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Author Topic: Abraham - Salvation  (Read 7374 times)

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jll

  • Guest
Abraham - Salvation
« on: December 12, 2008, 09:45:35 PM »

In listening to the audio of Mobile 2006, I am under the assumption that Abraham's faith included works. Works meaning that he was going to carry out the sacrifice of his son. Therefore he had faith with works. Correct?

What are these works if they are not "works of the law" or works brought by Gods Grace? ie; grace meaning paideuo - labor, work

If these works are through Gods grace, then how did these works come before Christ?

What am I missing here?



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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Abraham - Salvation
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2008, 10:42:26 PM »

In listening to the audio of Mobile 2006, I am under the assumption that Abraham's faith included works. Works meaning that he was going to carry out the sacrifice of his son. Therefore he had faith with works. Correct?

What are these works if they are not "works of the law" or works brought by Gods Grace? ie; grace meaning paideuo - labor, work

If these works are through Gods grace, then how did these works come before Christ?

What am I missing here?


Hello Jill,

Here is a link to Ray's study notes on a bible study from July 2007 titled, 'DO JAMES AND PAUL CONTRADICT? [Are We Saved by Faith Only or by Works Only?]' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4828.0.html). The link to the audio is on the top of the page.

This is a great bible study as Ray shows from scriptures the difference between works of the law and good works in great detail. I haven't listened to this one in a good minute so I can't remember any exact quotes from Ray, sorry.


Hope this helps,

Marques
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aqrinc

  • Guest
Re: Abraham - Salvation
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2008, 11:34:50 PM »


Hi jll,

I see Abraham (believed) and (acted on his belief) It (belief) was accounted to him for righteousness.

george. :)

Romans 4:3:
For what doth the Scripture say? And Abraham believed in God, and it was reckoned unto him as
righteousness.

Galatians 3:6:
Even as Abraham—believed in God, and it was reckoned unto him as righteousness.

James 2:23:
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith—And Abraham believed God, And it was reckoned to him as
righteousness, and, God’s friend, was he called:

In listening to the audio of Mobile 2006, I am under the assumption that Abraham's faith included works. Works meaning that he was going to carry out the sacrifice of his son. Therefore he had faith with works. Correct?

What are these works if they are not "works of the law" or works brought by Gods Grace? ie; grace meaning paideuo - labor, work

If these works are through Gods grace, then how did these works come before Christ?

What am I missing here?




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jll

  • Guest
Re: Abraham - Salvation
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2008, 12:27:48 AM »

Thanks all.

My concern is here.

From July 07 Mobile  ....until he did some kind of a work, Abraham's faith was as good as dead....now I know that your faith is real.

Now, Abraham's faith is real, therefore it must contain good works, which comes from Gods grace. It is not a dead faith. These works are good works, not works of the law.

If Grace could not come prior to Christ, where did this Grace come from?

Another quote from Mr. Smith, "What did any of the ancient patriarichs know of "saving grace?" Answer: Nothing!"

Is this "saving grace" different that just grace?

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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Abraham - Salvation
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2008, 08:51:53 AM »

Thanks all.

My concern is here.

From July 07 Mobile  ....until he did some kind of a work, Abraham's faith was as good as dead....now I know that your faith is real.

Now, Abraham's faith is real, therefore it must contain good works, which comes from Gods grace. It is not a dead faith. These works are good works, not works of the law.

If Grace could not come prior to Christ, where did this Grace come from?

Another quote from Mr. Smith, "What did any of the ancient patriarichs know of "saving grace?" Answer: Nothing!"

Is this "saving grace" different that just grace?


Jill,

Have you listened to the bible study audio from July 2007? Or look through the notes from the study?

Ray talks specifically about the very question you are asking; can you not access the audio?

Hello Jill,

Here is a link to Ray's study notes on a bible study from July 2007 titled, 'DO JAMES AND PAUL CONTRADICT? [Are We Saved by Faith Only or by Works Only?]' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4828.0.html). The link to the audio is on the top of the page.

This is a great bible study as Ray shows from scriptures the difference between works of the law and good works in great detail. I haven't listened to this one in a good minute so I can't remember any exact quotes from Ray, sorry.


Hope this helps,

Marques

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jll

  • Guest
Re: Abraham - Salvation
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2008, 11:47:50 AM »

Yes, I have listened to all of July 07' audio...
The audio is what brought about my question?

I do understand that James and Paul do not contradict each other.

Why and how did Abraham receive grace if it did not come from Christ?

Does anyone know?
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Abraham - Salvation
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2008, 12:26:05 PM »

Yes, I have listened to all of July 07' audio...
The audio is what brought about my question?

I do understand that James and Paul do not contradict each other.

Why and how did Abraham receive grace if it did not come from Christ?

Does anyone know?


