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Forever and ever
Samson:
Hi,
Forever and ever is an oxymoronic statement. According to all current understanding of present English word usage, forever cannot be plural or plus anything.
I copied and pasted this sentence from George's last Post(See Above), because that's an important aspect to consider for those who come upon the phrase: " Forever and Ever" in their particular translation of the Bible, especially those unaware of the correct meaning of Aion, Aions & Aionios, because you can't have more than one Forever, since forever means endless, you can't have more than one endless.
Kind Regards, Samson.
TheRysta:
Wow! I had no idea that 'no end' was used in the New Testament at all.
I am still confused though as to how 'God is living into' the ages of the ages and the smoke rises for the ages of the ages. Doesn't this suggest that God is mortal?
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: TheRysta on June 23, 2009, 08:22:32 AM ---Wow! I had no idea that 'no end' was used in the New Testament at all.
I am still confused though as to how 'God is living into' the ages of the ages and the smoke rises for the ages of the ages. Doesn't this suggest that God is mortal?
--- End quote ---
No...a statement of fact is not a statement of limitation unless specified...the scriptures do not say God lives unto the ages 'only', the same way God states He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob...this does not mean He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob 'only' anymore than He lives unto the ages.
Hope this helps,
Marques
aqrinc:
--- Quote from: TheRysta on June 23, 2009, 08:22:32 AM ---Wow! I had no idea that 'no end' was used in the New Testament at all.
I am still confused though as to how 'God is living into' the ages of the ages and the smoke rises for the ages of the ages. Doesn't this suggest that God is mortal?
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: Arion on June 22, 2009, 02:57:55 PM ---
--- Quote ---To me it doesn't make any sense to say that the smoke rises 'into the ages of the ages'.
--- End quote ---
Also,
...just to dovetail into what others have already said your reading this and probably thinking about literal, physical smoke here. The book of revelation is spiritual and Jesus's words to John are spiritual. Jesus said that his words are spirit and they are life. There is no physical smoke that arises into the eons...it's a metaphor. I think it's also wise advise not to jump around too much. Ray builds on his teachings brick by brick. If you jump way ahead in the LOF series you might get real confused.
--- End quote ---
TheRysta,
Arion gave you the answer that Scripture and the Book of Revelation supports. Do you disagree with the answer or just missed it, Ray also teaches on the physical vs the Spiritual interpretation of Revelation.
Excerpt from: The Book of Revelation is a Book of Symbols:
http://bible-truths.com/lake1.html
LITERAL OR SYMBOLIC?
In many cases it is not difficult to determine whether a verse is literal or not. But, since we use figures of speech so often we tend to forget that much of what we say daily is not literally true. Many of us would hardly be able to carry on a conversation if we had to drop out of our vocabulary every word and every phrase we speak that is NOT LITERALLY TRUE. The English language, as well as all other languages, is just filled with symbolic and metaphorical phrases.
The first eleven verses of Chapter one in Revelation are an introduction regarding where, how, and what John is going to record for us. Much of this introduction can be taken literally, however, not all. Beginning with verse twelve, we are confronted with one symbol after another for the remainder of the entire twenty-two-chapter-book.
Everything written in Revelation is true, but most is not literally true.
The fact is there are many many truths in the Bible that are not literally true.
Jesus "said" that the bread He gave His disciples at the Lord’s supper was His body. Yet, Jesus Himself explains in other places that this was not literally true. He gave them literal bread, and not His literal physical flesh. What that bread represented, and symbolized, was indeed, His body--but not his physical body.
Jesus said that the words that he spoke were SPIRIT (John 6:63). Jesus Christ changes not. His words are STILL spirit and they certainly were spirit when John wrote the words of Christ regarding His unveiling or revelation. Just as we physically feed on physical bread for PHYSICAL LIFE, thus also we spiritually feed on Jesus Christ’s spiritual body for SPIRITUAL LIFE.
Understand this! Some think that by accepting the Scriptures as they are given (in the case of Revelation that means AS SYMBOLS), that somehow this "spiritualizes away" the teaching. What? It is the "spiritual" aspect of these symbols that IS THE REAL THING; THE REAL UNDERSTANDING! Physical things "pass away" whereas spiritual things are eternal! The very FACT that this book is written in "symbols" is proof positive that the understanding of them is SPIRITUAL and not physical or literal.
Symbols, metaphors, and parables ARE NEVER LITERALLY TRUE! But they powerfully demonstrate SPIRITUAL TRUTHS!
"This is the second death--the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:15 and 21:8) is a metaphor that is no more literal than "Jesus taking the bread...said, ‘Take, EAT. This IS My body" (Mat. 26:26).
