great as He who sent Him (John 13:16)." 

You got to believe the scripture, thatís all. If it says it and itís translated right, BELIEVE IT. Then you start making real progress. You learn something brand new and itís true and you hang on to that. Then you just make so much progress, learning learning learning. But if you follow this hocus pocus Christianity nonsense, itís just all superstitious fairytales. Not that there isnít an element of truth in it, but you know what Iím saying. Nothing is ultimately true and it all contradicts. 

Paul said, our only hope is the resurrection of the dead, and they say, Ďthrow it away, itís useless, when I die I go to heaven.í They take a short cut, by-pass, throw away, thumb their nose at the resurrection. Paul said, itís our only hope, (Acts 23:6; 24: 15, 1 Peter 1:3). What do you do with something like that? The Bible says, that if there is no resurrection of the dead, we are finished (1 Cor 15: 12-14).  And the church says, Ďweíve got a short-cut, straight to heaven.í

Like this cartoon I saw, there was a sign to grandmother house and off they went. Then there was another sign, to grandmothers house 'shortcut'... it doesnĎt work like that.

Here's another scripture on this, there are probably more. Iím putting together more of these scriptures then ever before and I realize there is a lot to substantiate these truths.

John 6:45  It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me.
v. 46  Not that any man hath seen the Father, save He that is from God, He hath seen the Father.

So has anybody ever seen God? No. Ever see His shape? No. Ever heard His voice? No. Did they ever hear the voice of God in the OT?  'Huh?' Yes they did. Did they see His shape? Yes he did. ďand you shall see My back partsĒ (Exodus 33: 18-23). Well wait a minute, I thought nobody saw God or heard God in the OT? In the OT it said they heard God, Deut. 4:33.  Okay, this can get confusing. Letís see if we can unravel this. 

The first thing I want to show, is Jesus Christ existed before His human form. We are going to prove this, I have 18 proofs.

[1] "These things says the Amen [Jesus] the faithful and True Witness [Jesus] the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14).
There are three theories about how Christ came about.
1)  He came about for the first time as a human being, out of a physical mother. That was the first time Christ ever existed.
2)  He was created sometime before that and then came into the mother.
3)  Then you have, He is eternal, He always existed.

Very few believe He just came into existence as a physical human being, for the first time ever... though I had one man argue with me for weeks. He said, Ďno, in the beginning was the Word and it was the Father, that the Word was God and not Christ.' Not too many people believe that, but some do. 

Most people follow the Christian tradition and they believe no. 3, that Christ was eternal, Heís part of the trinity and Heís always existed. But of course the truth is no. 2, Jesus Christ was created.

-"the Origin of Godís creation" (James Moffatt).
-"Godís creative Original" (Concordant Literal New Testament).
-"The Chief of the creation of God" (Youngís Translation).
-"the Origin, and Beginning, and Author of Godís creation" (The Amplified New Testament).

Well the truth of the matter is from those translations, you canít actually prove that He is not eternal, by that statement. But you say, 'yea Heís the beginning, He started the creation, HeĎs eternal.' So to me itís a proof that HE is the beginning. Not the beginning of what God has created on the earth, but He Himself is "the beginning" of Godís creation. It depends how you emphasize. You have the same sentence with two totally different meanings. 

Itís like, I tell you this day (today Iím telling you), you shall be in paradise. Or, I tell you today, you shall be in paradise. 

And thereĎs this one. Whatís that up in the road ahead? Or, whatís that up in the road, a head?

So we wonít place a lot of emphasis on that one. But one thing that we do know from that one is, before He was human, He was there! So we know whatever His beginning was, He was there, at the beginning.

[2] "I am the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, says the Lord, which is and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:08).
"Almighty" Strongís #G3841 "pantokrator; the all ruling, that is, God (as absolute and universal sovereign): - Almighty, Omnipotent."

Well it sounds pretty Godly to me and it sounds like He is contributing that to Jesus Christ. But again, it tells us ďthe beginning and the end,Ē but we canít conclusively prove... we know He was at the beginning. But is He eternal or was He created? We still donít know.

Hereís the proof about who this almighty is and then we learn something else about this and bring it down until, we say wait a minute. We see this is not speaking about God the father, for sure. If God and Christ are really totally equal, in that being eternal, we still have a problem and let me go through it here. 

This "Almighty" is the "Alpha & Omega." This "Alpha and Omega" is called "First and Last" in Rev. 1:11 and "First and Last" in 1:17. But we still canít conclusively prove it from that, that He was there. But then we read in verse 18, is the One who became "DEAD." Now the thing is, can God die? If Christ is eternally existing with His Father, eternally, how could He DIE? Can an eternal God die?

« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 11:03:44 AM by Kat »


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Re: Nashville Conference 2007
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2007, 04:25:25 PM »

                                                                           Audio 4/page 2

I found eleven places in the scripture on this. Ironically I taught this to somebody and thereafter they said they discovered it. They named their website after it. But I discovered this about five years ago. Eleven places where it talks about this .

1. "Him which is, and which was, and which is to come" (Rev. 1:4).
2. "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, which is, and which was, and which is to come" (Re. 1:08).
3. "I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last" (Rev. 1:11).
4. "I am the first and the last" (Rev. 1:17)
5. "I am He that lives, and was DEAD; and, behold, I am alive" (Rev. 1:18).

