Does God cause all things to happen?

[Kat]

Hi Roy,

I do understand how difficult this is, I think I just have an excepting nature is why I might get it more easily.  But let me take a stab at this for you.

As you know God is the creator and sustains all there is and this automatically makes Him responsible for whatever happens.  So He has a plan and in this plan He determined that human beings that He created required an experience in evil as a backdrop.  Now that was so that when He would eventually show us righteousness we would have this backdrop of evil to compare it to and therefore understand it's goodness better.  But what we do is indeed caused by our weak carnal nature and His creating us this way was not a sin in and of itself.  But He does take responsibility for creating us this way and will rectify this completely.  But it is our own weak nature created within us that desires for and is actually carrying out our own lusts... I guess that would be the rotten board.  But the rotten board is not evil in and of itself, it did not start out as a rotten board, it's the nature of things that it became that way.  Just like a piece of wood cannot remain perfect, all physical things must come to an end, so it will rot away.  Because God made it so that all physical things will not last, is not evil.  But He does take responsiblity for that.

Now carry this same analogy to human beings, we were created to be too weak to resist temptations to sin, that the nature of the way we were created.  But God does not do the tempting, because it's built in, it's automatic.  

James 1:13  Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.

James 1:14  But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.

Just like a piece of wood rots, it's our nature to sin, "it's OUR desires."   It was not evil for God to create us this way and He is responsible for that.  But we are accountable for our own words and deeds, He did create within us the weak natural for us to sin, but He does not do the sinning Himself, WE do, therefore we're accountable.  

And also there is no need for God to tempt mankind, because He has created beings (Satan and the demons) just for that purpose, to cause temptations in the world for this evil experience we must have.  It was not evil for God to create beings eager to tempt mankind to sin either, it was a necessary part of His plan.

1Peter 5:8  Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

All of this being as it is we know there is a good outcome for all of humanity, the few now, but the rest later.

1Peter 5:9  Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.
v. 10  But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you.
v. 11  To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

1John 4:14  And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.

I hope this was of some help.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[arion]

Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.

It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.

This is one of the most clear and simple ways I have seen yet to explain it.  If we were responsible then we would have to pay the penalty for our own sin.  God doesn't hold us responsible and God himself through his son paid the penalty for our sin.  Yet as the Juvenile we are still accountable.  The Juvenile might have to be incarcerated for a defined period of time to hopefully learn to do right and the Juvenile is suffering the fruits of the wrong that he did but it's not punitive punishment to the Juvenile as much as it is discipline in order to correct his behavior.

[aqrinc]

Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.

It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.

This is one of the most clear and simple ways I have seen yet to explain it.  If we were responsible then we would have to pay the penalty for our own sin.  God doesn't hold us responsible and God himself through his son paid the penalty for our sin.  Yet as the Juvenile we are still accountable.  The Juvenile might have to be incarcerated for a defined period of time to hopefully learn to do right and the Juvenile is suffering the fruits of the wrong that he did but it's not punitive punishment to the Juvenile as much as it is discipline in order to correct his behavior.

Every answer i have read gives a different but still partially correct explanation, ALL Is Of GOD. What a Day it will be when all the murk is cleared away and we can see and hear clearly.

GLORY TO GOD THE FATHER And Our Lord Jesus Christ.

george.

[cjwood]

excellent questions, and even more, the responses have been inspiring.

and that 'created, weak natural' within each of us, that sinful nature, is such a ferocious beast that it indeed wants to destroy us. and it can destroy us, causing us to stand at the Great White Throne Judgement, unless, we fight, fight, fight, and then fight some more this beast within us; remembering to dress ourselves each and every day with the armor which HE has provided for us. but, WE must learn from the experience of evil in our lives, and 'fight the good fight of faith' and resist, resist, resist the devil until he flees from us. as ray has said in many of his writings (not paraphrasing verbatim), that in this flesh we will never be rid of sin, but we can get to the point in our walk with our Lord, that sin no longer reigns over us (we are no longer a slave to sinning). yes, of course we will miss the mark at times, but it is with every missing of the mark that we must realize we need to continually seek the face of our Lord and Saviour.

