> General Discussions
Is water baptism necessary
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: EJW on December 29, 2009, 12:29:16 PM --- Now do I believe baptism should be done? YES when ever possible.
What about the thief on the cross? He was not baptized, and I don't think Christ told him to go
get baptized or you can't come with me to Paradise. So therefore under certian circumstances,
it must not be necessary.
Marques, I hope this clears up my statement for you. If not let me know.
Be Happy. EJW
--- End quote ---
One question EJW, who decides the certain circumstances of baptism being necessary? And how is this decision made?
Marques
Samson:
Hi,
Below is an excerpt from 11-20-09 General Discussions made to Gallenwash, on another subject, but adds insight to those having difficulty with this Water Baptism issue. Personally, I've seen and know of many people that received Water Baptism in Symbol of Repentance and years later they act the same or are worse than ever, but anyway, below is the excerpt from Kat's Post referred to, in blue found below. I thought it was pretty thorough, it definitely satisfied me.
IN CHRIST - IN SPIRIT
Col 2:10 And you are complete in Christ, who is the Head of all principality and power,
This is talking to the Colossians here, these are Gentiles, these are people who are trying to be the kingdom of the heavens.
Col 2:11 in whom also ye (all of you) are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands (no more physical rituals, talking about the real stuff now, in your heart - in your mind - in your soul - in your spirit), in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ,
People will say, ‘so Ray you are saying that we don’t need to be baptized anymore?’ Oh I never said that. I never said we don’t have to be baptized anymore. We have to be baptized, we have to be circumcised, we have to partake in the foot washing, we have to keep the Sabbath, we have to partake of the bread and the wine… IN SPIRIT.
If you don’t do it in spirit, then forget it. When you go down dry, you’ll come up wet. You will loose some skin and some blood and that’s all. You’ll eat a little piece of wafer and you’ll drink a little grape juice and that’s all. This is the real thing, SPIRITUALLY.
Spiritually you must be circumcised, you must have the foreskin of your heart, that flesh cut off. You must be baptized with Christ, that means you have to die. That’s not too popular, that you have to die to the flesh. The flesh doesn’t want to die. The flesh says, here I am look at me, don’t let me die, pay attention to me, puff me up, make me great, make me important, it’s flesh flesh flesh.
We have to be crucified with Christ.
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
But this next verse is “buried with Him in baptism.”
Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism…
It doesn’t say buried in water. Where do you see buried in water there? I don’t see buried in water, I see buried with Him in baptism.
Col 2:12 …in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
I don’t see anything about water there. You say, ‘well that’s what it’s all about isn’t it?’ Paul said in the first chapter of Corinthians, Christ has not called me to baptize.
1Cor 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel,
He said that’s not my calling, He called me to preach the gospel. This is the gospel. Being baptized in Christ is the gospel and persecuted with Christ, and hated of all nations.
Mat 24:9 Then they will deliver you up to be afflicted and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=4472.0 ---------------
But there is only one body, one spirit. Even as you are called in one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism. There’s only one baptism that counts, that’s Christ’s baptism. Now if your not baptized into Christ, your water baptism is of no value whatsoever. But people want to do the physical, keeping the physical. They think well I have to keep the baptism and circumcision, and every year we have to wash one another’s feet, and we take the Passover or communion, sometimes it’s six times a year, sometimes it’s twice a day, whatever.
Paul says they love the letter, their little communion thing and their little wafer (such a cute little thing) and they take their communion cup and say bless you, bless you, bless you and send me money, money, money. You have to have an anointing cloth and the hands laid on you and rubbed with oil... You got to pay your tithe and keep the Holy Days... You can’t wear mixed fabrics... The clean and unclean foods... You have to keep the Sabbath... You can’t work from sunset to sunset... and it just goes on and on and on. You do all these things and you will be a holy person, it will just make your heart so wonderful. But what it does is it makes hypocrites and heretics out of people.
It’s only ONE baptism and that’s Jesus Christ. We are baptized into His death. You say I thought we were suppose to be baptized in water? No. We are baptized into His death, that’s the thing that counts. It is only one baptism, there is only one circumcision, you either get that one or you have none at all.
Col 2:10-11 “And you are complete in Him, who is the Head of all principality and power, in whom also you are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands…”
No skin, no hands, no knife, that's circumcision, okay. Continuing verse 11 “… putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ.”
That is what it represents, “the flesh by the circumcision of CHRIST!” That is the only way it counts.
Col 2:12 “buried with Him in baptism, in whom also you were raised through the faith of the working of God, raising Him from the dead.”
Then you say, 'alright Ray there it is, we have to be baptized, can’t you read it in context?' The circumcision is without hands, the baptism is without water. This is Christ’s circumcision, Christ’s baptism, Christ is the anointing, it’s Christ, Christ, Christ, all of it.
If you don’t see that, you are just spinning your wheels in physical rituals.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
Kind Regards, Samson.