Itís the same One. Itís the same Alpha and Omega, the beginning and end, the is, was and is to come.  ďwas DEAD and behold I was alive.Ē

6. "the first and the last, which was DEAD, and is alive" (Rev. 2:08).
7. "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come" (Rev. 4:08).
8. "Oh Lord God Almighty, which art, and was, and are to come" (Rev. 11:17).
9. "Thou art righteous, O Lord, which are, and was, and shall be" (Rev. 16:5).
10. "And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely" (Rev. 21:6).
11. "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev. 22:13).

So this ďAlpha and Omega,Ē beginning and end,Ē ďthe First and the last,Ē ďwho is, and was, and is to come.Ē   Was DEAD.
This is not God the Father! God the Father never died and God can not die.

Now there is a scripture (1 Tim. 2:5), that I have been taking another look at. Like I say, if I make a mistake I just have no problem saying I was wrong about this or that. 

1Tim 6:13  I charge thee in the sight of God(so who is the subject here - God), who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession;
v. 14  that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
v. 15  which in its own times He shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

Well you say thatís got to be talking about Jesus Christ. Well maybe not. I mean God is everything that Jesus Christ is too, you know. Who is the Savior of the world? Jesus Christ? God is the Savior of the world! Yes Jesus Christ is the channel through who it comes. But God almighty is the Savior of the world. Heís also the Creator. We are actually going to find out, who actually did the creating? Christ. But who is the Creator? God the Father, okay. But we are going to see it specifically, in detail. So then it says;

1Tim 6:15  ďwhich in its own times He shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
v. 16  who only hath immortalityÖĒ

I always thought that was speaking about Christ. But Iím thinking now, no, heís talking about God. God only has immortality;

v. 16 ďÖ dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can seeÖĒ

Isnít this talking about God, the Father? Well what does it matter?   
Well hereís the thing. Where does it say if somebody is able to have the title God, that you have to be eternal for that? I donít know of any. 

There is no doubt about it Jesus Christ now has immortality, that means He canít die. But we are talking about a time when God Ďonlyí had immortality. Where did Christ say He got His life? He got it from the Father (John 5:26).
But you always want to think about these things. Someone will say, Ďwell thatís talking about His human flesh, you know human.í No, I think these things are dual. These things pertain to Him Ďbeforeí His human flesh. You know He talked about the glories and stuff He had before (John 17:5). Did He have a glory as a human? He prayed for the glory He Ďonceí had, so did He not have any glory then? Well, He did have glory. We read that in flesh and blood He did have glory.

John 1:14  And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

He didnít have the glory that He had though. I mean it was much more, it was much grander. He didnít have all that glory, because He diminished Himself. We are coming to that very powerful scripture.

[Someone's comment: Scripture says, ďMy Father is greater than I.Ē] Some say, Ďwell yea He says that, because He was still in the flesh.í They say, 'well yea if Heís in the flesh.' But then we have something that I discovered, I never heard anyone else say it. Jesus had a God! Itís right there. After His resurrection, He had a God (John 20:17).

John 20:17  Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

So you think the Father had a God? Come on. Somebody will say, Ďwell how could you be God and you have a God, you are lesser than God, so it canít be.í Yes you can. 

We have to learn what it means to take the title God, itís more of a title, like somebodyís last name. Godís name is not God. God is a title. God is the same title that the heathers use. In the Hebrew itís EL - Elohim, El is singular, God, Elohim is plural. What did the pagans call their god? elohim, they called them el and elohim. 

In the NT we have Lord and God, Kurios and Theos, those are Greek words. What does Theos mean in Greek? God. Who is the Greek Theos? Zeus. Itís the same word. So you can apply the same word to a man or God, but they take on different meanings, it depends on which one youíre applying it to. We have knowledge and God has knowledge. Is it the same knowledge? No. We have a certain amount of power, God has power. Same power? No, it's a world of difference, but you use the same word to describe it. You know we have a certain amount of righteous imputed to us and God is righteous, which is the most righteous? Itís the same word though. 

It says when Jesus was raised, He was raised a living Spirit.

1Co 15:45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Was He a living Spirit before that? I donít know. I tried to find a scripture in the OT (the OT is big), that said ĎGod is spirit,í and I couldnít find one, you know about the OT God. In the NT Jesus Christ said of His Father.

John 4: 21 ďÖthe hour cometh, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall ye worship the Father.Ē
v. 22  ďYe worship that which ye know not: we worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews.Ē
v. 23  ďBut the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truthÖĒ

God is spirit. We have a statement like that in the NT. We donít have one like that in the OT, at lease I canít find one.

So could Jesus Christ be as mighty as God and still be able to die? Not only could He, He had to. Because thatís who died. The One who spoke to Moses, is the One who died. How did He die? Now no one could have killed Him, He was too powerful. But He could lay down His life. He could do it Himself and He did. Put all the scripture together. Christ said, ďI lay down My life, no one takes it from Me.Ē(John 10:17-18). Someone would have you believe that God said, You will die. No, He volunteered. He said ďI lay down My life,Ē no one takes it, He volunteered. But how could He do that? Heís the Creator of the universe! 

