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Romans 1:18-32 Holding The Truth in Unrighteousness
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: LiberatedEagle on December 02, 2009, 12:01:18 PM ---I guess Paul means a carnal conscience of God. But is a carnal conscience of God even possible? The carnal mind is enmity against God and cannot begin to understand the things of God right? That's why I felt the scripture may be referring to the Jews because God showed himself to them and they turned the incorruptible God into a corruptible image. I know there are people who study nature and can see the evidence of God through nature, but nature doesn't reveal the hidden truths of God. i.e. No free will, judgment brings about righteousness, all things are determined according to His good pleasure. I guess it's all the same, you're either chosen or not chosen. No matter how much knowledge you have of God if He doesn't draw you to Himself and empower you with His spirit you will not retain God in your knowledge.
--- End quote ---
Hello Charles,
Paul never says anything about nature revealing 'hidden truths of God' such as judgment bringing about righteousness. Paul says that nature demonstrates God's power and divine nature. Any and everyone sees that...whether they have the wisdom to discern that is another subject. But the fact we exist points to a devine, powerful Creator.
No offense, but I think you may be over thinking things here. Read the scriptures that George posted and continue into Chapter 2 as Ray's teaching on Repentance does.
Also concerning the conversation you were having with your father: you can explain to him mankind being accountable yet God responsible from the scriptures...you can show him how God works everything after His counsel...etc. But if the Lord has not opened His eyes to the Love of God and universal salvation for all mankind, he'll never understand ANY scriptures. It doesn't matter how well you break them down and reason with him, he will not get it.
Hope this helps,
Marques
Deborah-Leigh:
Hello Charles
--- Quote ---Who exactly held the truth in unrighteousness
--- End quote ---
The entire Christiandom holds the truth in unrighteousness not withstanding that quote : Few realize that there is a "church WITHIN the church." When God chooses us FROM AMONG the called, we become separate from their doctrines and sins. Ref LOF Part 13 MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH ( Rev. 17 : 1-5)
Arc
Phil3:10:
Charles,
I think Arc hit the nail right on the head. I personally feel that the entirety of Christianity is guilty of holding GOD'S truths in unrighteousness. I feel it is only those who GOD chooses to call out that can ever grasp GOD'S truths. Christiandom clings to the traditions of men and they like it that way. My constant prayer is that GOD will chose to call out many more, as he has me and many others who visit this site. However, my peace is that GOD is in total control and HIS will is best for all.
I praise HIS Holy and worthy name.
In HIM,
Phil3:10
aqrinc:
Charles,
Ditto on what Arc, Marques, Ninny, Kat, Phil3:10 & still trying to figure what Soberxp ;D has written, Hi Deb :-*. I see great counsel from a multitude of sources, all point in one direction. GOD And our Lord Jesus Christ, as Author And Finisher, of every good thing; that will ever come out of us.
Php 2:12-13(MKJV)
12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, cultivate your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For (Because) it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
A different flavor of the same Scripture below.
Php 2:12 12-13 (Phillips NT)
So then, my dearest friends, as you have always followed my advice - and that not only when I was present to give it - so now that I am far away be keener than ever to work out the salvation that God has given you with a proper sense of awe and responsibility. For it is God who is at work within you, giving you the will and the power to achieve his purpose.
george. :)
LiberatedEagle:
Hello Marques, ARC, Phil3:1o, Aqr
I think I could have done a better job with the way I worded my question. Sometimes I write like I think and create another language in the process ??? :) I didn't intend to imply that Paul stated "nature reveals the hidden truths of God" as I actually believe the opposite. I was referring to verses 18-21 when Paul states that men held the truth in unrighteousness though God was made known by creation, even his eternal power and Godhead. It seems that this group of people were held accountable because God did reveal himself to them as verse 21 states: "Because that when they knew God, they glorified Him not as God, neither were thankful". Was this knowledge carnal or spiritual, or both?
Ray states in his repentance transcript, posted above, in reference to verse 18 the word "Men" means humans, mankind, humankind, and could almost mean the human race. In regards to the word "they" in vs 21, Ray makes reference to the Church as it's obvious this verse implies a specific group of people and not just man in general. Verse 32 states this group of people knows the judgment of God. Understanding the judgment of God is a deeper understanding than just a knowledge of a creator via things of nature, isn't it?
What group of people are Paul referring to here? I don't believe it's the Gentiles, as my bible infers, because they didn't know God, let alone changed the incorruptible God into a corruptible image; To me the children of Israel fits all of the descriptions in verses 21 -32, with the Pharisees and Sadducees and the rest of the world, especially the church, deriving from them. I understand the characteristics listed in verses 29-32 are the characteristics of mankind in general, but doesn't those characteristics derived from the children of Israel? Like Ray mentions in the repentance transcript "sin begets sin".
God showed Himself to the children of Israel first and though they knew God they didn't retain Him in their knowledge. However, the children of Israel were only an example for us that we can't overcome sin without that "heart of flesh" God mentions in Ezekiel 36:26 no matter how much we know of God.
I may be over thinking it. Albeit, I know my dad and most people believe this scripture is referring to mankind in general and not a specific group of people. Thus they used this passage as proof that man has a free will and they choose not to accept God after He has revealed Himself to them which is why they believe many will perish.
Hopefully I explained myself a little better this time. If it's irrelevant as to who Paul is referring to in this passage, whether Jew, Greek or mankind and it's all the same then I'm over thinking it. ???
Thanks Marques, Arc, and Phil3:1o and everyone else for taking the time to respond
Peace and Blessings,
Charles
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