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Author Topic: Where was Paul?  (Read 3678 times)

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Amrhrasach

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Where was Paul?
« on: October 01, 2009, 01:02:15 PM »

I’ve been reading “HOW WE GOT THE BIBLE”, Mobile conference 2007.

There is one thing that is perplexing to me and perhaps someone can help me get over this hump.   My question(s): if Paul was the persecutor of the believers like none before him, then, where was Paul leading up to and during the time of Jesus’ crucifixion?  Since the crucifixion occurred at Passover with over 2 million people in attendance it would seem that Paul would be right up front with the strap.   

Was Paul converted at the time of the crucifixion, or at a later time?

It’s probably right in front of me but I’m not seeing the answer.


On a side note:  You would not believe how the fixation of not seeing the answer to this question is causing such a testing of my belief and faith.  It's aggravating because I'm sure it's elementary to many.  Probably just me making a mountain in my own weird way.   

Gary

From: “HOW WE GOT THE BIBLE”
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5815.0.html

“I’ll show you why this is so important, because if Jesus Christ was the Son of God.  If Jesus Christ died and was resurrected from the dead.  If that is a historical fact.  THEN YOU CAN BELIEVE ANYTHING THE MAN SAYS!  Anything and everything, you see.  Now let’s zero in on that a little bit.  Paul says;

I Cor. 15:5  and that He was seen of Cephas, then by the Twelve.
v. 6 Then He was seen of five hundred brethren at once,
v. 7  Afterward He was seen by James, then by all the apostles.
v. 8  And last of all He was seen by me also,

So Paul saw Him.  This is the Man they killed!  HE WAS DEAD!  Paul said, I SAW HIM.  Peter saw Him - the Twelve saw Him - 500 at one time saw Him.  Paul said most of those people were still alive and you can go and ask them.  Now he’s just talking about 500 people he knows of specifically. 

Listen, my friend, the late Dr. Earnest Martin pointed this out.  That at Passover season that Josephus tells us the city of Jerusalem could swell to a population of over 2 million people.  Because they came from the whole empire to keep the Feast.  When was Christ killed?  At Passover!  There was something like 2 million people there.  He was crucified up on a hill, overlooking the city.  Don’t you suppose they knew that they crucified this Man, who claimed to be the Messiah?  They were there on a religious convention and there is a Man hanging on a cross, who claims to be their Messiah and they didn’t know about it?  The knew about it!  It would not have been tolerated had the story been fabricated.  That Man came back to life and a lot of them knew about it. 

Fifty days later many of the same crowds were in Jerusalem for Pentecost.  Now these timid Apostles, that were running away from their own shadow at Passover, remember they all forsake Him.  But now they are boldly standing in the market places proclaiming that Jesus Christ has RAISED FROM THE DEAD!  There were many witnesses to it.  It could not be denied.  Now this is only one proof of whether or not some things is of historical fact.  Are there eye witnesses?  Yes, many eye witnesses. 

Josephus, one of the most renowned Jewish historians that ever lived, he lived in the first century AD and he said as a matter of fact, Jesus Christ did raise from the dead.
By the end of the century the whole Roman empire heard of this amazing event, and within two more centuries the entire Roman Empire was believers in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ!  The Apostles did not hood-wink the entire Roman Empire….Jesus really was THE SON OF GOD!    The events surrounding Jesus’ death and resurrection were recorded within that same generation.

When he was writing his letters he said, I know most of those 500 that saw Him at one time and you can still talk to them, because many are still around.   Consider one thing.  He both understood Judaic theology and the classic works of the Gentiles. He was an intellectual both among the Jews and the Gentiles.  He would have been the last person on earth to believe that Jesus was the Son of God.  Paul persecuted TO DEATH those who followed the teachings of Jesus.

Another thing is Paul was maybe the greatest single champion for Jesus Christ, of any man that ever lived and he was no dummy.  This guy studied under Rabbi Gamaliel, one of the greatest teachers of all times in the Jewish ways.  Paul was from Tarsus the center for Stoic learning.  You don’t bamboozle somebody like Paul.  Especially because he is out persecuting the church and then he turns around and he defends it.  What would change a well educated man like that?  What would change him?  For Paul to have his mind totally changed, required proof beyond question or contradiction.  PAUL DIED FOR HIS BELIEF THAT JESUS WAS THE SON OF GOD!  That He both died and was resurrected.”
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9440geoff

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Re: Where was Paul?
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2009, 01:51:10 PM »

Hi Gary,

Php 3:5  I was circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews. As regards the Law, I was a Pharisee;

This is Paul's description of himself, and although I'm no expert, I know there were a lot of laws (and still are) regarding what Jews could and could not do on the sabbath, and during feasts. My guess is that Paul was tied up observing the laws at the time Jesus was crucified.

