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[OBrenda]

 
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolators, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

OK everytime I read this, I understand most of this, but my mind stops and asks....just exactly what does Sorcerers mean?

Are we talking about your "David Copperfield" illusionist magicians, that could deceive people with science and physics that most of the common folks didn't understand?

If so who would be representative of this today?

It's OK to Laugh if it's a Stupid Question!

[Dave in Tenn]

G5333
φαρμακός
pharmakos
Total KJV Occurrences: 1
sorcerers, 1
Rev_22:15

G5332
φαρμακεύς
pharmakeus
far-mak-yoos'
From φάρμακον pharmakon (a drug, that is, spell giving potion); a druggist (“pharmacist”) or poisoner, that is, (by extension) a magician: - sorcerer.

In the OT, there are a couple of words translated 'sorcerer' from the Hebrew.  It usually appears in a list with other practitioners of occult arts.

As best I can see, there is no Greek translation of the OT in the New Testatment.

[Stevernator]

I've wondered if that would be applicable to modern day recreational drug users or maybe its just someone who is into some occult stuff.

[jakfr0s]

  Whoa! Ive done both occult stuff and drug use. I still smoke pot sometimes, and I pray He will fix that in His good and perfect time. I wonder if the Scriptures are talking about people like me. Am I a sorcerer? I posted earlier about what has been going on in my home, and I cant help but to wonder whats going on?

  If anyone does not feel I belong here cause of this I understand, but please say so now and I will come back when He fixes me. By the way what does this mean? 1Jn 5:16 If anyone should be perceiving his brother sinning a sin not to death, he shall be requesting, and He will be giving him life for those sinning not to death. There is a sin to death: I am not saying that he should be asking concerning that.

              Your Friend, George D.

[Stevernator]

Hi Obrenda!
Hmm, I don't think most people really believe that David Copperfield is using "magic" I could be wrong though.

Hi George!
I wondered about that because the Greek word is similar to drug as Dave pointed out. I also think about being under the influence of drugs is sort of like being deceived under a sorcerer's spell. I hope these scriptures give you hope.

Phillipians 4
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 14Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

 15That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;


1 tim 3:16
16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

Philippians 4:13 - "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."

I thought the sin unto death could be idolatry because of how the chapter ends. There is also the case of Ananias lying to God in Acts 5 and subsequently dying.

Your bro in Christ,
Steve

[joyful1]

 If anyone does not feel I belong here cause of this I understand, but please say so now and I will come back when He fixes me. By the way what does this mean? 1Jn 5:16 If anyone should be perceiving his brother sinning a sin not to death, he shall be requesting, and He will be giving him life for those sinning not to death. There is a sin to death: I am not saying that he should be asking concerning that.

              Your Friend, George D.

George,
Part of the reason that I kept reading Ray's articles was that he addressed the fact that Jesus came to save the LOST; those of us, who realised that we'd pretty much messed up everything in our lives and comitted "the worset of sins!" Don't be so foolish in thinking that you've made the worse mistakes or struggle with something that cannot be compared to what every one of us here is struggling against....its all sin! And God's got it ALL covered. Check out Ray's article about the Church that Jesus is building : The Lake of Fire - Part VIII WHERE IS THE CHURCH THAT JESUS BUILT?    http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html

here is an excerpt:

THE "CALLED" AND THE "NOT CALLED"

"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many [some, but not many] wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.

But God has chosen the foolish things [many translations do not insert the word "things" in these verses] of the world to confound the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And the base things of the world, and things which are despised, has God chosen, yes, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: that no flesh should glory in His presence" (I Cor. 1:26-29).

So we see that God calls MOSTLY those who are: weak, base, despised, nothings! Are we to believe that God is going to build a SPIRITUAL ARMY of Sons and Daughters by which He will conquer and SAVE THE WORLD?

Hard to believe, isn’t it? I think we can all agree that there is a great deal of work to be done with and to these "nothings of the world" whom God is calling to such a formidable, once-in-an-eternity task!
======================

Have a great day!
Joyce

[jakfr0s]

  I guess I was hurt and feeling very ashamed and guilty. I knew without a doubt that all of you here is struggling with sins of all kinds, and no one sin is worse than another right? Its just that Judgement hurts and my first reaction was to pity myself. I'm not saying any of you were judging me but that He was, maybe through you all, and I know Judgment is a good thing. Maybe I'm wrong about that, I don't know. Please forgive me, Ive learned something here the hard way.

