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Author Topic: Was "the rich man in hell"  (Read 14193 times)

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ugthemc

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« on: March 18, 2006, 08:56:50 PM »

a parable?

"And in hell [Gk: ‘hades’] he [the Rich man] lift up his eyes, being in torment, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom" (Luke 16:23


I've heard that the above passage is "not headed in the Narratives as a parable". and if it was indeed literal, then Mrs. Smith's whole arguement of hell not being literal is false
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nightmare sasuke

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2006, 09:16:04 PM »

It's definately a parable. Read Ray's article on Luke 16. He can explain it ten times better than me.
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mmjones76

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2006, 09:43:19 PM »

My brother asked me this same question just recently,

the account of the Rich Man and Lazarus IS a parable (as Ray's article rightly points out)  my KJV actually has the heading " Parable of the Rich man and Lazarus".  The parable tells us that the rich man (which IS ISRAEL) will now be in "hell" meaning "unseen" in favor by God.   Like the last post said, if you want indepth then read Ray's article.  


Mike
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Mickyd

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2006, 10:56:28 PM »

Almost everyone overlooks the following verses that appear just before the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man.

"And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided (scoffed at) him. And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; BUT GOD KNOWETH YOUR HEARTS: FOR THAT WHICH IS HIGHLY ESTEEMED AMONG MEN IS ABOMINATION IN THE SIGHT OF GOD. The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.  Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery." Luke 16:14-18

He knew they were covetous and he also knew they had also committed spiritual adultery. The Pharisees were priest of the Temple...Jesus was not suggesting that they were cheating on their wives...but cheating on God! There is not a hint of the Doctrine of Eternal Torment anywhere in the Law. But according to Josephus, in reference to the Pharisees, he says this:  "They believe that wicked spirits are to be kept in an eternal imprisonment (eirgmon aidion). The Pharisees say all souls are incorruptible, but while those of good men are removed into other bodies those of bad men are subject to eternal punishment"

"And beside all this, between us and you there is a GREAT GULF FIXED: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." Luke 16:26

This "Great Gulf Fixed" mentioned in verse 26 comes from Greek mythology...NOT from the Law!
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nightmare sasuke

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2006, 11:07:05 PM »

Why do you think Jesus incorperated Greek mythology into his Parable? That way they would see, yet not understand?
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Mickyd

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2006, 11:10:07 PM »

Quote from: nightmare sasuke
Why do you think Jesus incorperated Greek mythology into his Parable? That way they would see, yet not understand?


I believe he used their OWN beliefs against them to show their position according to those beliefs.
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nightmare sasuke

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2006, 11:26:41 PM »

I see.
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ugthemc

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2006, 09:36:39 PM »

Quote from: mmjones76
My brother asked me this same question just recently,

the account of the Rich Man and Lazarus IS a parable (as Ray's article rightly points out)  my KJV actually has the heading " Parable of the Rich man and Lazarus".  


Really? But what does the ancient greek text have it as? And where can I see for myself?
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nightmare sasuke

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2006, 11:33:04 PM »

If you would like to see how it was written by comparing it with the Greek, download the program off of http://www.scripture4all.org/

Even the Greek does not come out and plainly say it's a parable, but we know it is a parable because of the similarites it has with the other parables, and because Jesus "spake ... unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them" (Mat 13:34).
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broken

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2006, 02:40:29 AM »

Quote from: Mickyd
Almost everyone overlooks the following verses that appear just before the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man.