Geoff
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Kat

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Re: Where was Paul?
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2009, 02:01:56 PM »


Hi Gary,

I found this timeline and it should help you see where Paul was during Jesus' life.

Timeline of Apostle Paul's Life and Missionary Journeys:

2 A.D. ?
Saul is born into an Israelite family of the tribe of Benjamin (Philippians 3:5). He is circumcised on the eighth day, in compliance with the law of God (Genesis 17:12, Leviticus 12:3, Philippians 3:5). Paul has at least one sister (Acts 23:16).

c. 12-15 A.D.
Saul goes to Jerusalem to attend a Pharisaic Rabbinical school. This school is headed up by Gamaliel (see Acts 5:34), who Jews consider to be one of the greatest teachers ever of Judaism.
Saul is personally taught by Gamaliel (Acts 22:3) and eventually becomes a Pharisee (Acts 23:6-8, 26:4-5; Philippians 3:5).

32 A.D.
A young, zealous Saul (Paul) consents to and witnesses Stephen's death (Acts 7:58-8:1), after which he leads persecution against believers of Christ (Acts 8:1-4).
Stephen, whose Grecian name means "crown," is stoned for his testimony about Jesus (Acts 6-7).  Stephen was one of the first deacons specially appointed by the early church to serve (Acts 6:1-6) and is considered the first Christian martyr.

33 A.D.
Saul (Paul) receives written permission from the High Priest (Sanhedrin) to search in Damascus' synagogues for those who believe Jesus is the Messiah.  Saul is also given the authority to arrest and bring these believers to Jerusalem for trial and punishment. (Acts 9:1-2)
Saul, accompanied by several others, travels to Damascus. As he approaches the city a burst of light suddenly appears and causes him to fall to the ground (Acts 9:3-4). He then hears the booming voice of Jesus saying:  "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" (Acts 9:4, NIV)
Saul is struck blind and led into Damascus by his traveling companions. Three days later Jesus inspires a disciple named Ananias to visit Saul and heal him of his blindness. After he is healed Saul is baptized and receives God's Holy Spirit. (Acts 9:4-18)

Paul (Saul) (first referred to as Paul in Acts 13:9) stays in Damascus and powerfully preaches the gospel.  Paul's incredible ability to prove Jesus is the Christ (Messiah) so angers Jews in the city that they conspire to kill him (Acts 9:20-23).  After learning of the plot against his life, Paul flees the city at night by having Christians lower him down a gate wall using a basket!  Once out of the city he travels to Arabia, where for three years he is personally taught by Jesus (Galatians 1:11-12, 15-18).

36 A.D.
After three years in Arabia, Paul journeys back to Damascus in the Spring of the year (Galatians 1:17). He then travels to Jerusalem and stays fifteen days (Acts 9:26, Galatians 1:18-19).  Although Paul tries to get to know other converted people in Jerusalem, the brethren are suspicious of him and stay away (Acts 9:26). Barnabas, a disciple known for encouraging others, takes Paul to the apostles and personally vouches for his converted character (Acts 9:27). Paul is then accepted by fellow Christians.

Paul's preaching once again infuriates some Jews to the point where they seek to kill him (Acts 9:29). When the brethren learn about the threat to Paul's life they escort him to Caesarea and then send him back to his hometown of Tarsus (Acts 9:30).

36 - 40 A.D.
Paul stays in his hometown of Tarsus from the summer of 36 A.D. to the summer of 40 A.D.
 
40 A.D.
Due to the rapid spread of the Gospel among Antioch Greeks, the Jerusalem church sends Barnabas to minister to the new believers (Acts 11:20-22). God uses Barnabas, after his arrival in Antioch, to add even more converts to the church (Acts 11:23-24). Barnabas soon travels to Tarsus, where Paul is located, to solicit his help with the newly converted Antioch brethren.

41 A.D.
Paul and Barnabas stay in Antioch for an entire year teaching the brethren (Acts 11:25-26).  
      
44 A.D.
Food and relief are sent to Jerusalem by the hands of Paul and Barnabas (Acts 11:30). After delivering relief Paul and Barnabas, along with John Mark, return to Antioch (Acts 12:25).