                     Your Friend, George D.

[Kat]

Hi Brenda,

I think we can learn a lot about what a 'sorcerer' is from this description in Deuteronomy.  I think this passage covers all that may be implyed throught out the Bible by any type of 'magic' arts.

Deu 18:10  There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer,
v. 11  or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.
v. 12  For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you. (NKJV)

Here is Rotherham which has a bit of a variation in the wording to give a little more understanding.

Deu 18:10 There shall not be found in thy midst—One who causeth his son or his daughter to pass through fire,—Or who useth divination, hidden arts or enchantments Or who muttereth incantations;
v. 11 Or who bindeth with spells,—Or who asketh of a familiar spirit or an oracle, Or who seeketh unto the dead.
v. 12 For, an abomination unto Yahweh, is everyone who doeth these things,—and on account of these abominations, is Yahweh thy God dispossessing them from before thee. (Rotherham)

To me this shows pretty clearly in this passage what type of practices of which "these things are an abomination to the LORD" and must be purged in the Lake of Fire.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

p.s. George, I think we all here have done things in the pass that we were ashamed of.  We can not continue to allow these pass evil experiences to weight us down, but move forward into the light.

1Peter 2:9  But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

[jakfr0s]

  Sorry Brenda, I did not mean to take from your post. That was rude of me and I humbly apologize.

 
  Your Friend, George D.

[OBrenda]

George....You are more important than the definition of Sorcery!   
You are in the right place,...What Joyce shared with you is very powerful!

Kat, thanks for always being such a blessing with Gods Word.

Steve...I certainly hope people understand David Copperfield isn't real magic!
I think that before I understood that Satan was created by God, I understood these things spoken of in Deuteronomy as the "Powers that Satan Possessed",...that he was using to usurped the Throne of God.  Perhaps the Sin in these things, is believing and participating in the Deception that God is not Sovereign? 

Well if the word "Sorcery" can also be defined as taking drugs, I can strike that sin off the short list of sins I haven't committed...oh well...Thanks Dave

[Dave in Tenn]

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolators, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

You know, that doesn't leave too many out...and that's just guilt by the letter of the Law.  Take into account the Spirit of the Law left by Christ (lust=adultery, hate=murder, etc.) and most of the rest are guilty.  Then consider that if we offend in one, we offend in all...and I thank God for His grace of Fire now AND then.  And that's just for ME.  These folks are my neighbors and family too.







 

[WhoAmI]

I think the "drugs" subject is a joke. Because it is mainly defined by society. You have people who drink alcohol in large amounts and love to proclaim they don't do "drugs." 

So many things can effect your mind, emotions etc. The idea that you can be or become more holy by not doing certain "drugs" is nonsense. I don't smoke or drink. But I do take drugs. Most will call it medicine. When the law says it is OK to take them, then we call it "medicine?" I guess it makes people feel better to say they take "medicine" versus "drugs." Have you drank a Pepsi lately? Your taking drugs! Add another "do" or "not do" to the religious list.

[Stevernator]

Yeah good points whoami and Dave. Theres a lot of politics that go into it I suppose. Hope I didnt offend anyone.

[OBrenda]

I remember when I was a little girl, my parents told me and my Sister not to roll around on the ground outside while playing.  So naturally when no one was around we did it anyways.  After all what could be wrong with it, and it was such fun?

Then one night my Mom was combing out my hair, and she found a tick in my scalp.  To my utter horror, it was then that they announced to us that this is why they told us not to roll around outside.  If they had told me I was going to get a blood sucking insect in my hair, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have disobeyed them.  I actually felt betrayed by them for not explaining it to me.

But then I have this experience I had with the "evil/tick" actually embedded in my skin, that takes away all temptation or illusions of fun from it, were if I was just told about it, I may think the fun is worth the chance....
(It might not happen to me)   This is how I see Sin in my life. 

That is why I'm curious about what Sorcery means.
I think I understand better now:
We all have things we use to drug or distract ourselves from reality with.
We have all searched for ways to control and know what tommorrow will bring. 

Thanks For the Help,
Brenda

[Heidi]

George, I believe that you will really benefit from the biblestudy that Ray did on Repentance. It blew some cobwebs right out of my mind, that's for sure!!!! You my friend have nothing to be ashamed off.  We are all in the same boat, just different stories, names and places....you are exactly where you need to be.