"And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided (scoffed at) him. And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; BUT GOD KNOWETH YOUR HEARTS: FOR THAT WHICH IS HIGHLY ESTEEMED AMONG MEN IS ABOMINATION IN THE SIGHT OF GOD. The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.  Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery." Luke 16:14-18

He knew they were covetous and he also knew they had also committed spiritual adultery. The Pharisees were priest of the Temple...Jesus was not suggesting that they were cheating on their wives...but cheating on God! There is not a hint of the Doctrine of Eternal Torment anywhere in the Law. But according to Josephus, in reference to the Pharisees, he says this:  "They believe that wicked spirits are to be kept in an eternal imprisonment (eirgmon aidion). The Pharisees say all souls are incorruptible, but while those of good men are removed into other bodies those of bad men are subject to eternal punishment"

"And beside all this, between us and you there is a GREAT GULF FIXED: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." Luke 16:26

This "Great Gulf Fixed" mentioned in verse 26 comes from Greek mythology...NOT from the Law!


To where in Greek mythology are you referring?  Just a question...

My understanding is that the "great gulf" is actually defined in the Mishnah as well as certain pseudepigraphal books, not the least of which are I and II Enoch in which the prophet Enoch tours the Luminaries.

One more point...what point are you trying to make by declaring that the "great gulf" is derived from Greek mythology?  I'm not sure of your stance there.

Brandon
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Falconn003

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2006, 04:29:05 AM »

ugthemc

In Luke you would see a pattern of PARABLES Jesus speaks unto the mass, not just one parable but many in succesion.  

How can anyone come to a conclusion that as Jesus spoke one parable after another parable, he would then go off on a tangent and speak unto the masses one true story, just for good measure.

Jesus did not have to resort to all of a sudden change the subject matter to a non-parable story for the reasons that  the parables themselves would not be understood, less Jesus explains them in private to his diciples.

Jesus like his Father is constant.

Rodger
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jennie

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rich man
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2006, 06:23:51 PM »

My Bible says in the heading this is a parable but whether it is literal or not, it's not a place I want to be!
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Mickyd

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2006, 12:47:36 AM »

Quote from: broken


To where in Greek mythology are you referring?  Just a question...

My understanding is that the "great gulf" is actually defined in the Mishnah as well as certain pseudepigraphal books, not the least of which are I and II Enoch in which the prophet Enoch tours the Luminaries.

One more point...what point are you trying to make by declaring that the "great gulf" is derived from Greek mythology?  I'm not sure of your stance there.

Brandon


I guess I should have just said "Mythology" rather than Greek mythology.

The Greeks, Babylonians and Egyptians all borrowed from each other and tried to improve and assemilate. It depends on from which source you read. Some call it a river...a lake...a sea...others just a space. It really all means the same.

The book of Enoch...if you've read it then you must know right off that it follows these discriptions in great detail. In places the book becomes almost caotic and makes little sense. The Luminaries are obviousely variations of Babylonian astrology that was very popular among the Jews during their exile.

One thing you may notice is that it uses the term "Spirit" as it is an immortal soul. A trademark of pagan writtings. But no wonder....it was written by Egyptian Jews and was very popular among the Pharasees in the time of Jesus.

In either case...the point I was trying to make was that the "Great Gulf Fixed" was not from the Law of Moses or the wisdom of the prophets, but from pagan sources. Sorry if I was unclear.
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broken

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2006, 12:59:51 AM »

Quote from: Mickyd
I guess I should have just said "Mythology" rather than Greek mythology.

The Greeks, Babylonians and Egyptians all borrowed from each other and tried to improve and assemilate. It depends on from which source you read. Some call it a river...a lake...a sea...others just a space. It really all means the same.

The book of Enoch...if you've read it then you must know right off that it follows these discriptions in great detail. In places the book becomes almost caotic and makes little sense. The Luminaries are obviousely variations of Babylonian astrology that was very popular among the Jews during their exile.

One thing you may notice is that it uses the term "Spirit" as it is an immortal soul. A trademark of pagan writtings. But no wonder....it was written by Egyptian Jews and was very popular among the Pharasees in the time of Jesus.

In either case...the point I was trying to make was that the "Great Gulf Fixed" was not from the Law of Moses or the wisdom of the prophets, but from pagan sources. Sorry if I was unclear.


Just checking.  Keeping you accountable to accuracy.

