> General Discussions
Early church fathers?
F@lgn0n:
--- Quote from: onelovedread on January 13, 2010, 01:40:29 PM ---Is it possible that we could be a little more gentle in our responses? I may be a bit sensitive, but Marques' initial response comes over as a bit harsh. His point may be well made but it could be interpreted as a put down of someone seeking answers. I'm just saying, let's try a little harder to ensure that our writings appear to be made in humility. Not everyone is at the same level of understanding. Please feel free to tell me I'm off the mark. I won't take it personally
--- End quote ---
Or perhaps we could it with actual *real* humility (assuming that 'it' , whatever 'it' is, even needs to be done, at all)
:)
daywalker:
--- Quote from: Lupac on January 13, 2010, 10:10:56 AM ---Okay, I've been studying what the early church taught, and it seems to me that they believed in nether eternal torment, nor that Jesus would safe all, but in "conditional immortality", meaning those who are not Christ's would be annihilated. Supposedly, Barnabas, Ignatius, Polycarp, and Justin Martyr all believed in "eternal death". I know Polycarp wasn't a very good Christian anyway, I think he's the one that said the teaching of hell wasn't truthful, but useful. Anyway, did any of the "church fathers" believe Christ would save all? (The earliest ones, not Origen.) I know Paul said that as soon as he left, the "wolves" were coming to deceive the flock. Thanks.
--- End quote ---
Lupac,
You have to keep in mind that as Christianity grew, many of the converts were 'former' pagans; the pagans had all sorts of strange rituals and myths, and many who did convert to Christianity still kept some or perhaps much of their former traditions. We see this especially from the time that Rome declared Christianity as their official religion. In order for this new religion and Roman church to grow and become powerful, many pagans were allowed to come in and become teachers, bishops, and priests, without having to deny their former pagan beliefs.
So, therefore, it's no surprise that there should be differences of opinions between the Early Church Fathers; men like Augustine and Tertullian did belief in endless torture by fire; while men like Origen and his followers opposed them and believed in an eventual "restitution of all" [Acts 3:19-21]. But at the same time, all these men where likewise guilty of believing in other pagan doctrines, not supported by Scripture.
In all this, I concur with the advice of Marques and others who posted before me: All that really matters is what Jesus Christ and His Apostles taught us. All that matters is what the Scriptures teach.
Daywalker 8)
onelovedread:
I love your answer - "tough love" Marques. Hey, you've got to do what you gotta do as long as it's from a motive of love. "Lupac's taking it like a man" (lol) I often wish I'd have gotten some of that when I was younger. I just feel led to go back again to Ray's teachings over and over, studying them and reflecting on the scriptures that so powerfully underline his points. I feel inspired to really get into the Word, to unlearn all the erroneous doctrines of "Christianity" and to allow God's spirit to truly fill me. BTW, One day I want to meet up with all of you guys in person!
Lupac:
--- Quote from: daywalker on January 14, 2010, 10:58:44 AM ---
--- Quote from: Lupac on January 13, 2010, 10:10:56 AM ---Okay, I've been studying what the early church taught, and it seems to me that they believed in nether eternal torment, nor that Jesus would safe all, but in "conditional immortality", meaning those who are not Christ's would be annihilated. Supposedly, Barnabas, Ignatius, Polycarp, and Justin Martyr all believed in "eternal death". I know Polycarp wasn't a very good Christian anyway, I think he's the one that said the teaching of hell wasn't truthful, but useful. Anyway, did any of the "church fathers" believe Christ would save all? (The earliest ones, not Origen.) I know Paul said that as soon as he left, the "wolves" were coming to deceive the flock. Thanks.
--- End quote ---
Lupac,
You have to keep in mind that as Christianity grew, many of the converts were 'former' pagans; the pagans had all sorts of strange rituals and myths, and many who did convert to Christianity still kept some or perhaps much of their former traditions. We see this especially from the time that Rome declared Christianity as their official religion. In order for this new religion and Roman church to grow and become powerful, many pagans were allowed to come in and become teachers, bishops, and priests, without having to deny their former pagan beliefs.
So, therefore, it's no surprise that there should be differences of opinions between the Early Church Fathers; men like Augustine and Tertullian did belief in endless torture by fire; while men like Origen and his followers opposed them and believed in an eventual "restitution of all" [Acts 3:19-21]. But at the same time, all these men where likewise guilty of believing in other pagan doctrines, not supported by Scripture.
In all this, I concur with the advice of Marques and others who posted before me: All that really matters is what Jesus Christ and His Apostles taught us. All that matters is what the Scriptures teach.
Daywalker 8)
--- End quote ---
You're right. I was thinking more of the people right after the apostles. But I realize now that the apostles are it. They're the only ones who got it right.
daywalker:
--- Quote from: Lupac on January 14, 2010, 04:09:26 PM ---You're right. I was thinking more of the people right after the apostles. But I realize now that the apostles are it. They're the only ones who got it right.
--- End quote ---
I wouldn't necessarily say that they were it.. as some did stand by the apostles. But, yes, I would stick with their teachings contained in the New Testament, rather than the many other epistles that didn't make it into the Bible. Read them for historical education, if you'd like, but be sure to consult the Scriptures before accepting something as "the Truth".
Here's a few sections of Scripture where Christ and the Apostles warn their followers [and us] of Church Apostasy:
Matthew 24:5 For many shall be coming in My name, saying, 'I [Jesus] am the Christ!' and shall be deceiving many.
verse 24 For roused shall be false christs and false prophets, and they shall be giving great signs and miracles, so as to deceive, if possible, even the chosen.
Mark 7:7 Yet in vain are they revering Me, teaching for teachings the directions of men.
Acts 20:27 for under no circumstances do I [Paul] shrink from informing you of the entire counsel of God.
28 Take heed to yourselves and to the entire flocklet, among which the holy spirit appointed you supervisors, to be shepherding the ecclesia of God, which He procures through the blood of His Own.
29 Now I am aware that, after I am out of reach, burdensome wolves will be entering among you, not sparing the flocklet.
30 And from AMONG YOURSELVES will arise men, speaking perverse things to pull away disciples after themselves.
31 Wherefore watch, remembering that for three years, night and day, I cease not admonishing each one with tears.
32 And now I am committing you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to edify and give the enjoyment of an allotment among all who have been hallowed.
II Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, fraudulent workers, being transfigured into apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel, for Satan himself is being transfigured into a messenger of light.
15 It is no great thing, then, if his servants also are being transfigured as dispensers of righteousness -- whose consummation shall be according to their acts.
II Peter 2:1 Yet there came to be false prophets also among the people, as AMONG YOU ALSO there WILL BE false teachers who will be smuggling in destructive sects, even disowning the Owner Who buys them, bringing on themselves swift destruction."
2 And many will be following out their wantonness, because of whom the glory of the truth will be calumniated,
3 and in greed, with suave words, they will traffic in you, whose judgment of old is not idling, and their destruction is not nodding
These are just a few of many warnings all throughout the Scriptures...
Daywalker 8)
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