Forgiveness

[EKnight]

Am I obligated to forgive someone who never says they're sorry and especially when it is a repeat offense for which I have forgiven in the past?

Eileen

[aqrinc]

Hi Eileen,

How many times have you been forgiven?, 70x7 is a good start.

Mat 18:21-22 (CEV)
21  Peter came up to the Lord and asked, "How many times should I forgive someone who does something wrong to me? Is seven times enough?"
22  Jesus answered: Not just seven times, but seventy-seven times!

One bit of addition, forgiveness is healing for you.

george .

[arion]

They may not be sorry (now) for what they are doing but we know they will be in the future.  They may not deserve to be forgiven and not even see the need for it but if we don't forgive then resentment starts to harbor and in the long run if we don't forgive we're only hurting ourselves.

Mat 6:15  But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Christ already forgave us even before we knew that we had need of forgiveness.  (Father forgive them, they know not what they do) And I have learned that I don't want to be given to the jailer of unforgiveness and I sure know I want the Father to forgive my many trespasses and this verse is always in front of me as well;

Mat 5:7  Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Since I'm still sort of selfish yet,    I'm going to be merciful because I sure want it returned to me.

[EKnight]

I have been merciful, I have forgiven and I'm tired and angry.  Each time I forgive, it softens me and thereby allows this person to attack me over and over again.  I will not be able to stand my ground and make this person accountable for what he does or fails to do, if I forgive this egregious act once again.  When I forgive, I forget or sweep it under the rug only to have if resurface again when I say something this person does not want to hear. This is not doing either of us any good.  However, if I keep this offense fresh in my mind, if I picture his angry face in mine screaming obscenities at me, I will not let my guard down and I can stand firm against his evil heart! 

How can I get past this?  I'm not sure I want to for the reasons stated above.

Eileen

[mharrell08]

Am I obligated to forgive someone who never says they're sorry and especially when it is a repeat offense for which I have forgiven in the past?

Eileen

Excerpt from Feb '07 Bible Study on Love (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3719.0.html):

We've stepped out of Sunday School now, and we're going to a little higher level.
You can have this agapao love, for something you hate.  What, yes you can, proof, God does.  He hated Esau, He hates a false witness, He hates people.  He doesn't just hate false witnesses, He hates a false witness, that's a person, you see.

The Christian world would have you believe, He loves the world sooo much.  But the Concordance version has it right,  John 3:16 "For thus God loves the world..."
Not how much He loved the world, although it was a lot, but that is not what the word said.  It does not say, for God loved the world so much, no.  It says this is how He loved the world, that's what it means.  He didn't so love the world, He thus loved the world, in this way and this manner. Now in what manner did He agape the world, "He gave His only begotten Son," ok.  But if you say, God so loved the world, then you are insinuating He has phileo love for the world, right.  That He has this affectionate, endearment of friendship with the world, because He so loved the world.  NO.
This is the manner He loved them, He loved them with this agapao love, which has the benefit and future of humanity at heart.  Nowhere does it say, God phileo loves the world, or any sinner in the world, mark that.  This is too deep for the world, they can't except this, the same way they can't except that God created evil and uses it often.  But we have to deal with what scripture says or you might as well fall under the condemnation of the verses that says,  "Because you despise this Word," (Isa 30:12; Jere 23:17),  if you won't believe what it says.

Granted there is a couple of places that is not translated right, but not that many.  That's why I use the KJV.  Even though it has eternal punishment, and there is no such thing as eternal punishment, there is eonian chastisement, two totally different things.  Eonian, age lasting chastisement or correction to make you better, is a whole lot different than torture the hell out of you, for all eternality, in fire.  I mean these are not two same thoughts, they're totally antithesis towards one another.

So this is the manner in which God loves the world, with agapao love.  A love that is undeserved, they're not reciprocating, ok.  Let me give you another example of agapao love, not phileo love.  Agapao love is when they crucified Christ, and He was dying, He prayed to His Father and said, "Father forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing."  (Luke 23:34)  Now that's agape love.
Father these people are blind and deceived, oh they're fools, and they're hypocrites, blind fools as they called the Pharisees in Matt 23, none the less.  Then as it was such a strong condemnation, on the one hand, on the other hand, He says Father forgive them.  Is this a contradiction?   No, it's not.  It's the way God is and we need to be like God, ok.

We can love our neighbor, with an agape love, we don't need to fellowship, hobnob with them or become part of what they are, in any way, shape or form.  When God says, love your enemies.  If it said you would have to phileo your enemies, then I would just have to take my 9 pages of notes here, tear them up, throw them away.  Close the Bible and say, I have not a clue as to what this thing about love is, not a clue.

But I have checked it out for many, many hours now, and I understand that the Bible does not contradict in this area.  God - Jesus Christ, never said you have heard, them of old say, you should hate your enemies.
First of all, God never taught to hate your enemies.  Well, where did they hear that of old?  About five times in the book of Psalms, by David, who went to his death bed hating his enemies, telling his son to kill them and make it bloody.  That was King David, not God.  But people read the Psalms and so you heard it said.  Yes, you did hear it said, but not of God.