the battle of this beast within IS the race we must continue to run, but; the Scriptures; ray's teachings; and this forum are the Gatorade we need to sustain our spiritual energy level.

claudia

[MePogo]

excellent questions, and even more, the responses have been inspiring.

and that 'created, weak natural' within each of us, that sinful nature, is such a ferocious beast that it indeed wants to destroy us. and it can destroy us, causing us to stand at the Great White Throne Judgement, unless, we fight, fight, fight, fight, and then fight some more; remembering to dress ourselves each and every day with the armor which HE has provided for us. but, WE must learn from the experience of evil in our lives, and 'fight the good fight of faith' and resist, resist, resist the devil til he flees from us. as ray has said in many of his writings (not paraphrasing verbatim), that in this flesh we will never be rid of sin, but we can get to the point in our walk with our Lord, that sin no longer reigns over us (we are no longer a slave to sinning). yes, of course we will miss the mark at times, but it is with every missing of the mark that we see must realize we need to continually seek the face of our Lord and Saviour.

the battle of this beast within is the race we must continue to run, but the Scriptures; ray's teachings; and this forum are the Gatorade we need to sustain our spiritual energy level.

claudia

A lot like I see it.  Guess I have a weird outlook but I think of our lives as "school" and lessons given us, difficult tests and blessings.  I know I'm probably making a fool of myself (hey, I'm old and yet still learning) but here goes:  We are tried and tested and blessed beyond measure to be here on this forum.  We have hurts that seem to never heal and lessons that seem beyond our abilities and, then, suddenly the clouds part and the sun (Son) peaks through.  It's not over till it's over.  Our trials are personal and different but it all comes down to LOVE; the greatest commandment.  I can't seem to get it right.  I grow prideful from time to time and my Father throws another foul ball at me and I fumble it.  I find myself angry and unable to love.  If I wish to walk the path of Christ, I must learn to say "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."  How amazing is that?!!!    I just can't seem to pull it off when things get rough.  Sometimes I'm even angry at God, may He please forgive me.  Why do you keep throwing these foul balls at me?  Well, He is the boss and He knows what I need to learn. 

One of the blessings of growing old is having time to see the value in unanswered prayers (if this sounds like an old Garth Brooks song, it is).  Our Father, in His wisdom, knew along what was best for us. I can actually remember things I prayed for 30 years ago and thank God for turning a deaf ear to my prayers.  His wisdom was awesome and my desires then so meaningless.  I'm sure I don't have another 30 years to wait to learn who the Boss is, but I've learned to trust Him.  Why must I go through the pain of life in this body of flesh and my repeated failures; falling short of who I want to be?  I have children I adore and their pain, when life slams them, rips me apart.  My own hurts rip me apart but I'm learning to trust.  We will all return one day to our Father who first loved us and we will understand that His Will Be Done and why.  Life, right now, boils down to love and trust.  Enough rambling from an old lady.

Blessing to all and thanks for enduring my meaningless thoughts.
Pogo

[9440geoff]

I'm old and yet still learning, too Pogo.
I identified with everything you said and it was meaningful.

2Co 12:7  And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
2Co 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
2Co 12:10  Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

I have to remind myself of the truth of scripture like this, every day.

Geoff

[Astrapho]

excellent questions, and even more, the responses have been inspiring.

and that 'created, weak natural' within each of us, that sinful nature, is such a ferocious beast that it indeed wants to destroy us. and it can destroy us, causing us to stand at the Great White Throne Judgement, unless, we fight, fight, fight, fight, and then fight some more; remembering to dress ourselves each and every day with the armor which HE has provided for us. but, WE must learn from the experience of evil in our lives, and 'fight the good fight of faith' and resist, resist, resist the devil til he flees from us. as ray has said in many of his writings (not paraphrasing verbatim), that in this flesh we will never be rid of sin, but we can get to the point in our walk with our Lord, that sin no longer reigns over us (we are no longer a slave to sinning). yes, of course we will miss the mark at times, but it is with every missing of the mark that we see must realize we need to continually seek the face of our Lord and Saviour.

the battle of this beast within is the race we must continue to run, but the Scriptures; ray's teachings; and this forum are the Gatorade we need to sustain our spiritual energy level.