44 - 46 A.D.
Apostle Paul's First Missionary (Evangelistic) Journey

46 - 49 A.D.
Paul and Barnabas in Antioch

49 A.D.
Jerusalem Conference

49 - 50 A.D.
Apostle Paul Begins His Second Missionary Journey

50 - 52 A.D.
Paul Continues and Completes His Second Missionary Journey

52 - 53 A.D.
Paul in Antioch; Peter is Rebuked

53 - 57 A.D.
Apostle Paul Begins His Third Missionary Journey

58 A.D.
Paul keeps Feast Day in Troas; Romans Arrest Him in Jerusalem

58 - 60 A.D.
Apostle Paul is a Prisoner in Caesarea; Appeals His Case to Caesar

60 - 61 A.D.
Apostle Paul Journeys to Rome

61 - 63 A.D.
Paul the Prisoner Arrives in Rome

63 - 67 A.D.
Paul is Set Free from Prison

67 - 68 A.D.
Paul is Again a Roman Prisoner

70 A.D.
Destruction of Jerusalem's Second Temple by the Romans.


mercy, peace and love
Kat

 
« Last Edit: October 01, 2009, 02:11:14 PM by Kat »
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NoviceBeliever

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Re: Where was Paul?
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2009, 02:06:50 PM »

Thank you so much for this timely and edifying topic and the posts!  I am in the midst of reading ACTs and this is a wonderful thread. NB
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Amrhrasach

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Re: Where was Paul?
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2009, 02:49:36 PM »


Hi Gary,

I found this timeline and it should help you see where Paul was during Jesus' life.

Timeline of Apostle Paul's Life and Missionary Journeys:


33 A.D.
Saul (Paul) receives written permission from the High Priest (Sanhedrin) to search in Damascus' synagogues for those who believe Jesus is the Messiah.  Saul is also given the authority to arrest and bring these believers to Jerusalem for trial and punishment. (Acts 9:1-2)
Saul, accompanied by several others, travels to Damascus. As he approaches the city a burst of light suddenly appears and causes him to fall to the ground (Acts 9:3-4). He then hears the booming voice of Jesus saying:  "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" (Acts 9:4, NIV)Saul is struck blind and led into Damascus by his traveling companions. Three days later Jesus inspires a disciple named Ananias to visit Saul and heal him of his blindness. After he is healed Saul is baptized and receives God's Holy Spirit. (Acts 9:4-18)

Paul (Saul) (first referred to as Paul in Acts 13:9) stays in Damascus and powerfully preaches the gospel.  Paul's incredible ability to prove Jesus is the Christ (Messiah) so angers Jews in the city that they conspire to kill him (Acts 9:20-23).  After learning of the plot against his life, Paul flees the city at night by having Christians lower him down a gate wall using a basket!  Once out of the city he travels to Arabia, where for three years he is personally taught by Jesus (Galatians 1:11-12, 15-18).

mercy, peace and love
Kat

 

So often I'm such a simpleton that I amaze even myself. 

Thank you Kat and Geoff.

In what year was Jesus crucified? (That may seem dumb, but it isn't)

Gary
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Kat

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Re: Where was Paul?
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2009, 03:37:40 PM »


Hi Gary,

Quote
In what year was Jesus crucified? (That may seem dumb, but it isn't)

Don't hesitate to ask these questions, they are without a doubt a help to many.

http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html ------------------

THE CHURCH OF GOD FROM OUR COMMON ERA—YEAR "0" A.D.

Actually there never was a year "0"—there was "1" B.C. and "1" A.D., but no one apparently ever thought of a year "0" for the starting point of our Common Era (anno Domini, The Year of Our Lord). But then again, Jesus was not born on what would have been year zero anyway, due to the fact that Jesus was born a few years BEFORE our A.D. or Common Era which means Christ was born B.C. or (BEFORE Christ).
-----------------------------------------------------

So Jesus was born a few years before A.D. which would put it on about 3-4 B.C.  Therefore, if Jesus was crucified at the age of 33, it stands to reason that the year he died would actually be somewhere around 29-30 A.D. according to our present calendar.  Another point I will add, it is believed that Stephen was stoned to death in 32-34 A.D. in Jerusalem and is considered the first Christian martyr.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

« Last Edit: October 01, 2009, 04:07:41 PM by Kat »
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Patrick

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Re: Where was Paul?
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2009, 03:40:08 PM »

An addition to what Kat has already posted.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10047.msg79109.html#new

Quote from: Ray
Some of these dates, I’ll put the exact date that I have from some of my timelines and sometimes I won’t use that, because there are various dates on some of these things.  Some of them I’ll only put it a year off one way or the other.