[3] "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM [Gk: I exist]" (John 8:58). "Ere Abraham came into being, I AM" (Concordant Version).
Well some say it means, before Abraham was, I Am He. What does that change? That doesnít change anything, I am He. Who? What did God say to Moses when he said, who shall I say sent me, when I go back to Egypt? He said you tell them, "I AM WHO I AM." Or in the KJ, ďI AM THAT I AMĒ sent you. I existed, the One who exist, I Am, thatís the One, tell them I Am sent you. Christ said, ďbefore Abraham was I Am,Ē alright. So, and the personage that spoke to Moses and said ďI AmĒ you go back a couple of verse and you see, itís God. It was God who said I AM, alright. 

Now when you go thought the OT, you read about ĎGodí and you read about Ďthe Lord.í We are going to find out who this ĎGodí and who this ĎLordí is, or is it the same one or who in the world is it talking about? Because if God is God and Jesus is God and all through the Bible we read about God, well which one is it talking about? What do we know about the Father - God? If no man ever saw Him and no man ever heard His voice. Show me something in here, that God said it. Because the second it was said, it canít be God, because nobody ever heard His voice.

[4] John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God...

Actually and literally this verse says, "God was the Word" (Concordant).

John 1:1-3  Öand the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by HIM (the Word) and without Him was not anything made that was made.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelled among us, the only begotten of the Father?"

The Word of God, that is the Word - Logos - Spokesman. Jesus Christ has a name on His side (Revelation 19) and that name is, ďthe Word of GodĒ (verse 13). Jesus Christ is the Word - Spokesman - Logos - representative - messenger of God. Because nobody has ever heard God or seen Him. So if God wants to convey something to the human race, He does it through His Word - His Spokesman - His Messenger - His Logos - Jesus Christ.

Now in Genesis how do we know that itís not God the Father speaking? Because no one has ever heard His voice or seen His shape for that matter. So when ever you hear a voice, itís not God... well not exactly. 

[5] How can we be absolutely sure that this is not the Father speaking in Genesis? Answer: "And the Father Himself, which has sent Me, has born witness of Me. Ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His shape" (John 5:37). Did Moses hear Godís voice? Answer: "Did ever people hear the voice of GOD speaking out of the midst of the fire, as you have heard, and live?" (Deut. 4:33). Did Moses see the shape of God? "you shall SEE MY BACK PARTS." (Exodus 33:18-23). This is Jesus!

[6] "For by HIM [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS were created by Him and for Him" (Col. 1:15-19).

By Jesus Christ... thatís right He made everything.

"Let this mind be in you, which was [is] also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant [slave], and was made in the likeness of men"(Phil. 2:5-7).

Now here we learn a little more of what this is about. When it says ďmindĒ it is the disposition of God Himself. Where it says ďequal with GodĒ it is the same amount or degree and so on. 

ďBeing in the form of GodÖĒ  is being inherently in the form of God. Inherently, thatís an interesting word, it means possessed at birth or the inborn, right. I thought now that is interesting, that's 'before' He became man, He was by birth - inborn. 

Strongís uses the word, He existed as a 'innate.' Existent as an innate birth, a right by birth. That is what it means, a right by or through birth. Jesus Christ was BORN. To which of the angels did He ever say, you are My son I have begotten you... as a little boy in a manger? He was His Son, 'from the beginning!' The whole idea of Jesus Christ, was to be a Son, from the beginning. Now it says. 

Phi 2:6  Öthought it not robbery to be equal with God,
v. 7  but made Himself of no reputation, and took on Himself the form of a servant(slave), and was made in the likeness of man.

So this was an inborn right of birth, to have these powers. What did He do? Where it says, "He made Himself of no reputation," the KJ margin says, He empted Himself of all His privileges. I mean He is so mighty and everything, I mean youíre not going to kill Him. He has got to reduce down, to something really small, compared to what He was. He voluntarily did that, ďHe took it on Himself,Ē you see. He was made low enough to kill. It says in Hebrews, ďA little lower than the angels,Ē so they could kill Him. How was that accomplished? He emptied Himself of everything God had given to Him. I guess God could have taken it away, but He didnít take it away, Christ gave it up.
Now here is a verse you might not think proves that Christ is the Creator.

[7] ďFor though there be that are called gods (theos is plural), whether in heaven or on earth; as there are gods many, and lords many; But to us there is but ONE GOD, the Father, OF Whom are all things, and we in Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ BY Whom are all things, and we by Him" (I Cor. 8:5-6).

Everything, ďall thingsĒ are out 'of ' God. The word "of" in this verse is ek ex and it means--origin, from, out of, like exist (to get out of, to exist). Here is the Concordant Translation "there is One God, the Father, OUT OF WHOM ALL IS."  If "all things are out of God," then certainly that includes Jesus. Where is Jesus Christ 'from'? Is He some 'thing'? He is the grandest thing of all. ďAll things,Ē are ek ex from the Father. So where did Christ come from? It says ďall thingsĒ are of or out of (ek ex) God. There is only one God, the Father, and we in Him. ďAnd one Lord Jesus Christ BY WhomĒ that means through or the channel of. There it is! 