Excerpt from 'Saved by Grace thru Faith' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5417.0.html):

That is true, but let’s ask this question….. look in Luke, this is speaking of Jesus Christ.

Luke 2:40  And the child grew, and waxed strong, filled with wisdom: and the GRACE of God was upon Him.

What does that mean?  If grace is what saves us from our sins, if that’s the big thing and that is what is taught in the church, you know we’re saved from our sins, we’re saved from death, we’re saved by grace.
 
It saves us ‘from’ something doesn’t it?  If you are saved…. if someone is drowning in the ocean and you save him, you saved him from drowning in the ocean.  If a fireman saves somebody in a burning house, they saved him from being burned in the house, right.

If we are saved by grace, what is it saving us from?  What did Christ need to be saved from?  Did He need to be pardoned for anything?  Did grace cover His sins or something?  No. 

Well there is another aspect of grace.  You know we have all these words, gracious, graciousness, gratuitous, liberal, benefit, favor, gift, joy, pleasure, thanks, all of these are words. 

But even Strong’s uses a phrase defining grace that I think if we don’t see this we are missing a lot.  It ties in with the thing that I wrote 5 years ago or whenever, in part 3 Lake of fire.  It’s where I say grace is a verb. 

Here is the phrase Dr. Strong says for the definition of grace - DIVINE INFLUENCE UPON THE HEART.  Wow, what about that! Grace is divine influence from God upon our hearts. 

Well now, did Israel have divine influence from God upon there hearts?  No.  Listen the most times you will find grace in the Old Testament talking about anything or anybody, it’s Moses.  It’s always Moses saying, ‘oh Lord I hope I find grace in Your eyes.’  He just means favor. He says, don’t be mad at me, let me do right - let me find mercy - let me find favor - let me find safety - don’t get angry God, let me find grace in your eyes, it’s in there about 8 times. 

Never once in the Old Testament is anybody ever talked about being spiritually saved or received salvation by grace.  It’s just not there.  I mean even King David, if God had divine influence on his heart, the way it’s suppose to be, why would he go to his death bed squeaking out his last words to his son, Solomon.  Telling him how he wants him to kill all his enemies and make it bloody.  Does that sound like divine influence upon your heart, from God?  It doesn’t sound like that to me. 

That’s what grace is, divine - divinity - God - Godly influence on your heart.  But now we’ve taken grace out of the realm of a noun, into a verb, it’s doing something you see.  Of course I said that a long time ago. 

Jesus didn’t need grace for any pardon of anything.  But did He need the influence of God, divine influence on His heart?  Absolutely.  That’s why He could live the way He did, accomplish what He did, never give in to wrong motives and temptations and all that.  He had this divine influence of God on His heart ALL THE TIME. 

So then we read Paul says, “But by the grace of God I am what I am: and His grace (divine influence upon the heart) which was bestowed upon me was not found vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all: yet not I….” (1 Cor 15:10) 

“Yet not I”  what?  He said I labored, you know what that means, work.  I’ve ‘worked’ harder than all of them, yet it wasn’t I that works... right?  Notice it wasn’t I that was doing the work, but the grace of God which was with me.  The grace of God... what? 

These things are all understood, notice it, I am what I am by His divine influence upon my heart, which He bestowed upon me and it was not in vain.  But I labored more abundantly than they all labored, yet not I labored, but the grace of God labored.  That’s what it’s saying, can you see that?  So what is the grace of God doing in Paul’s heart?  It LABORS, it works.



Eph 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

James 1:17  Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above[including faith, belief, good works, etc], and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

1 Cor 4:7  For who is making you to discriminate? Now what have you which you did not obtain [including faith, belief, good works, etc.]? Now if you obtained it also, why are you boasting as though not obtaining?

John 1:17  For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

John 8:58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM

Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth

Grace is God's divine influence upon the heart...the scriptures do not say grace did not come before Christ's earthly ministry; only that grace came by Christ. Christ existed before He began His earthly ministry with the apostles.

Abraham would not have been able to even leave his home country without God 'influencing' is heart to believe and have faith. Faith, belief, grace are all gifts from God...no one is able to produce these qualities inherently...it takes God 'working' IN a person for them to believe, have faith, etc.

This 'saving grace' that you are referring to is grace through the faith of Christ that works in the saints who overcome the world and are apart of the 1st resurrection. Hebrews tells us that NONE of the OT patriarchs received this promise.

Grace is divine influence upon the heart to GOOD WORKS...there are no good works on earth without God's divine influence.

Deut 5:29  O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always...

Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked...

As we all (including Abraham, David, Paul, Peter,) are subject to vanity (Rom 8:20) with evil & wicked hearts, it takes the grace of God for us to do any good works. Less any man (or woman) could boast (Eph 2:9)

Hope this helps,

Marques
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