I agree with your statements...however, we must also accept that the "great gulf" is an image used by Jesus.  We cannot discount its appearance just because it was not directly derived from the Tanakh.  From there we have the problem of addressing precisely to what Jesus was referring when he used the imge of the gulf.  Was he condoning such an idea or simply playing on the imagery of the day.  In any case, you cannot possibly discard the image...its there and must be dealt with.

So, how do you interpret that passage?

Brandon

P.S. Oh, and you didn't address the fact that the "gulf" notion is described in the Mishnah, not simply derived from "pagan" sources.
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Mickyd

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2006, 01:10:46 AM »

Quote from: broken
So, how do you interpret that passage?


I stand by my original statements in light of everything else contained in the New Testament.

Quote from: broken
P.S. Oh, and you didn't address the fact that the "gulf" notion is described in the Mishnah, not simply derived from "pagan" sources.


I'm not really familiar with the Mishnah...please enlighten.  :)
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broken

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2006, 02:01:36 AM »

Quote from: Mickyd
Quote from: broken
So, how do you interpret that passage?


I stand by my original statements in light of everything else contained in the New Testament.


I read your original statements; what I'm missing is the significance of your assertion that the "gulf" is the result of Jewish assimilation of pagan ideas.  What point are you trying to make?  Does this make the use of the image invalid or does it change the meaning?  How are we to understand Jesus' understanding of Law and righteousness if we discount all that he says that is not explicitly derived from Torah or the Tanakh?

Quote from: Mickyd
Quote from: broken
P.S. Oh, and you didn't address the fact that the "gulf" notion is described in the Mishnah, not simply derived from "pagan" sources.


I'm not really familiar with the Mishnah...please enlighten.  :)


The Mishnah is rabbinical interpretation of the Tanakh.  Rabbis would take a portion of scripture and then write a long, detailed commentary.  For some groups who followed certain Rabbis, these interpretations were considered either on the level with the authority of Scripture (such as the writings of the Teacher of Righteousness at the Qumran community) or just less authoritative than the Scripture itself.

Brandon
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broken

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Re: Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2006, 02:04:49 AM »

Quote from: ugthemc
a parable?

"And in hell [Gk: ‘hades’] he [the Rich man] lift up his eyes, being in torment, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom" (Luke 16:23


I've heard that the above passage is "not headed in the Narratives as a parable". and if it was indeed literal, then Mrs. Smith's whole arguement of hell not being literal is false


This passage is most certainly a parable.  

That doesn't make Ray's exegesis of if correct; it just means that we should not base a solid theology of hell on this particular passage.  It does, however, shed light on how Jesus viewed the afterlife as well as the residing places of souls prior to the resurrections of Revelation 20&21.

In the end the passage has no bearing on the belief in or against hell.

Brandon
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Mickyd

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2006, 10:07:52 AM »

Quote from: broken
I read your original statements; what I'm missing is the significance of your assertion that the "gulf" is the result of Jewish assimilation of pagan ideas.  What point are you trying to make?  Does this make the use of the image invalid or does it change the meaning?  How are we to understand Jesus' understanding of Law and righteousness if we discount all that he says that is not explicitly derived from Torah or the Tanakh?


I have based my statements on the following points.

1. To whom he was speaking.....the Pharisees

2. What he said before the parable.

"And the PHARISEES also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. And he said unto them, YE ARE THEY WHICH JUSTIFY YOURSELVES BEFORE MEN; but God knoweth your hearts: FOR THAT WHICH IS HIGHLY ESTEEMED AMONG MEN IS ABOMINATION IN THE SIGHT OF GOD" Luke 16:14-15

These statements from Jesus to the Pharisees leads me to believe that what ever he said from this point on would be directed at them.

3. The statement about Adultery

"Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery." Luke 15:18

I said that Jesus was speaking of "spiritual" adultery. I offer the following verses as support...

"Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the LAW HATH DOMINION OVER A MAN AS LONG AS HE LIVETH? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an ADULTERESS: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man." Rom 7:1-3

"Then certain of the SCRIBES and of the PHARISEES answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, AN EVIL AND ADULTEROUS generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:" Mat 12:38-39

These verses, along with the well documented history of the Jews straying from the Law and fornicating with other beliefs in the Old Testament is why I believe that the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man was directed at those who Jesus was speaking to. The Rich Man being the Pharasees, Lazarus being "whom God helps". Strong #2976

The whole point of my post from the beginning was that everyone seems to overlook Luke 16:14-18 as support that Lazarus and the Rich Man is indeed a parable.


Quote from: broken
The Mishnah is rabbinical interpretation of the Tanakh.  Rabbis would take a portion of scripture and then write a long, detailed commentary.  For some groups who followed certain Rabbis, these interpretations were considered either on the level with the authority of Scripture (such as the writings of the Teacher of Righteousness at the Qumran community) or just less authoritative than the Scripture itself.


As I said, I had not heard of the Mishnah. If the "Gulf" mentioned is quoted in it, then I must take your word for it. However, I don't believe that Jesus was too fond of the work of the Rabbis of his time. There are many writtings that are a product of Rabbinical Judaism that are concidered "authoritative", such as Kabballah, which was a rabbinical interpretation of the Torah. This work turned out to be the basis for modern Satanism and was also around during the days of Jesus.
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Peacetroll

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Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2006, 10:27:50 AM »

Interesting posts.  I must agree with those who understand that it is a metaphor (parable).

Hell is also a metaphor for total destruction (netherworld) gone...forever.

Peace.
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Mickyd

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Re: Was "the rich man in hell"
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2006, 10:52:52 AM »

Quote from: broken
Quote from: ugthemc
a parable?

"And in hell [Gk: ‘hades’] he [the Rich man] lift up his eyes, being in torment, and sees Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom" (Luke 16:23


I've heard that the above passage is "not headed in the Narratives as a parable". and if it was indeed literal, then Mrs. Smith's whole arguement of hell not being literal is false


This passage is most certainly a parable.  

That doesn't make Ray's exegesis of if correct; it just means that we should not base a solid theology of hell on this particular passage.  It does, however, shed light on how Jesus viewed the afterlife as well as the residing places of souls prior to the resurrections of Revelation 20&21.

In the end the passage has no bearing on the belief in or against hell.

Brandon


Brandon,

In making this statement...

Quote from: broken
It does, however, shed light on how Jesus viewed the afterlife as well as the residing places of souls prior to the resurrections of Revelation 20&21.


By saying this you are saying that Jesus was confirming the immortality of the soul. If the soul is immortal, then the following verses are a lie.

"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them; as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast; for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again." Eccl 3:19-20

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the SPIRIT shall return unto God who gave it." Eccl 12:7

"For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thank?" Ps 6:5

"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, in that day his thoughts perish." Ps 146:4

Immortality of the soul comes from the same pagan sources as the doctrine of eternal torment.

Immortality of the Soul in Jewish Encyclopedia Vol VI pages 564-566

"The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is...speculation...nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture...The belief in the immortality of the soul came to Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended."

Herodotus: "The Egyptians were also the first that asserted that the soul of man is immortal."

Plato: "The soul whose inseperable attitude is life will never admit of life is opposite, death. The soul is shown to be immortal and, since immortal, indestructable...Do we believe there is such a thing as death? To be sure. And is this anything but the separation of the soul from the body?"

Tertullian: "For some things are known, even by nature: the immortality of the soul, for instance is held by many...I may use, therefore the opinion of a Plato when he declared 'every soul is immortal"

I find it strange that Tertullian who was concidered to be the "Father of the Western Church", left the Church of Rome to join a cult called the Heterodox Montanists. I guess that some of these people who had a hand in forming the Church, wasn't so sure of their own beliefs.
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