Everything, all knowledge, the plan of the universe is out of God. But then it is channeled through Jesus Christ. Why?  Heís the Spokesman, and the creator, and the Savior, and the example to humanity. Because God canít come down and face us, face to face. Christ in His glory, in the OT, you couldnít face Him either, it would have blown you away. But He emptied Himself. Christ talked about "My Father, your Father; My God, your God." (John 20:17) 

So everything there is, is out of God and then it is through or by Jesus Christ, that He channeled everything that there is.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2015, 10:34:10 AM by Kat »


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Re: Nashville Conference 2007
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2007, 04:26:22 PM »

                                                                                audio 4/page 3

[8] The Prophets: "Searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of CHRIST which was in them [the prophets of old]" (I Pet. 1:11). Some argue that this means "the spirit of ANOINTING was on them, not that Jesus existed back in those days. Well letís read the next Scripture:

[9] The Fathers under Moses: "did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock WAS CHRIST" (I Cor. 10:4).
One guy argued with me, one of those that says that Christ was never the Creator, He just came into being. He said the Ďrockí was anointed. Well what God anoints rocks? It was Christ!  

[10] Jesus does acknowledge that Mary was His mother and all, but He said here; "believe that I came out from God. "I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world" (John 16:27-28).
If He just existed the first time coming out from Mary, then He didnít come out from God, He came out from Mary, you see.  So if He came out from God, He had to exist before Mary, right. So He was before Mary.

"I came out from THEE" (John 17:08).
"I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but He SENT ME" (John 8:42).
"because God SENT His only begotten Son into the world the Father SENT the Son to be the Saviour of the world" (I John 3:8 & 14).
He didnít send a spiritual sperm into Mary. He sent His Son!
1 John 4:14 ďÖ the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.Ē

[11] Where was Jesus before His human birth? "For I [Jesus] came down from heaven not to do Mine Own will, but the will of Him that sent Me" (John 6:38).

Jesus had a "will" before and after He "came down from heaven."
You know some of these verses I had just read over, then I think, Ďwhat did that say?í  ďI came down From heaven,Ē You know He didnít come down from the manger or something. It says ďI came down from heaven,Ē  But see you canít come down from heaven, unless you were up there.

When we say, Ďup in heaven,í we just mean Ďhighí as a realm. Not in the direction, up mean high, you know lift up your head up on high. It doesnít literally mean to look up in the sky, but to a higher level of spirituality. So Christ couldnít have come down from heaven, unless He was there.

[12] "And now, O Father, glorify You Me with Your Own Self with the glory which I had with Thee BEFORE THE WORLD WAS" (John 17:5).

That certainly puts Him before Mary.

[13] How long has the Father loved the Son? "for You loved Me BEFORE the foundation of the world" (John 17:24). Then Jesus had to EXIST before the foundation of the world.

[14] "GOD has spoken unto us by His Son by Whom also He made the worlds [Gk: aions/ages]" (Heb. 1:1-2).
The Greek word there is aions, but the aions began with the physical creation. So again He was there and He did it.

[15] God calls His Son "God."  "But unto the Son He says, Thy throne O GOD is for ever and ever [eon of the eon] (Heb. 1:08). This is God speaking, not that we are hearing His voice, itís just that this is what God is relating to us. Itís not in a actual voice, because nobody has ever heard His voice, but through inspiration, this is what He says. "Your throne, O God,Ē (Heb 1:08)  

I get a kick out of Jehovah Witness, they say, no, that is ĎGod is Thy throne.í ThatĎs the way it should be translated and not ďThy throne O God.Ē They say, God is your throne Jesus or God to you Jesus, is like a throne. No. Farther more, it is a quotation out of the OT. It is the same way there, Psalms  45:6  ďYour throne, O God.Ē   God calls His Son, God.  

You donít have to be eternal to be God. You just have to be like God, in all that God is able to do. God can create, God can destroy, God has all power at His disposal. When He gives that to somebody, that somebody is God. When you can do all that God can do, youíre God.
Jesus Christ said to His disciples, the last couple of verses in Matt. 28, remember He said ďall power in heaven and earth is given unto Me.Ē This is the way God is. God wants to give us everything that He is.

1Cor 15:28 ďÖthat God may be all in all.Ē This isnít anything that He holds in reserve. He will always be our Father, we will never be His father. Jesus Christ will always be subservient to the Father. It says all things are given into His hands, in that He is over all things. It says the Father, but the Father is not given unto Him, you know. But all things  are íunderí Him. Itís a good things we have that, are some people would be just too dumb to understand. But no, the Father is not under Christ.  

"The glorious appearing [the Father is not appearing] of the great GOD and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13).
It says, ďappearingĒ the Father is not appearing. Why? Heís invisible and nobody has ever seen Him. Heís Christ and Heís what? ďthe great God and Savior.Ē

"Now to HIM [Jesus] present you faultless before the presence of HIS glory [God] To the only wise GOD our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever(eon)" (Jude 24-25).

"And Thomas answered and said unto Him, my Lord and my GOD." (John 20:28).

Now that is in all of the manuscripts, itís not a wrong translation. Thomas called Jesus Christ ďmy Lord and my GOD."

