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I don't know what to do.
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Lupac on December 27, 2009, 07:22:04 PM ---Okay, I'm back. Thank you all for your help. I have some more questions.
1. In Hebrews 6:4-6, when it talks about falling away, I've heard it been said that in order for that sin to be forgiven, Christ would have to be crucified once again. Here's what is says in verse 6: (NASB)
--- Quote ---and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
--- End quote ---
I see nothing in that verse saying that Christ would have to be crucified again to be forgiven. Here's the verse in YLT:
--- Quote ---and having fallen away, again to renew [them] to reformation, having crucified again to themselves the Son of God, and exposed to public shame.
--- End quote ---
It sounds like, to me, that by falling away, they make a mockery out of the crucifixion, and will be punished for it. It also seems to say that it's impossible for men to renew them to repentance, but all things are possible with God. (Jesus' words, and the fact that Peter "fell away". I sure one could make the case that Peter wasn't "converted" yet, but he walked with Christ, promised to follow Christ to the end, and casted out demons in God's name. Surely he had "tasted" of the Holy Spirit even though he wasn't "converted" yet, right?)
2. It's about the "unpardonable" sin. Yes, even asking forgiveness hundreds of times, I still feel so worried that I've somehow committed it... (And, by extension, am going to hell. (I know. I know.)) One thing is, in Mark 3:29, Jesus refers to it as an "eonion sin". Now, most Bibles translate it as "eternal sin", which kind of scares me. (I know the word "eternal" isn't in the Bible. It's just my inner fear.) But Young (I quote from Young because it's my favorite translation on BibleGateway.) translates it this way:
--- Quote ---but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;'
--- End quote ---
I assume the word "aion" is in that verse in addition to "aionion" in the Greek. Is that true? If so, why do so many translations leave it out?
Those are my only two questions right now. Thanks everybody.
--- End quote ---
Hello Lupac,
The Holy Scriptures are inspired by God [2 Tim 3:16], not translations. For all the many translations, one could go on and on about why this was done a certain way and another version done differently. But it comes down to the fact that they were not inspired by God for the purposes of "doctrine, reproof, correction, etc." That's why the translations are inconsistent, their intentions for translating were not always the same as what God actually inspired to be written/stated.
I notice you continue to struggle with the 'unpardonable sin'...you even associate Peter with committing this as well. Peter never did so and neither have you. First we need to understand 'what' this sin is:
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=2175.0):
Dear Jennifer:
Jennifer, I have many hundreds of emails ahead of yours, but I took the time to answer your before them all. It is not possible, however, for me to write essay type answers to hundreds and thousaands of emails. I realize that this is hard for many people to understand. Your email is about 6 pages long. If all my emails were 6 pages long, I would have to read thousands of pages each year before I could answer all my emails. Try that some time.
Don't apologize in one sentence and then put me down in the next. I did give you constructive criticism in my answer to you. I said that your theory was not Scriptural, because if it was, then Paul himself would have commited the "unpardonable sin" when he persecuted the Church of Christ in the name of God.
However, I do not wish for you to be despondent over this matter or me.
When Jesus warned of this sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, it was when He had cast out demons. The Scribes said that Jesus cast out devils by the prince of devils (Mark 3:22). The Pharisees also accused Him of this very same thing (Matt. 9:34). And we are told that Jesus gave that stern warning, "Because they said, He [Jesus] has an unclean spirit."
But this alone is not all there is to this sin. Even in the Old Testament, when one sinned "ignorantly," he was held to a lower standard than if he sinned "willfully, knowlingly." God's principles are always true. There was more to the sin of these Scribes and Pharisees than merely stating that Jesus had a devil and cast out devils by the prince of devil. The truth is THEY KNEW BETTER. They knew that they were lying in order to deceive the multitudes who were beginning to believe in and trust Jesus as a Man of God. They were SINNING AGAINST LIGHT. They were sinning aginst WHAT THEY KNEW WAS THE TRUTH. And how do we know this? We are frankly TOLD this in the Scriptures.
In John 3 we have a "Ruler of the Jews" by the name of Nicodemus, and this is what we are told by him: "There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a RULER [this man KNEW what the Scribes and the Pharisees believed behind closed doors] of the Jews. The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto Him, Rabbi, WE [Scribes, Pharisees, Rulers, Jews] KNOW that you are a Teacher COME FROM GOD; for no man can do these miracles [such as casting out demons] that You do, except GOD BE WITH HIM" (John 3:1-2).
It is when we KNOW the truth and blaspheme AGAINST THE TRUE LIGHT THAT WE KNOW, that we then "blaspheme against the Holy Spirit" which is the means by which light and truth is imparted.
God be with you,
Ray
Listen carefully Lupac: If one who knows the truth of God but 'fall away', that is NOT the unpardonable sin. Only God is able to make us stand and keep us from falling away, it requires faith from God [Eph 2:8]. Don't ever think just because you stumble along in your walk that you are committing this sin because again, that is NOT what the unpardonable sin is.
The unpardonable sin is this: when one knows the truth of God and all its goodness but blasphemes AGAINST these truths. In other words, when one calls the light of God DARKNESS, even when they KNOW what the light really is, or at least perceive it.