Christ born in 3 BC; Christ resurrected in 30 AD.
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Marky Mark

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Re: Where was Paul?
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2009, 04:10:05 PM »

Quote
33 A.D.[/b]
Saul (Paul) receives written permission from the High Priest (Sanhedrin) to search in Damascus' synagogues for those who believe Jesus is the Messiah.  Saul is also given the authority to arrest and bring these believers to Jerusalem for trial and punishment. (Acts 9:1-2)
Saul, accompanied by several others, travels to Damascus. As he approaches the city a burst of light suddenly appears and causes him to fall to the ground (Acts 9:3-4). He then hears the booming voice of Jesus saying:  "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" (Acts 9:4, NIV)
Saul is struck blind and led into Damascus by his traveling companions. Three days later Jesus inspires a disciple named Ananias to visit Saul and heal him of his blindness. After he is healed Saul is baptized and receives God's Holy Spirit. (Acts 9:4-18)

Paul (Saul) (first referred to as Paul in Acts 13:9) stays in Damascus and powerfully preaches the gospel.  Paul's incredible ability to prove Jesus is the Christ (Messiah) so angers Jews in the city that they conspire to kill him (Acts 9:20-23).  After learning of the plot against his life, Paul flees the city at night by having Christians lower him down a gate wall using a basket!  Once out of the city he travels to Arabia, where for three years he is personally taught by Jesus (Galatians 1:11-12, 15-18).



Quote
Christ born in 3 BC; Christ resurrected in 30 AD.

Was wondering if its just me or is there some type of time line discrepancy in what Kat posted? And if Paul was taught by Jesus, was it in the flesh? Or was it in Spirit?

TIA



Mark
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Amrhrasach

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Re: Where was Paul?
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2009, 04:23:38 PM »

I’ve been reading “HOW WE GOT THE BIBLE”, Mobile conference 2007.

There is one thing that is perplexing to me and perhaps someone can help me get over this hump.   My question(s): if Paul was the persecutor of the believers like none before him, then, where was Paul leading up to and during the time of Jesus’ crucifixion?  Since the crucifixion occurred at Passover with over 2 million people in attendance it would seem that Paul would be right up front with the strap.    



Now I must dig even deeper.  Here's why:

2 AD (aproximate) Saul (Paul) is born.

32 AD he leads the persecution against the christians and consents to Stephens death.

30 AD Jesus is crucified and resurrected.

Paul is converted after Jesus is crucified.

So, Paul is at a young man age, 26-28 or so, and has been studying since the approximate age of 10.  By the age of 26-28 he is well equipped to follow the very letter of the law, as he states of himself.   Not yet converted and persecuting the christians.

Now we have the time of the passover and over 2 million people are in attendance to observe this sacred time.  Josephus writes of the event and Jesus being crucified.   Paul surely would have been there at this time.   Why isn't it written of, or maybe it is, that Paul--was--was not-- involved in crucifying our Lord.

I am stuck, here, at that point.....again.

Again it may not be important to anyone else but it is to me in order to understand why Paul was:

A-conveniently absent perhaps?
B-in another city studying? (this may be logical)
C-in another city persecuting?  (this would not seem logical)

Is this something we may never know?

Gary

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Amrhrasach

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Re: Where was Paul?
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2009, 06:10:38 PM »

I’ve been reading “HOW WE GOT THE BIBLE”, Mobile conference 2007.

There is one thing that is perplexing to me and perhaps someone can help me get over this hump.   My question(s): if Paul was the persecutor of the believers like none before him, then, where was Paul leading up to and during the time of Jesus’ crucifixion?  Since the crucifixion occurred at Passover with over 2 million people in attendance it would seem that Paul would be right up front with the strap.    



Now I must dig even deeper.  Here's why:

2 AD (aproximate) Saul (Paul) is born.

32 AD he leads the persecution against the christians and consents to Stephens death.

30 AD Jesus is crucified and resurrected.

Paul is converted after Jesus is crucified.

So, Paul is at a young man age, 26-28 or so, and has been studying since the approximate age of 10.  By the age of 26-28 he is well equipped to follow the very letter of the law, as he states of himself.   Not yet converted and persecuting the christians.

Now we have the time of the passover and over 2 million people are in attendance to observe this sacred time.  Josephus writes of the event and Jesus being crucified.   Paul surely would have been there at this time.  Why isn't it written of, or maybe it is, that Paul--was--was not-- involved in crucifying our Lord.[/u]

I am stuck, here, at that point.....again.

Again it may not be important to anyone else but it is to me in order to understand why Paul was:

A-conveniently absent perhaps?
B-in another city studying? (this may be logical)
C-in another city persecuting?  (this would not seem logical)

Is this something we may never know?