claudia

A lot like I see it.  Guess I have a weird outlook but I think of our lives as "school" and lessons given us, difficult tests and blessings.  I know I'm probably making a fool of myself (hey, I'm old and yet still learning) but here goes:  We are tried and tested and blessed beyond measure to be here on this forum.  We have hurts that seem to never heal and lessons that seem beyond our abilities and, then, suddenly the clouds part and the sun (Son) peaks through.  It's not over till it's over.  Our trials are personal and different but it all comes down to LOVE; the greatest commandment.  I can't seem to get it right.  I grow prideful from time to time and my Father throws another foul ball at me and I fumble it.  I find myself angry and unable to love.  If I wish to walk the path of Christ, I must learn to say "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."  How amazing is that?!!!    I just can't seem to pull it off when things get rough.  Sometimes I'm even angry at God, may He please forgive me.  Why do you keep throwing these foul balls at me?  Well, He is the boss and He knows what I need to learn. 

One of the blessings of growing old is having time to see the value in unanswered prayers (if this sounds like an old Garth Brooks song, it is).  Our Father, in His wisdom, knew along what was best for us. I can actually remember things I prayed for 30 years ago and thank God for turning a deaf ear to my prayers.  His wisdom was awesome and my desires then so meaningless.  I'm sure I don't have another 30 years to wait to learn who the Boss is, but I've learned to trust Him.  Why must I go through the pain of life in this body of flesh and my repeated failures; falling short of who I want to be?  I have children I adore and their pain, when life slams them, rips me apart.  My own hurts rip me apart but I'm learning to trust.  We will all return one day to our Father who first loved us and we will understand that His Will Be Done and why.  Life, right now, boils down to love and trust.  Enough rambling from an old lady.

Blessing to all and thanks for enduring my meaningless thoughts.
Pogo

No, it wasn't meaningless, in fact that was the bit of encouragement I needed today. Thanks bro. God is so wonderful.

[judith collier]

To Everyone, this was so helpful today(sort of). All this reminds me of how many times we are to forgive someone, seventy times seven. Yet, I have been having trouble forgiving myself lately or believing God forgives me. I have been failing miserably. So, what's new with mankind!!! Yet,I can't seem to get over this hump. I know intellectually that God forgives us if we acknowledge our sins but exactly how does one keep moving forward? I am about ready to quit trying as I just am so fed up with myself and others. I have NO patience left, of which I never had that much to begin with. I feel defeated. Will someone please make sense out of this as I can see inconsistencies but can't seem to get clarity. I don't seem to care and am accepting this like it's ok. I am not worried too much and am not depressed, just complacent (an excuse ?) and also thinking thoughts that God has left me because of the many mercies I have received and have failed Him over and over and over. Love you, Judy

[Ninny]

Judy if that was unique to you we could be worried! The hardest thing to do is forgive yourself! We all are failures, we are what God has created..our natures are ugly and there is nothing good in us!! Sometimes just finding anything worthwhile in ourselves is the hardest thing we've ever done!! The one sure thing is we can't go by our feelings...because God will never leave us even though we can not "feel" Him! Many times we question whether He's even there at all! But guess what, Judy? God loves us even though we don't and can't love ourselves, I have experienced this so many times myself..just wondering how anyone could love me at all and then I'm reminded what great price was paid for me..and even though I may not FEEL lovely or lovable that doesn't phase God at all!! He goes right on loving me just the same! Sometimes a friend has to remind me that I am loved! So as a friend I want to remind you that you are loved by God and by ME!! And by a lot of other people, too!! Don't be condemned, Judy but be loved!!
Love you!!
Kathy

[judith collier]