Love in Christ
Heidi

[Linny]

If the sorcery mentioned has anything to do with drugs, I don't see it pertaining to marijuana (by the way,the Lord called me out of that lifestyle 18 years ago) as much as the Rite-Aids and Walgreens popping up on every corner. My poor mom, at 75, is sleeping 18+hours a day thanks to her wonderful pharms. It is the pharmaceutical companies that are making billions of dollars while drug reactions and overdoses are ramp id.

I see doctors prescribing people dozens of drugs in this..."pharmakon (a drug, that is, spell giving potion); a druggist (“pharmacist”) or poisoner"...as they are prescribed with the added fear factor when you go to the doctor.

Sorry but I have just spent the last 4 days with my mom who has been in bed sleeping since Sat evening only to rise to go to the bathroom. She has lost all quality of life due to her non-recreational drug use. 

[Dave in Tenn]

Bless her heart, Linny.  The voodoo witch doctors in Haiti don't make near as many zombies.  Time to call her doctor on the carpet? 

[OBrenda]

I agree...Linny,

There certainly is both Good & Evil with the subject of Pharm/Drugs.  Without a doubt there are some Corporations and others in the Medical field whom care only about making money.  I recently had to bring my Mom to the Mayo Clinic to sort out the meds she was on, her local Doctor told her she needed surgery or she would be dead in 3 months. Fortunately the Clinic straighten everything out, and there was no need for surgery.    This can be frustrating to watch loved ones suffer, but I believe finding the right meds isn't as easy as we may wish it. Although some Meds have side effects, they do prolong some peoples life.  We need to actively participate in our health care.  Your Mom is blessed to have you fighting for her!

What I am starting to understand about sorcery and its connection to drugs/spells is not the substance but the effects it has to dull our senses and reality. It's not the tobacco, or the Caffeine in a drink that is evil.  It is the substances importance in our lives over Others and our walk with God.  One can be come addicted to video games, and neglect to spend time with their family or take care of daily routines.  But while they are playing the game, they have some peace and have distracted themselves away from strife.  I have an addiction to Food, should we see the Food as what is Evil and become legalistic and forbid people to take it?

I welcome correction if I'm off here, but if God is trying to teach us sometimes through suffering, and we medicate ourselves with whatever dulls the pain, we won't learn anything.  I've heard one of the results of being a drug addict is you stop growing emotionally.  So you can have a 50 year old, who stops taking drugs who then has the maturity of a 19 year old.

I think to demonize a few substances is folly.  I think we would be missing the point. 

Just My Thoughts,
Brenda

[Linny]

Thanks guys for your kind comments. Dave your voodoo comment was hilariously, yet sadly, so true. 
The problem is that elderly people don't have one doctor. They have 4 or 5 all prescribing medication.

Being of the homeopathic, biblical nutrition leanings, I am very anti-pharm myself. I don't ridicule those who use them and I only offer my help if people ask, but I have found that there are plenty of natural ways to keep us healthy and heal us as needed without using any medicine. I am 10 yrs without a doctor's appt and doing quite well. I "treat" my husband and kids as well with what I've learned and we stay healthier than most.

I watched my dad use $1000/mo of mostly government money to pay for his drugs until he died in April after years of no quality of life. One hospital stay last year was $96,000 paid by us tax payers. Now my mom is on so many drugs I can't count them and 5 are for blood pressure. 

I read an article today where one of the big pharm companies uses poor families overseas to test their new vaccines. They killed 12 babies and are still continuing the experiment.

So when I see the word "pharm" in regards to sorcery and I see what Americans are taking these days, and the billions of dollars being spent, I can't help but think this is not God's way.

Hope I did not offend.

Please say a prayer for my mom. I am taking her to the doctor tomorrow as she is not improving and still bedridden (in my livingroom). I can't figure out what is wrong with her so we are going for a diagnosis. I will leave it up to her as to what she does from there.

Blessings to all,
Linny

[OBrenda]

Hi Linny,

No offense taken by me.....Can't say I disagree with anything you said!
Most Meds just cover things up, no cures, just magic tricks. (sorcery)
Went through it with my Mum, will keep yours in my prayers!
God's Blessings,
Brenda