Paul did not instruct Timothy to "STUDY" the scriptures if a mere casual reading is all that is necessary to comprehend its many deep and profound teachings. On the other hand, I believe that those who have "studied" God’s Word are able to open up much understanding to those who are not called to teach (even babes, or minors as our Lord stated).
I want to quickly show my readers just how impossible it is to assume most of God’s word is literal.
Again I state: All God’s Word is TRUE, however, much of it is figurative language which is not literally true to fact, but rather in what the figurative language of symbols, metaphors, and parables represent.
If the following section is too heavy for you, just skip to the next heading.
george. :)
Samson:
Hi,
Below is an excerpt from Ray's paper entitled: IS EVERLASTING SCRIPTURAL, I copied the last few
concluding paragraphs from this paper, they aren't specifically addressing the Scriptures in Revelation
dealing with the phrase: " Forever and Ever," but are other examples of how Aionian(Eonian) is used and in
some cases misused(translated World(Gk-kosmos) instead, because the translators realized they couldn't
translate it as "Eternity," as it wouldn't make sense(2Tim.1:9) in these verses. Read Below !
Comment: And is this supposed to somehow magically prove that "aionios" does not mean "eonian," and cannot be translated, eonian? I think not. I think you have exhausted your silly straw man theory.
You stated early: Therefore the Hebrew word olam in the Hebrew Bible, and the Greek word "aionios" in the Septuagint are indeed translated "forevermore," correctly.
Comment: Some argue that "eon" in the singular means "age," but in the plural it means "forever" or "eternal." Let’s see how the Greek Septuagint uses both the singular and plural forms in these two verses"
Singular: Micah 4:5—"ets ton aiona kai epekeina….for the eon and BEYOND." Well that can’t possibly mean forever for eternal, as there can be nothing "beyond" eternity.
Plural: Dan. 12:3, "eis tous aionas kai eti….for the eons and LONGER." Once again, there can be nothing "longer" than eternity Besides, how is it possible to have a plurality of "eternities?"
Here are just a few scriptures in which "aionios" cannot possibly mean ETERNAL:
1. Rom. 16:25—"…according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world [Gk: aionios] began." You have attempted time and again to set up a straw man by insisting that if "aionios" is "eonian," then it must be changed to a noun and translated as "of the ages." Well check this bit of translating genius out. We have the ADJECTIVE word "aionios" and the KJV translators changed it to a NOUN, "world."
Well guess what? The word "world" (kosmos) is not found in this verse, furthermore, neither is the word "began." The Greek reads: "…in times eonian." Do we really believe in "times eternal." What does "time," let along "timeS" have to do with "eternity?" And as Paul speaks of the "revelation" of this secret, how could it EVER be revealed if it was kept secret ‘ETERNALLY?’ Do you not see a problem—a CONTRADICTION in all of this?
2. II Thes. 2:16—"…and has given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace." "Console" is defined as, "To allay sorrow or grief of." "Hope" is defined as, "To wish for something with expectations of its fulfillment." Now then, according to this inane KJV translation of this verse, just how long are we going to have our "SORROW AND GRIEF ALLAYED?" How long must we "HOPE" before we have our hope fulfilled? For ALL ETERNITY? Nonsense.
3. II Tim. 1:9—"…according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." The word "world" is not found in the Greek manuscripts, the word "began" is not found in the Greek manuscripts. Here is what the Greek says: "…before TIMES EONIAN." So where is the consistency with these translators? Could they not deceive the readers by translating this verse properly? If "aionios" means "eternal" or "evermore" then HOW, pray tell, can there be "TIMES" "BEFORF" "ETERNITY?" Give me a break. This is not translating; this is out and out planned deception! They change an adjective into a noun, then change the noun to a different word, then completely leave out the word "times." This total lack of scholarship and honesty is reprehensible!
4. Jude 7—"Even as Sodom and Gomorha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." The Greek reads: "…experiencing the justice of fire eonian." Well just how long does this "eonian/aionios fire last? Is it really "eternal" as the Authorized Version and you, contend?
A. There is NO FIRE burning in Palestine since the days of Sodom anywhere, let along in the vicinity of these ancient cities. The best archaeologists can discern, Sodom is located at the bottom of what is now a sea.
B. Ezekiel 16:55—"When your sisters, SODOM and her daughters, shall RETURN TO THEIR FORMER ESTATE, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then you [Jerusalem] shall return to your former estate."
The judgment of God against Sodom was decidedly not, ETERNAL. Here is clear Scriptural evidence and proof that "olam/aion/aionios," etc., DO NOT MEAN ETERNAL OR ENDLESS TIME. Give it up, Walter. The doctrine of "eternal torture" is the most evil doctrine, teaching, or concept ever invented in the history of the universe. It is the MOST blasphemous thing that could ever be attributed our Lord and Father. Give it up!
Ray
Kind Regards, Samson.
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