Kathy, I could actually feel my heart letting go of a bit of the barrier I had erected. If I have a barrier I feel safer from hurt.  It's a terrible thing to hate but at least I don't let on I am vulnerable (maybe here but nowhere else) And it is not painful to hate but hating makes for separation from God.
How little love it takes for me to see where I am going wrong. And if it is true for me then maybe I will be able to see that barrier in others and know it for what it is.
Perhaps this is more of an emotional issue than a spiritual one. Now, how to change it because I hate crying.
What does an emotionally healthy person do with all the pain? Like children, one needs to soften them up at times with lots of love to break that stubborn hateful streak. There is no one here to do that except myself and the realization of God loving me is so foreign anymore. I seem to regulate how much love I let in. I have become so detached.
I think I will go for counseling to help establish new methods for myself.
Gee, just think if I were loved on a daily basis what I would come up with. Thanks, Judy

[firefly77]

Judy,
Don't feel like you are alone in this walk and how you think and feel about it. I have learned in the last couple of years to step into my "bubble"; it is safe there, and I don't feel the pain of my sin and the pain of other peoples' sin. However, the tragedy is becoming so "numb" that you end up being somewhat oblivious to what is going on outside that "bubble" and cannot discern when somebody is hurting and needs your help. I need the bubble to survive... I can either cry a lot, be vulnerable, become so tenderhearted that I am at the breaking point, or go into my bubble, numb out, and feel very little of anything. At least, I seem to function and can concentrate on my studies and the task in front of me.
I had an extremely hard day today; this day must have been the umpteenth time in my life that I had to scrap my dreams and start from scratch. It's like a giant glass bowl that falls to the ground and shatters into a million pieces. The only comfort in all of this is the knowledge that God IS ON CONTROL. Right now I am as frightened as any child would be in a thunderstorm... my bubble is not accessible either and the true emotions are surfacing. I don't like it, but I don't want to fight God's work in my life anymore; I am weary of trying. I want to be flexible if I need to be and letting go of (my) dreams may be part of the growing process.
Judy, I wish I had all the answers; I don't!!!
Angie

[aqrinc]

Hi Judy,

So you get those day often too; well sorry to say but so do i, everyday. Here is the secret to overcoming that i use; run as fast as possible to GOD.

1Jn 1: 6-10 (Rotherham)
6 If we say—We have, fellowship, with him! and, in darkness, are walking, we are dealing falsely, and not doing the truth;

7 Whereas, if, in the light, we are walking, as, he, is in the light, we have, fellowship one with another, and, the blood of Jesus his Son, is cleansing us from all sin.

8 If we say—Sin, have we none! we are deceiving, ourselves, and, the truth, is not in us.

9 If we are confessing our sins, faithful, is he and, righteous—that he should forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say—We have not sinned! false, are we making, him, and, his word, is not in us.

Oh Yes, you have my Love guaranteed; everyday.

george  .

[cjwood]

Here is the secret to overcoming that i use; run as fast as possible to GOD.

AND, even if and when we fall down 'running back to Him as fast as possible', HE can pick us up and put us right back on the road we were on, 'running as fast as possible to Him'.


angie and judy,
i love you ladies.

claudia

[Amrhrasach]

This is a great thread.

My last year has been spent with many hours verbally and thoughtfully flogging myself to the point of what seems like I've beat myself to a walking pile of quivering mental jello.   Most of it stemming from attempts to understand that there is no such thing as freewill.  So I've tried to convince myself that we do only God's will.  Ray says: "The human will is not free to change anything that God has pre-appointed. You will "will" according to the circumstances God places in your path. And you are not free to "will" otherwise."  

So how come I feel so rotten?  Because I am rotten.  But still, it is a hard thing to understand.   And even with that I would flog myself even more for not being smart enough to "get it", and apply it.    It's a vicious terrible cycle.   So I really appreciate the comments from Marques:  "Try not to become frustrated with spiritual truths that you have trouble understanding. Instead give God all glory & thanksgiving for the ones you DO UNDERSTAND. A good servant that is faithful with a little brings a reward similar as the servant faithful in much (Luke 19:12-19)."

And maybe that is just exactly Gods aim at this point.  Of late one good result from this mental degradation is becoming abundantly clear and that is I will only mentally and spiritually understand that which God allows me to understand, and not one minute prior to that time will I "get" anything.  And be thankful for what is understood at this point.  It will lead to even better understandings.

So, I understand Roy.....and Judy.....and Angie.