[16] John the Baptist said that Jesus was "before me" (John 1:15), yet John was 6 month older than Jesus (Luke 1:57). You read things like that and you think, Ďwell what does that mean?í What did he mean He(Jesus) was before me(John). To understand that you turn to Luke 1:36 ďAnd behold, Elisabeth thy kinswoman(cousin), she also hath conceived a son(John) in her old age; and this is the sixth month with herÖĒ John was six months older than Jesus, but John said Jesus was Ďbeforeí Me. How was He before him? If John was six months older than Jesus and Jesus was before Him, He had to exist in some other form, before He was Jesus Christ the man, see. Now sometimes you wouldnít put these scriptures together, but when you do, there it is.

[17] "For then must He often have suffered since the foundation of the world?" (Heb. 9:26).

Jesus clearly existed back then.

[18] This one might blow you away. How could God give birth, to a God? I guess you would say Ďaí God, He is His Son, Ďaí Son, Ďaí God. How do you give birth to a God?
John 1:18  No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him.

Now we have always heard, that we know nobody has ever seen God the Father, heard His voice, seen His shape ever. The only begotten Son, He is the One who reveals who the Father is, right. The Concordant translates that ďunfolds Him.Ē You know, unfolds - unravels who and what the Father is to humanity. Because the first part said, nobody has ever seen God. But here is the point I want to draw attention to, ďthe only Begotten Son,Ē Son is not in some manuscripts. The Greek "Theos" [God] is in the manuscripts.
Let me give you John 1:18  the Concordant version and some others.

a. "God no one has ever seen. The only-begotten GOD Who is in the bosom of the Father, He unfolds Him" (Concordant Literal Version)

b. "No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, Who is at the Fatherís side, has made Him known" (New International Version).

c. "the only begotten Son, Who is God and close to the Fatherís heart" (The New Testament in the Language of Today By William Beck).

d. "No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son Who is close to the Fatherís heart" (New Revised Standard Version).

e. "No one has seen God at any time: An Only-Begotten God, The One existing in the bosom of the Father, He has interpreted Him" (Rotherhamís Emphasized Bible). Etc.

How about that. The only begotten God. Jesus Christ the only begotten God. Well Heís the firstfruit, right. When you read the Bible you read, ďIn the beginning,Ē but the word should be, ďIn beginning,Ē or ďA beginning,Ē and not Ďthe,í itís not there. ďIn a beginning, God - Elohim created the heavens and the earth.Ē Now Jesus Christ is the Firstfruit.
We just read, Heb 1:5 ďFor to which of the angels said He at any time, you art My Son, This day have I begotten you?Ē And we read over in verse 9, ďTherefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy FELLOWS.Ē

But we are going to be His brothers. We have to be begotten too. Jesus Christ is the Firstfruit of them that slept(1 Cor 15 :20), the Firstfruit. James says we are a kind of Firstfruits (James 1:18). In Rev. 14, we read that the 144,000 are the Firstfruits. Do you know what it actually says in the Hebrew, in Genesis 1:1 ďIn Firstfruit God created the heaven and earth.Ē  

Who is the Firstfruit?  Jesus Christ!
ďIn Firstfruit, God created the heaven and the earth.Ē
ďIn Jesus Christ, God created the heaven and earth.Ē
« Last Edit: July 23, 2011, 02:53:25 AM by Kat »


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Re: Nashville Conference 2007
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2007, 01:46:15 AM »

Audio 5


If Jesus is God and the Father is God and we read in the Bible about God, how do we know who it is? How do we know? 
So we need to clarify some of these things.
Here is an interesting verse.

Psalms 110:1  The Lord says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool."

Mat 22:41  While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 
Mat 22:42  Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David. 
Mat 22:43  He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, 
Mat 22:44  The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool? 
Mat 22:45  If David then call him Lord, how is he his son? 

Christ ask the Pharisees, Ďwho is the Christ or whoís Son is HeĎ? He didnít say He was the Christ, like one time when He ask them, Ďwho do you say the Son of man is.í He is just asking about the Christ and not saying He is the Christ, Heís saying whoever He is when He comes. The Christ, whose Son is He? They all said, Heís the Son of David. So then He said to them, well how did David say, ďthe Lord says to my lord, sit at My right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool."

If the Messiah, the Christ, is to be the son of David, how does David call Him Lord? Think about this scripture for a while, that will get your head spinning. What in the world does it mean? What is He saying? Can anybody explain that? The Christ, whoís Son is He? They said, Heís the Son of David, they got that from some of the prophesies. He is the Son of David.
Alright David was inspired to write, ďThe Lord says to my lord: Sit at my right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool." If Christ is the Son of David, how is it that David calls Him Lord? Thatís the point where it says, from that day forward they didnít dare question Him anymore. But what is the answer? 

Now we have this in the Greek, itĎs kurios and kurios? ďThe Lord( Kurios) said unto My Lord(Kurios).Ē You canít learn who the Lord is, because itís the same Greek word. But in the OT in Psalms 110:1, the Lord is Jehovah or rather Yehwah. You know that Yahweh is more correct, but Jehovah is so much easier to say.
So in the OT itís ďthe Lord( Jehovah) said unto My Lord (Adon).Ē But Christ said that Kurios is My Kurios. But in the Hebrew itís different, itís Jehovah said to Adon. Iíve got a rather lengthy explanation for all this and I donít want to take the time to go through it all.
So from this we learn that there are any number of things stated in the OT, that when you bring them to the NT, they apply to different people. If you look at all the prophecies concerning Jesus Christ, they are not talking about Jesus Christ, they are talking about some person in the OT, as applying to Christ through fulfillment.
So David is writing the Psalms and David is saying, ďThe Lord says to my lordÖ" we know who the Lord is, just look at the Greek word, itís Jehovah. We know that the second ĎMy Lordí is Adon. Adon means like my lord or my master, owner or whatever. So we got Jehovah, so who is Adon?