But Christ said, but I say unto you, love your enemies - agapao your enemies.  Can you love your enemies and hate them at the same time?  Well, you say no you can't, that's a contradiction.  Well, let's think about that for a second.  Could God hate Esau and love him a the same time?  Not only could He, the Bible tells us that, and it shows that He did.  He shows more favor to Jacob then He did for Esau, and yet you can find some pretty strong promises and blessings (even though He said I hate Esau), you can find blessings on Esau in the Bible I can show you them, ok.

God said, I hate liars and people that cause discord and everything, yet I gave My own Son for the world.  Why?, because I agapao them.
God thinks beyond their couple of three score and ten years of hate and criminality.  I look beyond that, and I see their future - agapao.  Maybe we need to learn to do that too.  If we're going to be like God, right.

We look at these guys cutting somebody's head off, with a rusty butcher knife and your going to say, oh I love them?  That's almost perverted.
I'm going to take some flack for this, don't get me wrong, people will say, oh Ray what is he teaching now.
When you see these people screaming out of fear and terror, for their life.  Now I haven't seen that, but they do show it on the internet. Michael Savage has it on his.  You can watch them cut their heads off, and screaming and screaming while they cut their heads off.  Now you tell me you want to run up and give those people a hug and a kiss on the cheek, and tell them how much you love them.  Anyone - don't be intimidated, if you think so tell me.  I know people who are so self-righteous, that they would say yes I would.  If you would, you are perverted.

Can you look beyond what they are doing, and at how filthy, corrupt and evil they are, and see a time when that evil can be burnt out of them.  And they can be brothers in the kingdom of God.  Can you do that through the spirit of God?  I can, that's agape love.
When I see them, putting a young girl, who has her whole life ahead of her, and she knows week after week, they are going to cut her head off, with a rusty butcher knife.  Just living in stark terror, and you say, I have such a warm feeling in my heart for those terrorists.  I don't think so.  And further more, God never tells us we have to phileo love them as a brother. As someone you would want to hug, go out to lunch with, or do favors for, or kiss them on the cheek.

By the way, this was a revelation to me.  Do you know several places in the New Testament, where it says kiss, it means kiss (a smacking sound, of a kiss).  Well guess what that word is?  It's the same word phileo.
Phileo not only means affectionate love and adoration, and fondness for fellow brothers or sisters, it means kiss, ok.  Because you kiss someone you're fond of, that's how close they are connected.

So God does not tell us, we have to phileo our enemies or that we have to phileo our next door neighbor.
Agapao is a more formal, it's not a give and take, two-way street.  It's a one-way street, forgiving humanity for the evil that they have.

Hello Eileen,

I pasted the above excerpt just so we can understand that a 'lovey-dovey' relationship is not expected from us towards those who follow after the world.

Do you have to deal with this person or are you allowed some space from them? I would seek some kind of space/time away from this person if possible. No one can 'instantly' forgive another individual...you'll only grow bitter and frustrated attempting to do it yourself. God has to give you a forgiving heart in regards to this person.

But in the meantime, while God works that out in you, I would suggest some space away if possible.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[arion]

I will not be able to stand my ground and make this person accountable for what he does or fails to do, if I forgive this egregious act once again. 

I think that one can 'forgive them' and yet hold their feet to the fire for what they have done.  I think the world calls it tough love.  The greater love perhaps, is not allowing him off the hook for what he has done but for his own good to hold him accountable.  If that is your aim then it's for the greater good in the long run.  I think as long as what he has done isn't allowed to fester within you because then it's hurting you.

May God give you wisdom in dealing with this situation.

[aqrinc]

I have been merciful, I have forgiven and I'm tired and angry.  Each time I forgive, it softens me and thereby allows this person to attack me over and over again.  I will not be able to stand my ground and make this person accountable for what he does or fails to do, if I forgive this egregious act once again.  When I forgive, I forget or sweep it under the rug only to have if resurface again when I say something this person does not want to hear. This is not doing either of us any good.  However, if I keep this offense fresh in my mind, if I picture his angry face in mine screaming obscenities at me, I will not let my guard down and I can stand firm against his evil heart!  

How can I get past this?  I'm not sure I want to for the reasons stated above.

Eileen

The ability to hold many disparate (separate) thoughts and act on all, or any, at the same time, is a capacity we either have developed, or are developing; through this Experience of Evil (Ecc 1:13).

Ray has said it correctly, we can Agapeo everyone while only Phileo those that Phileo us. The Scripture below, is to me, an illustration of how we put into practice head knowledge daily.

Mat 10:16  
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

george.