It's a humbling mental and emotional experience like no other.  We are simply not in control of our spiritual growth.  Sometimes it doesn't seem like there is a method to the madness.   So "trust" comes into play as well.  Yet another lesson in God's wheel of fortune.

The answers to the questions that Bob lifted from the BT site will be waited on with eager anticipation.

Gary

[judith collier]

Angie, George, Claudia, Bob, Gary, Kathy, it is so confusing some times how we can be trapped in thoughts and can't get out and how just some kind and informative words from our sisters and brothers help so much.  It is usually here that I reach out and that is because I trust all of you.
Just knowing we are not alone can boost us up! Someone said, " our relationship with God is not always vertical but horizontal also" and that is what helps me the most. Why are we so hard on ourselves when with others we are more than ready to come to their aid?
Is there really a devil, I know in scripture one tempted Jesus but truthfully I never put much stock in one tempting me, a little nobody. There must be because the tactics he uses are like that of a bully, getting us off by ourselves and driving us nuts. I am learning though not to have much confidence in my own ability. I do need to run and run fast to God like George said. Perhaps I will be more aware now that I am seeming to get this. Thanks everybody, love (God) does conquer and I am going to have to be more courageous in feeling my pain and really getting down that NO CONDEMNATION thought.  Sin, yes, but repentance and forgiveness always.
I am doing so much better today and asking God to guard my mind which is carnal (I never thought of my mind as carnal before, just the rest of my body). Is that dumb or not!
How one little word can make a difference. Love and prayers for all of you in your trials. Judy

[cjwood]

Perhaps Ray's ( God's ) timing on this  will help many of us. This is from Ray's Home Page on the Mobile Conference
Subjects.

WHY CAN'T YOU OVERCOME SOME OF YOUR SINS?

Why are many Christians spiritually frustrated?
Who or what are your enemies, and how are you to do battle against them?
Why are so many loosing the battle and when will they start winning?
Why do many Scriptures regarding victory over the flesh seem to not apply to you?
Has God called you only to become a failure in life?
When and how will things ever change in your spiritual life?
Do you need to learn more doctrines to better argue the Scriptures with others?
Is there a way to know how God views your spirituality right now, today?

I know I need to hear his teaching on this. Bob

me too bob, me too.

claudia

[MePogo]

This is a great thread and I've read and re-read several times.  I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer but I have moments I think I know the answer.  How does God view our spirituality right now?  WITH LOVE!!!  I have my moments of fear and lack of faith but deep inside I believe with all my heart that God is Love.  We work at being Christlike and we fail.  Just keep trying!  We were created to be imperfect.  How else could we learn and grow?  We aren't Christ Himself.  We are given challenges to overcome and we will often fail.  We must not lose faith and give up on ourselves.  I know I will never achieve perfection in this body.  You have often been here for me and I want to be here for you but the whole thing is so clean and simple and pure if you just chalk it up to love.  Don't give up on yourself because it ain't over till it's over.  God loves you and we love one another.  I don't have a fraction of the love and patience of our Father but I love you all and have faith in you.  None of us will totally overcome the flesh in this life but we will be cleansed when the day comes for our new life.  Just keep your eyes on the goal and love, love, love.

Pogo

[Marlene]

Judy, I love you  and I have been there done that before. When, we feel unloved it is easy to harden the heart. Just, remember God loves you like no one else can. When someone treats me like they do not love me instead of hardening my heart now, I ask God to help me to love like he does. Teach me to love those who do not love me back. That, is a hard thing for sure.  Most, people pick and choose who they love. I have been like that before. But, when God can help us love the unloveable I feel like I am learning to love like him. Keep on hanging in there Judy. We can really beat ourself up , when we see all our flaws and we hate them. But, God has the power to remove our flaws and it is a painful process for sure.

In His Love,
Marlene

[eggi]

Hi all. I read this on the bus on my way to work in the morning and that was really great! I was filled with joy by reading this. God bless you all!

[Dave in Tenn]

Agreed, Bob.

Since learning about the topics, I've been trying to make bets with myself on whether any of those questions Ray hopes to tackle are answered correctly and scripturally by the various churches. 

I'm betting 'no'. 

So far, no part of myself is willing to take the other side of the bet.