Gary



One correction to the above underlined.

I remember reading this many times and I believe it applies here in the sense of "spiritual" matters.


Ray says: 

"And so we learn that God converted the world’s worst sinner in a matter of seconds. We learned that The Father inspired Jesus to pray: "Forgive them, for they know not what they do." We also learned that the "them" in this prayer includes the whole world, for the Scriptures plainly tell us that it is the whole world that is accountable for Christ’s Crucifixion, even though it was performed by the express foreordained will of the Father. "

http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html

Paul (Saul) was/is as guilty as any of us in crucifying the Lord.

But, it's the physical location of Paul that I'm really asking about.   May never know.

Gary
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Where was Paul?
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2009, 06:39:11 PM »

Gary, there is no mention of Saul/Paul during the ministry of Christ as recorded in the Gospels.  What we have in scripture is him persecuting the early Church and specifically being present and being in full support of the stoning of Stephen.  He's just not mentioned by name in any of the Gospels, so we don't know where he was.  He doesn't show up in the chronological history recorded the scripture until after the resurrection.  Clearly he is unconverted at this point.  

After the resurrection, he is on his way to Damascus to continue his recently-acquired mission of persecuting the believers in Christ.  This is where he is blinded by Christ and falls from his horse, and has his name changed from Saul to Paul.  This is the point at which he is converted.  There is more that follows this history in Acts.  

Most of the rest we know about Paul, we know from his own writings.  He is the one who describes himself as the chief of sinners, and reveals more about his background as a Pharisee of the Pharisees.  

We know from the Gospels that Christ had quite a bit of contact with Pharisees in general.  We know He had a low opinion of them, to put it midly.  We do NOT know from Scripture whether Saul (later to be Paul) had any direct contact with Christ while He was alive pre-crucifixion.  I'm of a mind to remain silent where Scripture is silent.  No...I don't think there is any way to 'know' whether he encountered Jesus in the flesh before the resurrection.  

It's very clear from Scripture that Saul was anti-Christ and worked against the earliest church after the resurrection of Jesus.  I think it's a safe assumption that He was in full agreement with his 'party' in rejecting Christ during the Lord's earthly ministry, whether or not he ever laid physical eyes on him.  It's my assumption, given the lack of testimony otherwise, that his primary 'life' at that time had nothing to do with Christ, but was mostly--if not exclusively--concerned with 'being a pharisee'.  I would not be surprised to learn that Saul and Jesus crossed paths in the flesh...maybe much more than that...but I'm not going to learn that from Scripture, therefore 'faith' makes no difference whatsoever.  My personal belief is that he did not have any significant contact (and just as likely none at all) with Jesus Christ in the flesh.  
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

Kat

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Re: Where was Paul?
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2009, 06:59:59 PM »


Hi Gary,

There is no historical or Scriptural record that Saul/Paul meet Jesus before
the crucifixion.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Amrhrasach

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Re: Where was Paul?
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2009, 07:33:17 PM »

He doesn't show up in the chronological history recorded the scripture until after the resurrection.  

We know from the Gospels that Christ had quite a bit of contact with Pharisees in general.  We know He had a low opinion of them, to put it midly.  We do NOT know from Scripture whether Saul (later to be Paul) had any direct contact with Christ while He was alive pre-crucifixion.  

I'm of a mind to remain silent where Scripture is silent.  
 



I try never to turn a blind eye if for nothing more than to cure curiosity.  But perhaps this is a matter that is of little importance since it isn't included in scripture.  Reminds me of this verse:

Ecc 12:12  And further, from these, my son, be warned; the making of many books hath no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

Your position on the matter, Dave, shows wisdom.

Perhaps one I should take as well.   

Gary
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Marky Mark

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Re: Where was Paul?
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2009, 07:56:18 PM »

Quote
And if Paul was taught by Jesus, was it in the flesh? Or was it in Spirit?

Witness for the Spirit.

clv
Act 22:14 Now he said. 'The God of our fathers fixes upon you beforehand to know His will, and to be acquainted with the Just One, and to hear the voice of His mouth,
Act 22:15 that you shall be His witness to all men of what you have seen and hear.

clv
Act 26:15 Now I say, 'Who art Thou, Lord?' Now the Lord said, 'I am Jesus, Whom you are persecuting."

clv
2Co 12:1 If boasting must be, though it is not expedient, indeed, yet I shall also be coming to apparitions and revelations of the Lord. "




Peace...Mark
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cjwood

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Re: Where was Paul?
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2009, 01:18:01 AM »

excellent post dave.

claudia
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