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Marky Mark

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Angel question.
« on: August 28, 2009, 05:47:36 PM »

Was wondering if anyone had a definitive answer to these questions.

First this verse.

1 Peter 1:12 To them it was revealed, that not to themselves, but to you, they ministered these things, which now have been announced to you through those who preached the Good News to you by the Holy Spirit sent out from heaven; which things angels desire to look into.

If angels in heaven are of the Spirit[and not evil] does this mean that they are righteous,or does Gods hierarchy of messengers deem righteousness in some[Michael,Gabriel] and not others. Kind of like the elect humans at Christs return. Are the angels desires to look into the Truths of God the same as the desires of the elect? Or do all angels need to be judged,just as humanity does.

1Corinthians 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 
All angels? 

2 Peter 2:4 For if God didn't spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
Only when they sin?





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Re: Angel question.
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2009, 06:34:27 PM »

Hi Mark,

I found a few things Ray has to say about 'angels.',2600.0.html ---------

ALL of God's created celestial beings are "messengers."  Angel means messenger. From that Perspective, Jesus is a Messenger (Mal. 3:1-2).  If these messengers are bad, we might refer to them as devils, demons, OR adversaries, but they are STILL MESSENGERS. ----


Aren’t cherubs those cut little cubby babies with tiny wings holding bows and arrows with which to shoot people in the heart and make them fall in love? Actually, they are not.

Cherubs or cherubims are spirit creatures of great power with wings. God placed cherubims at the garden of Eden to guard the way of the tree of life. Cherubim were carved and made of gold, then placed on the cover of the ark of the covenant. Their wings were to be outstretched over the ark casting a shadow over it. Their wings were to touch signifying that the divided messengers of God will ultimately be united into one. Also they were to face each other with their eyes looking down at the shadow-cast ark, signifying that they desire to look into these deep spiritual things, but can as yet not comprehend any more than the shadow.

"And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be" (Ex. 25:20).

They desire to know the mysteries of God, but as yet, they do not:

"Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us thy did minister the things, which are now reported unto you in them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven; WHICH THINGS THE ANGELS DESIRE TO LOOK INTO" (I Pet. 1:12).

It is an interesting fact the messengers deliver messages on many occasions in the Scriptures, but they DO NOT TEACH! That is because it is we that shall teach them and judge them: "Know ye not that WE shall JUDGE ANGELS?" (I Cor. 6:3).

There are now two groups of spiritual messengers. One group is obedient to God and the other is not. One group carries out acts of good while the other carries out acts of deceit and wickedness. That is why we find in I Kings 22:19 that the host (a huge number, a heavenly army of innumerable beings; ‘cherubim’ in Hebrew means, ‘AS-MANY’) of heaven is divided on God’s right side (the good) and His left side (the wicked). But ultimately they will all be ONE.

"That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in ONE all things in Christ, both which are in HEAVEN [the heavenly host which is now divided], and which are on earth; even in Him" (Eph. 1:10).,440.0.html -----

Satan and his demons will be judged in the Lake of Fire just like the rest of humanity who are not in the first resurrection. There are many reasons for demon posession. Some are explained in the New Testament and others aren't. God doesn't tell us the reason for everything that He does.  Stay close to God and you will have no reason to concern yourself with demons.,100.0.html -----

Yes, you are pretty much on course. There are spirit angels (messengers) however, just as their are evil spirits who are used as messengers. The elect are to judge them all. -----------------

The phrase "guarding angel" does not appear in Scripture. And, as you probably already know, a much better and more accurate translation for angels is "messengers."

Now then, do messengers "guard" us or anyone? Do they serve other functions a the behest of God?

Yes, they do.  Here is a direct statement about just what messengers do:

"But to which of the angels [messengers] said He at any time, Sit on My right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool?   Are they [messengers] not ALL MINISTERING SPIRITS, sent forth to MINISTER for THEM WHO SHALL BE HEIRS OF SALVATION?"

So we all have "ministering spiritual ministers (angels--messengers) from heaven" performing many things in our behalf.

Notice that Jesus said in Matt. 18:10 that these angels "...always behold the face of My Father which is in heaven." The "face" is used in Scripture as that which is most intimate--the face houses the eyes which are the windows of the soul. The angels of heaven are most attentive to the very sincerest wishes of the Father. Next let's look at an example of just such an one actually performing a task on earth which came from the "face of the Father":

"And there appeared unto him [Zascharias--father of John Baptist] an ANGEL of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense... And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that STAND IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD [in the presence of HIS FACE]; and am SENT [they are MINISTERING spirits] to speak unto thee, and to show you these glad tidings" (Luke 1:11 & 19).

Now Gabriel is of pretty high rank, and as such may not be assigned to any one of us personally, but rather is used for the very most important messages. However, they are all ably trained to do their jobs. None has ever spoken to me directly... yet.

Now just because angels do not speak to us audibly and in plain sight, does not preclude that they do no continue ministering unto us to this very day.

Hope this helps your understanding a little better.

God be with you,



Marky Mark

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Re: Angel question.
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2009, 11:09:57 AM »

Kat,thank-you for the response,your post is right on the money :).

There are now two groups of spiritual messengers. One group is obedient to God and the other is not. One group carries out acts of good while the other carries out acts of deceit and wickedness. That is why we find in I Kings 22:19 that the host (a huge number, a heavenly army of innumerable beings; ‘cherubim’ in Hebrew means, ‘AS-MANY’) of heaven is divided on God’s right side (the good) and His left side (the wicked). But ultimately they will all be ONE.