Marky Mark:
How does anything physical make one spiritual? I feel Kats reply was spot on and to think other wise would be of a carnal nature in and of itself. If the ritual of a physical baptism was of a great importance in ones salvation, you would then have to ask yourself, why did not Christ baptize people in water? He certainly healed a lot of people and saved them from their ailments but baptism by water did not seem to be of any major importance in the healing's that took place throughout Jesus's ministry.
I think if someone wants to partake in water baptism then I would say go ahead,but it certainly is not something that would be needed to be Spiritually converted.This can only come from God and not by any worldly condition of the heart concerning things of the flesh and the shadows of Spiritual reality's.
ISV
Mat 3:11 I am baptizing you with water as a token of repentance, but the one who is coming after me is stronger than I am, and I am not worthy to carry his sandals. It is he who will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Luk 12:49-50 "I have come to bring fire on earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!
I have a baptism to be baptized with, and what stress I am under until it is completed!
Mar 10:38-39 But Jesus told them, "You don't realize what you're asking. Can you drink from the cup that I'm going to drink from or be baptized with the baptism with which I'm going to be baptized?"
They told him, "We can." Jesus said to them, "You will drink from the cup that I'm going to drink and be baptized with the baptism with which I'm going to be baptized.
Peace...Mark
Kat:
Thanks Samson, that's all from Ray that you posted. Here a link to the thread
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,10882.0.html
Hi EJW,
What I posted about Jesus Christ's baptism is that He was doing what was required under the law. He was a Jew and was still practicing the Old Testament laws of Moses at that time. He was doing what the Old covenant required, which was for a priest to be washed/baptized before entering the priesthood. He was 'physically' following the letter.
Luke 24:44 Then He said to them, "These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me."
Now granted earlier on after Christ's death the Apostles were baptizing, because it was there custom. But you will notice that later in the chapter at the council in at Jerusalem, they decided by consensus what was required of new believers and what they should do.
Acts 15:5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."
v. 6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.
v. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
That "yoke" they were referring to was the law of Moses. In verse 24 these Gentile believers were being "troubled" by some to "keep the law."
Act 15:23 And they wrote these things by their hand: The apostles and elders and brothers send greeting to the brothers, from the nations in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
v. 24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no such commandment--
Jewish law 'before' Christ required immersion/baptism for new converts.
[ Jewish law guidelines for accepting new converts to Judaism are called "giyur." Potential converts should desire conversion to Judaism for its own sake, and for no other motives. A male convert needs to undergo a ritual circumcision conducted according to Jewish law (if already circumcised, a needle is used to draw a symbolic drop of blood while the appropriate blessings are said), and there has to be a commitment to observe the 613 mitzvot and Jewish law. A convert must join the Jewish community, and reject the previous theology he or she had prior to the conversion. Ritual immersion in a small pool of water known as a mikvah is required. from Wikipedia, Religious conversion]
So this council of the Apostles, the elders and believers determined what the new converted believers were required to do and sent a letter telling what that was.
Act 15:29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.
There you have what they were to do, no mention of circumcision or baptism, because conversion is not about the physical things you do, but the spiritual change in your heart.
We are to be baptized into Jesus Christ's NAME (Acts 2:28) and baptized into Jesus' DEATH (Rom. 6:3-4), spiritually.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1942.0.html ----
They contintued to do virtually all of the "Law of Moses" in the immediate years after Christ's Crucifixion. They continued to BAPTIZE, they CIRCUMCISED, they KEPT THE FEASTS, they went up to the Temple to pray, etc., etc.
But there spiritual education was not finished at the cross. Remember Jesus' own words: "I have MANY THINGS TO SAY UNTO YOU, but ye cannot bear them now" (John 16:12). Well if not "now," "when?" That was the LAST night He spent in the flesh with His disciples. They were CONTINUALLY taught new things: Peter going to the Gentiles, the Gentiles not required to keep the Law of Moses or circumcise, Paul stopped baptizing, etc.
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I am not against anyone being baptized in water, I just don't see why it would be necessary or the benefit in it.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
E. Woods:
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on December 29, 2009, 01:23:40 PM ---
--- Quote from: EJW on December 29, 2009, 12:29:16 PM --- Now do I believe baptism should be done? YES when ever possible.
What about the thief on the cross? He was not baptized, and I don't think Christ told him to go
get baptized or you can't come with me to Paradise. So therefore under certian circumstances,
it must not be necessary.
Marques, I hope this clears up my statement for you. If not let me know.
Be Happy. EJW
--- End quote ---
One question EJW, who decides the certain circumstances of baptism being necessary? And how is this decision made?
Marques
--- End quote ---
Hello Again Marques.
I would say the circumstances in this case would be, The thief did not want to repent untill he was
hanging on the stake. and then it was too late. And I don't think it was his fault.
As you know it is God who calls people. Jesus said "no one can come to Me unless the Father who sent
Me draws him;" and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44.
Jesus told Thomas, John 14:6, " I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father
except through Me." So therefore I would say the circumstances in this case was God's decision.
The second part of your question. ( how is this decision made?)
Marques, I would say from the scriptures, It is Gods' decision, and how He makes it is all in His hands.
I don't know.
Thanks for your reply. EJW
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