See the church teaches this is God the Father, saying of Jesus Christ. No, it canít be God the Father, because itís Jehovah and Jehovah is Jesus. He is talking down to somebody. So this is a higher authority talking down to somebody, who is Adon, which is used a lot for just a physical human masters. This is obviously David. Jehovah is saying this of David. We would say, Ďyea but David is talking, so how could he be saying that?í Well, they speak in the third person all the time. Youíll find that in the titles of some of the songs all the time. One is the song of Solomon, and Solomon is speaking and he talks about the son of David, thatís him. He says the son of David, thatís me. Well, Ďwhy are you calling yourself the son of David?í Heís just using the third person, they do that all the time. 

So youíve got, Jehovah said to my Adon, in the NT that becomes, God said to My Son Jesus. Because now we have who fulfilled this. I mean David did put his foot on a lot of his enemies, but not all. When he died he still had enemies. Thatís why he told his son to kill them and make it bloody. 

It is Jesus Christ who is going to have all enemies put under His feet. You read that in Hebrews 2:8 and again in Corinthians 15. How long does Christ rule? Until He what? 

1Cor 15:25  for it is right for Him to reign until He has PUTS ALL THE ENEMIES UNDER HIS FEET.
v. 26  The last enemy made to cease is death. 

So donít be fooled by these words. I mean people might try to trip you up and say, Ďoh you donít know what you are talking about.í You will have all the notes, but you will have to study them a little bit.

Where, Jehovah said to My Adon, in the NT itís, God saying to My Son. That how this is fulfilled. We can learn how this works out in fulfillment in Matt 1:1, where it plainly says that Jesus Christ is the Son of David. 

Luke 1:32  He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.

God says He will give unto Jesus the throne of His father David. So there is a scriptural reference that the throne of David really belongs to Jesus Christ. He is both the Lord and the Son. Of course the Pharisees didnít know that and couldnít figure it out. Christ tripped them up on it and didnít tell them the answer. 

Hereís an interesting thing in Genesis 1:1 ďIn the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth.Ē That can be plural because it says, Elohim, ďlet ĎUsí make man in ĎOurí image.Ē Itís a plural pronoun, right? Whatís interesting is you come down to chapter 2 and it says;

Gen 2:4  These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Jehovah/Elohim made earth and heaven.

Jehovah? Did they just slip that in there? Now in Genesis 1:1, Elohim created the heaven and the earth. In chapter 2, Jehovah/Elohim. So we have Elohim in chapter 1, now we have Jehovah/Elohim. 

I know Iím going to get this really out of sequence here, but I have to go with the flow as God inspires me. So Iíll just talk about it here. I mean we are being introduced here to what is really happening. But most people just donít see it, they just donít get it.

So we have God created. We always think of God as being the Father, always God and Jesus Christ. But here in the OT when God spoke to Moses, it wasnít God the Father. Because He spoke to him and no man has ever heard the Father and we already showed 18 verses, that proves Christ existed before humans existed. He was at the beginning. He is the beginning. He is the Alpha, you see. He is the beginning of the creation of God. He is the Firstfruit.

So when it says God - Elohim, who is it talking about? Itís the ĎWeí and the ĎUs.í Elohim is the íWeí and the íUs.í   So itís BOTH!

What have we learned in 1 Cor 8:6? All is out of ek ex - out of God, through Jesus. Keep it all together, just go over it and cross reference your Bible. Make a list of a couple of scriptures, next to the ones you are real familiar with, so you will remember those. So you will start to remember some of this stuff. Remember what we learned in the first chapter of Hebrews? You see, as we go over this more and more it will start to click with you.

Heb 1:1 God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers.

What, thereís another one. God spoke unto our fathers? Who is this God here? This is Theos, this is the God the Father, this is not Jesus Christ. In the NT Theos is God the Father, except where it says our God (Theos) and Savior, then itís talking about Jesus Christ. But this God here is God the Father. He spoke unto our fathers? Who spoke unto our fathers? Jesus Christ! Is this a contradiction? No. The speaking came out of God, through the Son, because Heís the Spokesman.
You got to get it out of your head that God is the name of Jesusí Father. God is not the name of Jesusí Father. God is a title that is used even by the pagans. Baalim was a theos, Zeus was a theos, all these pagan gods were theosí and elohims and els and adonay too.
But usually when it talks about God as Lord, itís Adonay, not Adon. But you see the Lord God and that shouldnít be really Lord. Because itís just confusing, because sometimes you have Ďthe Lord Godí or it will say Ďmy God is Lord,í in psalms. Itís Jehovah(Adon), but they didnít want to say íthe Lord is Lord,í or I think it is something like that. So they changed it to God, no, but it should be Jehovah Adonay. But since they always translate Jehovah to Lord, it would have come out Lord Lord and they didnít think that sounded right. There is just no consistency or not very good consistencies sometimes in the KJ. Thatís where Concordant is very good. The Concordant does not translate it, they call it Elohim. They leave it right there in the Hebrew, Elohim. But notice this;

Heb 1:3  who being the brightness of His glory (speaking of Jesus Christ) and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Okay back to verse 2.