19 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’

“One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’

22 “‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.

“‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.

“‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’

23 “So now the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.”


"That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in ONE all things in Christ, both which are in HEAVEN [the heavenly host which is now divided], and which are on earth; even in Him" (Eph. 1:10).

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9 And hed made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.



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Re: Angel question.
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2009, 01:46:52 PM »

Heavenly angels are not carnal men.

Here is a reminder of the forum rules...there have been a number of speculative threads & comments lately which needs to stop. Quit trying to teach on this forum, this is NOT the purpose of the forum. This goes to everyone, elders & newbies...stop attempting to push your personal beliefs on others and be content in what we DO AGREE ON.

Excerpt from 'Please read this before joining and posting' (,3.0.html):


This forum and how it is moderated, is different than most all religious based forums on the internet so please read carefully.

If you are considering joining this forum before reading and studying, please reconsider.
It would be beneficial to all involved if you take the time to familiarize yourself with the teaching of L.Ray Smith first.

This is not the place to decide if you agree with the teaching of L.Ray Smith, but a place you can retreat to when you do.

This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on

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Marky Mark

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Re: Angel question.
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2009, 04:20:28 PM »

Wow! As I studied the scriptures above I noticed something I'd never seen before. The word GABRIEL means "MAN OF GOD".

Then I found this verse 1 Sam 2:27 And there came a MAN OF GOD unto Eli and said unto him THUS SAITH THE LORD...
Sounds like an messenger to me.

And this one 1Sa 9:6 And he said unto him, Behold now there is in this city a MAN OF GOD and he is honourable and ALL THAT HE SAITH COMETH SURELY TO PASS...and who was the MAN OF GOD?...Samuel.

1Ki 12:22  But the word of God came unto Shemaiah the MAN OF GOD saying...

Now if angels are just men of God this would make sense because the men are A. Subject to sin and wrong doing and B. Don't know the whole picture and have desired to know or "look upon" things.

I don't know if this will help, but I hope so.


Hello Larissa.Ray tells who the man of God is in this paper.Hope this helps . :)

And so Paul tells us that we are His "garden" where there will be fruit produced, and we are His "building" where God Himself will dwell. But He also tells us that we will have our old man pulled down and humbled while the fire of His spirit burns the wood, straw, and stubble till all such evils and destroyed. And at the same time, God builds man up by refining and purifying gold, silver, and precious stones (the very character traits of God Himself). First comes the physical, the carnal, the Old man that must be destroyed. Then comes the Spiritualthe man of God.
"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a NATURAL body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body" (I Cor. 15:42-44).

First we are born into mortal bodies with carnal minds by which we build a plethora of straw, hay, and stubble. In judgment these things are burned up and destroyed by the God’s spirit, which is a CONSUMING FIRE. At the same time the qualities pictured as gold, silver, and precious stones are purged and purified by the fire of God’s spirit and made even better

"But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses" (I Tim. 6:11-12).




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Re: Angel question.
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2009, 04:39:25 PM »

Hi Mark,

The paper referenced below is a long one and very detailed. Ray did a huge study on many of the questions posted; in this and a similar thread started in the last couple days.

WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER? . . . Nashville Conference 2007

Excerpt from:,4472.msg34384.html#msg34384

Heb 1:5  For unto which of the angels…

Remember we talked about the angels called, sons of God shouting for joy and appeared before God.  You know when they were talking about Job and so on.  They were sons of God, angelic beings.  “But unto which of the angels said he at any time, you are my son, this day have I BEGOTTEN you…”  Created?  No, begotten!  You may not know about this Greek word, in the Greek there is no separate word for begotten and born, same word. 

You got to be careful, when Christ said, “except you be born again”  we are not born again.  But we are begotten anew, from on high.  Some of these words are left out of the KJ.  It should be “we are begotten anew, from on high.”   You are begotten once in the flesh from our parents.  Now we are begotten anew, a new begettal from on high.  And when we are born into the kingdom of God, then we are made where our flesh and blood is turned into spiritual bodies.  We will be like God, brother of Christ, like God.  So which of the of the sons did He ever say that?  Well He said that to His Son, but He never said it to the angels. 

Heb 2:10  For it became Him, for whom are all things(speaking of Jesus), and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
v. 11  For both He that sanctifieth and they that are sanctified are all of one: for which cause He is not ashamed to call them brethren,

There it is!  Did He ever do this with the angels, in His original creation?  Back there between the heaven and the earth, when they shouted for joy.  When He put the earth in motion and started pushing it around the universe and they shouted for joy and sang?  No.  They were created beings.  We are begotten.  But remember we only have the earnest, the down payment.

Like a conception, there is not a baby until it’s born.  Am I right doctor?  You are a OBGYN?  So Dr. Carol here knows all about what I’m talking about.  When you are begotten, when there is a conception, there is no baby, yet.  Not until they start to cry, then you cut the umbilical cord, now we got a human being, born.
So we will be born.  There is a big difference between being purchased or being adopted and being born into royalty, born into the family of God. 

Jesus Christ was born of God.  I’m seeing in the scripture now, that happened when He was a human, in Mary.  We got to go through the scripture and see where He came from.  Jesus Christ never once said, I came out of my mother’s womb.  He tells us where He came from.  I can show you 10 places in scripture, where He says where He came from. Not one of them says His mother’s womb. 

george. :)



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Re: Angel question.
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2009, 08:51:50 PM »

Wow Mark. Thank you so much for posting the clarification. Amazing!

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