[Marlene]

Eileen, I agree with Marques, that some space from him would help. I don't know , if you remember when I had a neighbor who was very difficult to deal with. She felt like she should know all our business. I cannot tell you how many times she attacked me for no reason at all. I don't know if it is a family member you are dealing with or a neighbor or how it is. But, I had to take time away from her. I told her that it was not good for either of us.  I did forgive her and we were able to set down and talk. I told her that God would rather us stay our distance and just say Hello. There are some natures that will not give you peace. This is not good for either of you. Instead of calling me every day she calls me once in a while. We, do not talk about personal things.

My Husband still cuts her grass and shovels her snow. But, thinking that she can be included in everything we do has stopped.

I gave myself space from her till we were able to discuss things. I really, wanted to talk to her without any anger. When, we did talk I called her and I told her a verse from the Bible that God led me to. I cannot tell you how many times I forgave her. I never regret forgiving. But , she had taken my peace from me and I had health problems, plus I had family members.

Romans Chapter 12 verse 18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. When, I called her I told her that I forgave her, but all that I want is to live in peace. If, we could not do that God would not want us together . This gave neither one of us peace.  So, I gave her that scripture.
She told me she wants to live in peace. Well, that is how we live now. God has even given her a male friend to have fun with. I am happy for her. We talk about once a week now.

God worked this problem out.

Space is good, cause I would hate to get angy and say things that were not right.  That, gives us time to control our emotions.
I hope this all works out for you Eileen.

In His Love,
Marlene

[EKnight]

There is a lot here to think about and I have been thinking.  I go to this psychology site and I just love this guy because he seems to have a grasp on human nature and he is christian, albeit orthodox but he is at least coming from a somewhat scriptural point of view.  Anyway, he has a whole paper on forgiveness and essentially says that forgiveness is a gift we give someone and should not be confused with reconciliation. After all, even the bible says there must be repentance before there can be reconciliation.

He defines forgiveness as:

                   To forgive is simply to stop wishing for revenge or to stop wanting to see the other person suffer in some way. But forgiveness is not blind. Because trust has been violated you cannot just forget what happened or else the same thing might happen again. There's a saying that unless we remember history we will be condemned to repeat it. So let's face it—even though you might forgive a person who has betrayed your trust, your trust in that person has been crushed.

But he also says that you must first fully feel the hurt or pain that the person caused you before you can give this gift of forgiveness.  Otherwise, it might just be repressed and then fester and that is not healthy.

So right now I am going to let the hurt do it's thing and then I will forgive but I just won't be going out of my way to make this person happy.  BTW, it is my son who lives here (he is 24) and he said some wretched things to me and about me.  What hurts is that I may not have been the best mother to him but I certainly have not been the worst and I don't believe I have done anything that warranted his attack on me.  I mean what evil mother would allow herself to be verbally attacked (and I mean words no woman should ever have to hear), and still allow her child to continue to live in her house, eat her food and use her car?!! 

So this is where I am at right now.  I appreciate all of your replies.  Thank you.

Eileen

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Eileen

I hope this comforts you. No one can change until by the Goodness of God, we repent. Until then, we just go on making mistake after mistake until we are delivered from the bondage to sin.

In your circumstance, perhaps you are being trained in Patience that shall have its perfect work in you. 

Jas 1:4  But let patience have its perfect work, so that you may be perfect and entire, lacking nothing.

Compare the focus in Rays teaching from the Repentance Bible Study. quote...

We sin, God forgives it.
We repent, God removes it.

That's the way it's done and it will be done that way with every human being.

All have sinned.
God has forgiven all.
All will repent.
And all sin will be removed.

[Marky Mark]

I mean what evil mother would allow herself to be verbally attacked (and I mean words no woman should ever have to hear), and still allow her child to continue to live in her house, eat her food and use her car?!!

Eileen,as a parent also there is only so much one can do for adult children. To forgive is a fruit that all of us need to apply in our lives.

It sounds as though your son needs to grow up and treat his mother with due respect. I think the best thing that could happen for the both of you is that your 24 year old adult son was to move out and live on his own. Nothing in my experience made me grow up quicker than living on my own and not depending on my parents for life's necessities.

You do not have to be anybody's doormat. As hard as it might seem,show him the door. I'm sure that eventually your son will thank-you for it.


Peace...Mark

[EKnight]

Yes, My husband is handling it now.  I have told him to leave several times but only in heated arguments.  He threatens suicide and he will be homeless, is that what I want etc etc.  I know it is emotional blackmail but it works and he knows it. 

My husband has given him a laundry list of things he must do and a timeline and a deadline.  He will have to follow through because I am just done.  I am seething as I write this because he just started to play his electric guitar which he knows makes my husband's blood boil.  As you know, my other son had cancer but this trial with TJ is far more taxing on us. 

Yes Arc, I believe our patience is being perfected.  I prayed all my life for patience and never thought this was the way it would be given to me. 

Please pray for TJ he is in mental turmoil and needs healing that only God can provide.

Thanks,
Eileen

[Marlene]

That is a hard one when it is family. I will keep TJ in my prayers and you and your husband.

In His Love,
Marlene

[Vangie]

Same here Eileen.  Prayers for your peace of mind, too.

Love in Christ,
Vangie