Heb 1:2  has in these last days spoken to us by His Son(God), whom He has appointed heir of all things, by whom also He (who? God) made the worlds;

Who is the ďby whom?Ē Jesus Christ. But who did it? God. How? Through Christ. So who did it? They both did it, thatís why it is Elohim. ďIn the beginning ElohimÖĒ God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, created the universe. It was out of God, through His Son. Both. They are both the One God. Well why does it introduce, here in chapter 2, that the heaven and the earth was created by Jehovah/Elohim? Because itís letting us know who the Son is, for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear and all that.

So Jesus Christ is being introduced to us here. Why? Because Heís going to start talking. To who? To Adam and then to Eve, you see. Heís the spokesman and for the next 50 verses or whatever and maybe many more than that, itís always the Lord God or Jehovah/Elohim.

So letís do this, this is not scriptural, but I think it will help understand it and remember it. Letís do it this way, God is like a title, like family.
Iím in the Smith family. Iím the father of my Smith family. My son (who is no longer with us), but my son Blake is also a Smith, right. Somebody might say, ĎWhere do you belong?í I belong to the Smith family, Ray Smith is my dad, and Iím a Smith and heís a Smith. But Iím not my dad, my dad is older than me and greater than me. Think about that one for a second.

On this poster here, you have got the Son and the Father. Notice the Son has kind of a nice trim beard and the Fatherís goes way down to His belt buckle. So Heís defiantly older, right? Excuse me, how could you have the concept of a Father and Son, who eternally existed together? A Father and a Son, both eternal? Thatís like a contradiction of words, isnít it? Father is always older than the his son. A father is always first. 

So think of it this way, God is a title and it has a meaning. But donít look it up, because you would go nuts, if you try to look up the ethnology of the word God on Google or whatever. Itís a difficult word, they really have trouble trying to you know, some trace it back to sand script. 

Thereís the god of the Norsemen and the gott of the Germanic tribes. But as far as they can determine ethnologically, it means the Placer. The One who places everything. The beginning of everything that moves or Heís the Placer or Poser or the Arbiter of all things.
Itís a title. We say even the pagans use God as a title or theos or elohim or el. They used all of these different language words for their gods, it a title. Thatís why Paul said, ďas there are gods many, and lords manyÖĒ (1 Cor 8:5) in the world and they knew what he was talking about. He said, ďfor us there is but one GodÖĒ And since Christ came to tell us who He is, we know who it is, itís the Father! Out of whom, out of/ek ex, whom is all things. 

Jesus Christ is a thing.  He is the Son of God, the very image of Him. Well if He is something, where did He come from? Out of GOD! Where did everything else come from?  Through Christ! Jesus is Jehovah. Jehovah what? Jehovah/Elohim! Who is His Father? His Father, is the Father, Elohim! Fair enough.

They are one God, because you canít have two different perfections. There is only one perfection. When you reach ultimate perfection, thatís God. There is only one such ultimate perfection. If you are a part of that perfection, you are God. Thatís what God is, perfect. Jesus Christ is perfect, the express absolute total assumption of His Father That makes Him God. It isnít something He acquired, on His own. But I do believe He did a lot. And His Father gave Him those powers, when He was able to handle them. 
We are to be given power, when we prove that we can handle it. 
« Last Edit: October 07, 2021, 11:24:14 AM by Dennis Vogel »


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Re: Nashville Conference 2007
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2007, 01:49:54 AM »

ONE GOD/page 2

So whatever you read about God in the OT, virtually always, it could be a reference slightly different, but mostly not. In the NT we have God and itís speaking of the Father. Paul introduces every book he has written with that salutation.

Rom 7:25  I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

2Cor 1:2  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

And of course if you got a trinity, then Paul really messed up. 

1Cor 1:1  Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of GodÖ

Rom 1:7  ÖGrace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Holy Spirit is not there. If the Holy Spirit is a person, a personality of a triune Godhead or divinity and Paul has 13 books, but never once acknowledges the Holy Spirit, something is wrong with Paul. 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians, Galatians, EphesiansÖ etc., any book you open up, there is just those two.

Eph 1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus ChristÖ

Phi 1:2  Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:3  Grace to you and peace from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ,

There is no Holy Spirit. Not that the Holy Spirit is nothing or of no consequence, itís just not a person. Jesus Christ and God the Father ARE the Holy Spirit! Jesus Christ is that Spirit! 

John 16:7  Ö I will send him (the Comforter) to you. v. 15  Ö He shall take of Mine, and shall show it unto you.

What is He going to take of Christ? His Spirit. Where did Christ get that Spirit? From God the Father. But He is going to take of Christ, because itís going to be the personality of Christ, see. 