Have you ever thought that the sovereignty of God, salvation of all mankind, the love of God, etc as something that is evil, wicked, or vile? Seems absurd doesn't it? Well keep that in mind if you ever think about the 'unpardonable sin' again.
Hope this helps,
Marques
Terry:
Hi Lupac,
(And, by extension, am going to hell.
You can't go to a place that doesn't exist,
When God lead me to Bible Truths i was just like you full of doubt and fear and that was why he lead me here so he could replace doubt and fear with Truth.
Theres no way i can give you Scriptures that you haven't already heard ,God brought you here for a reason and that was to remove that doubt and fear.
This is how God worked it out for me, i read every email sent to Ray everyone of them and slowly but surely i started to see these things it took months, as Ray would explain things in his replys farther alone in his emails i would remember other things that he had said and all of a sudden it was like a puzzle the pieces started to fall in place, and then after that i read everything on the home page getting a little here a little there,man can't make you see these things its God that will reveal these things to you by his Spirit its hard to explain it its like i would read something over and over and then over again and i still couldn't see it and then praise God it would be like a light went off in my head and i would see it i think thats the way it is with most people God lead you here and it was for a reason so don't beat yourself up God will show you these things in his time so just dig in and hang on your're in for quite a ride.
P.S. I've been studing here for about three years and still have only scratched the surface
Your Friend
Terry
Lupac:
Thanks, but I wasn't saying Peter committed that sin. I was saying that Peter "fell away" by denying Christ. Is that true? Also, could someone explain Hebrews 6:4-6? I've heard it been said that to be forgiven of falling away, Christ would have to be crucified again, using that verse. Also, using that one verse, I've heard that the "impossible" is really impossible, even for God, I suppose. That to me, is blasphemous. But can anyone help? Thanks.
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Lupac on December 28, 2009, 12:49:34 PM ---Thanks, but I wasn't saying Peter committed that sin. I was saying that Peter "fell away" by denying Christ. Is that true? Also, could someone explain Hebrews 6:4-6? I've heard it been said that to be forgiven of falling away, Christ would have to be crucified again, using that verse. Also, using that one verse, I've heard that the "impossible" is really impossible, even for God, I suppose. That to me, is blasphemous. But can anyone help? Thanks.
--- End quote ---
I'm sorry Lupac, I was only trying to follow your comments. You are right, Peter 'fell away' by denying Christ as did all the apostles.
Now regarding Heb 6:4-6, no where does it state that it is impossible for God to do anything in these passages. Also, as Peter states in his 2nd epistle, no scripture is it's own interpretation [2 Pet 1:20]. If you continue on in Hebrews 6, the writer explains the end for those who 'fall away' from the truth:
Heb 6:4-8 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
These who 'fall away' were never of the Elect in the first place, seeing that the Elect will not be deceived [Matt 24:24]. In Hebrews 6, these people are likened to ground that brings forth thorns & briers [similar to the analogy Paul uses in Romans 9: 'vessels of dishonor']. Their end is to be burned aka judgment by fire. This judgment will teach the wicked & unbelieving righteousness in the next age [Isa 26:9].
The Elect are likened to ground that brings forth herbs...similar to the 'vessels of honor' that Paul speaks of in Romans 9 as well as Christ parable of the Sower [Matt 13].
Though Peter 'fell away', this was not the same falling away talked about in Hebrews 6, seeing as he had yet to be 'enlightened'. Peter's shame happened before the scriptures being opened to him & the other apostles [Luke 24:45] and the spirit coming onto him and the others [Acts 2].
Hope this helps,
Marques
Kat:
Hi Terry,
--- Quote ---i read every email sent to Ray everyone of them and slowly but surely i started to see these things it took months, as Ray would explain things in his replys farther alone in his emails i would remember other things that he had said and all of a sudden it was like a puzzle the pieces started to fall in place, and then after that i read everything on the home page getting a little here a little there,man can't make you see these things its God that will reveal these things to you by his Spirit its hard to explain it its like i would read something over and over and then over again and i still couldn't see it and then praise God it would be like a light went off in my head and i would see it
--- End quote ---
This is the way I see it too. Ray brought out this verse in the last conference.
Pro 23:7 For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.
I have thought about this verse and considered the meaning, it seems to me to be saying your thoughts become your words, your words become your actions and your actions become your reality.
The thought process or mind/heart is constantly evaluating what we take in through sight, sound, taste and is processing it. This is reflected in our speech, the way we act (how we deal with issues and solve problems) and our overall attitude or who we are.
So we have been planting and nourishing all these false concepts/doctrines in our minds all our lives and they grow to form who we are. It will take more than our own efforts to change who we are and learn/understand/know the truth. The only way this is possible is that God's Holy Spirit comes in and then our carnal beast natural is brought into check.
Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
It is a slow process though, we are removing the old/falsehoods by replacing it with the new/truth. But it is like you said we can read something over and over and not get it and all the sudden a light goes on. I think the process of learning precept upon precept (Isa. 28:10) means we have to get one understanding in place before we can go on to learn more. But some false doctrines are so deeply rooted in our thinking that they keep creeping back in and raising their ugly head. So our battle is ongoing.
--- Quote ---I've been studing here for about three years and still have only scratched the surface
--- End quote ---
So true ;)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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