Paul didnít say, Iím crucified with God, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but the FATHER lives in me. No, itís, ďI have been crucified with CHRIST, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but CHRIST lives in me.Ē (Gal 2:20)  But see itís the personality of Christ, that is the spirit that lives in us and that spirit comes from God. So we can call it Godís Holy Spirit, even though itís channeled through Christ. Jehovah /Elohim, God the Father(Elohim), you know. 

[Someone says;  Isa 9:6  For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.]
Some will say wait a minute, ďThe everlasting Father?Ē Christ (Jehovah) says, He was a Father to Israel. Heís the eonian God to Israel. So are we understanding God better? 

Okay, letís take this a little farther. We read about God/Elohim, we learn about the Lord God - Jehovah/Elohim, and sometimes we hear about El. 
Now we know in the garden, Christ... though Jehovah is doing the talking, because no man has ever heard God the Father. So the Lord God (Jehovah/Elohim) said unto the woman, ďand the Lord God saidÖĒ Why did He say Ďsaidí? Because Heís the spokesman, Heís the Word. Heís the Word of who?  Elohim, and He is Jehovah/Elohim and His Father is Elohim. There is only one Elohim. So itís the Lord God - Jehovah/Elohim.

When we come to the NT then we read about God. Jesus Christ said, they ask Him what is the greatest commandment, He said ďYou shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mindĒ (Matt 22:37). The Greek says, you shall love the Kurios your Theos with all your heart and so on. 

Kurios/TheosÖ who was He talking about? The Father. Heís quoting the OT, that comes out of Deuteronomy, where Jehovah Himself says, ďYou shall love the Lord your GodĒ (Deu 6:5). Not Kurios/Theos, but Jehovah/Elohim. 

Well who are we to worship with all our heart? Jehovah/Elohim or Kurios/Theos of the NT, who we know is the Father! But Jehovah/Elohim (where itís quoted from the OT), is Jesus Christ. Who is it talking about? Itís always talking about BOTH. ALWAYS!

Even though we give Jesus the designation Jehovah/Elohim, it still includes the Father. Why? Because there is only ONE Elohim! He is the Jehovah, one God - there is the Father, one God and together they are the one God. You just have to believe the scriptures. 

John 10:30  I and My Father are one.

One what? One God and itís understood, We are one... one God. We two, are one. Whenever two are of the same mind and spirit, they are considered one.
Now we only have one analogy of that in the scripture, and itís of a husband and wife. Isnít it interesting when He says that they are joined together. Because when you are joined together, itís like you stick a plug in the wall. The plug that you stick in is the male and the wall plug is called the female. So itís when a man and woman join there bodies. They are literally inside of each others body, they are one, see, literally they are one. That is the most intimate relationship there is, on the human plain, sexual intercourse with a man and a woman, you literally become one body. Because it signifies being one in Spirit. But Paul says he speaks of this concerning Christ and the church in Ephesians. He says this is a great mystery.

Eph 5:28  So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself.
v. 29  For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church.

See the connection.

Eph 5:30  For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.
v. 31  "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh."
v. 32  This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

So what is it about Jesus and His Father, that make them one? I mean they donít have a sexual union, they are both masculine. How do they be, one? There is one other all encompassing factorÖ.. they are one Spirit! 

You could get a superficial feeling of this, when you have a group of men in the army, letís say the navy seals or somebody. They are so precisely trained to do one job together, that 6 of them function as one, see. They are multiple individuals, but function as one. We call it, I think itís Latin, Esprit de corpsÖ.. the spirit of the corps, the group. Thatís what Jesus Christ and God His Father have, they have a lot of Esprit de corps. They are one Spirit, itís the same spirit and itís the same spirit of perfection wisdom and knowledge, love and power. Same Spirit! How could they both have that and not be God?  But there is only one Spirit. 

Wherever God gives His spirit in this room, itís all the same spirit. Those of us who have that spirit, have a certain Esprit de corps with one another. Now we donít do it as well, I realize that and some of us are virtually strangers. But if we can talk to each other for an hour or so and know that we have that bond. You would trust me and I would trust you anywhere. Why? Because you have the spirit of God. 

[the section was taken from the Nashville notes]

"There is ONE GOD" (I Cor.8:5); "God is SPIRIT" (John 6:24);

"by ONE SPIRIT  baptized into one body" (I Co. 12:13);

"But he that is joined unto the Lord IS ONE SPIRIT" (I Cor. 6:17); "I and My Father are ONE" (John 10:30)

"There is ONE BODY, and ONE SPIRIT, even as ye are called in ONE HOPE, of your calling; ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM, ONE GOD AND FATHER OF ALL, Who is ABOVE ALL, and THROUGH ALL, and IN YOU ALL" (Eph. 4:4-6).


Jesus spoke the words of His Father and did the works of His Father (John 14:10 & 14:24 & 5:19).

Jesus Christ "declares the FATHER" (John 1:18). And reveals the Father to whomever the Son desires (Matt. 11:27). Jesus was revealing the Father to the disciples His whole ministry, but Phillip missed it: (John 14:9-11). Remember when Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM"? (John 8:58). He was also revealing HIMSELF as the God of the Old Testament.

Even the Holy Spirit we all have comes from God THROUGH Jesus Christ.
Jesus is that Comforter, that Spirit.
Our Saviour and our Brother.
The Son of God.

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