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Author Topic: Concerning God's Will/Intention  (Read 2855 times)

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Ricky

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Concerning God's Will/Intention
« on: March 22, 2010, 01:53:13 AM »

Excerpt from Lake of Fire Part 15-C (http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html):

CAN YOU HANDLE THE TRUTH?
Jesus is at the scene of every crime in the world, and He is there before the crime actually happens. What would Jesus say to a woman if she were in the presence of some slimeball who is hell-bent on raping her little daughter? We know that Jesus is there, but what if Jesus manifested Himself right there, at the scene? What would Jesus say when the woman would beg Him to stop this slimeball from raping or murdering her daughter?

Surely He would stop the crime, right? Well if that be the case, how come there are so many rapes and murders that have not been prevented by Jesus? Do not all parents (almost all) pray for the safety of their children? So the pat Christian answer is: “Well, we don’t know why, but God allowed it.” God no more allows crimes that harm one or two individuals than he allows tsunamies that harm and hundreds of thousands.

I am well aware of the fact that Jesus does at times intervene and stop some crime or evil from taking place. I am now referring to those times when He does not intervene and stop the crime. Why does He “allow” it?


You say, “Well, nobody knows the answer to that!” Oh but we do know the answer. The Scriptures give us the answer. We don’t want the Scriptural answer. We don’t want the truth. We can’t handle the truth. And woe to the messenger who delivers the truth!

And just what do we think we gain by using the catch phrase: “God allowed it?” Does that phrase get God off the hook of responsibility and place the responsibility upon His mal-functioning inventions?   Does the word “allow” carry the connotation: “I had nothing to do with it?” “My hands are clean?” “It’s not my job to prevent evil crimes?” Is this what the word “allow” really means?

    The American Heritage College Dictionary:

    “ allow v. –lowed, -lowing, -lows. 1. To LET do or happen; PERMIT.”

    “permit v. –mitted, -mitting, -mits. 1. To ALLOW the doing of; CONSENT. 2. To GRANT. 3. To AFFORD OPPORTUNITY.

Now then, do we feel better about this theological heresy and nonsense by using the word “allow”? If a Police Officer were to, LET HAPPEN, PERMIT, CONSENT, GRANT, and AFFORD OPPORTUNITY for a horrible crime to take place without lifting a finger to stop it, would he be morally guiltless for “allowing” it to happen? Does the catch phrase “allow” with all of its definitions somehow make void the responsibility of the Police Officer? Is God Almighty less capable and less responsible than even a carnal-minded Police Officer?

Why then do theologians invent their own solution to the problem by applying the unscriptural word “allow” to the acts of God, rather than to accept the plain truth of Scripture concerning these matters? Well, for the exact same reason they invent the unscriptural phrase “free-will” to get God off of the hook of responsibility for the evils in God’s Own creation!   They don’t want the truth; they can’t handle the truth; the truth would convict their own evil and carnal-minded hearts, and they would be forced to humble themselves and repent!

Could any of us honestly say with respect to our presence at an imminent crime, that if we: “allowed, let happen, permitted to happen, consented to its happening, granted it to happen, and afforded it the opportunity to happen,” then our hands are clean? We have no involvement in the crime? We had no obligations, and we are not to be held accountable and responsible?

You know that I speak the truth, but many of you can’t handle the truth.

So am I saying that since God is the Creator of all, and Sustainer of all, and by Him all things Consist, and He already knows all that is and will be, and He works all things after the counsel of His Own will, that all of the crimes of the world are a part of God’s plan? No, that is not my teaching. But this is precisely what the Scriptures say! This is not some perverted theory. I read it in the Bible—in hundreds and hundreds of places!

I have no problem in justifying God in all of His doings, even though I personally am overwhelmed at times over the magnitude of pain and evil that God has subjected us to. It is humbling! It surely does produce God’s desired purpose, and I can personally attest to this fact. Inventing an unscriptural and anti-scriptural term like "human free will" or "free choice" does not remove the consequences of evil from God's shoulders.



Hi, I have many questions with this one. Jesus does stop SOME crime and SOME evil from taking place or happening. What  crimes and what evils does He stop. This makes no sense to me (as always) What scripture says He stops this and that from happening.
           Ricky
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 12:07:57 AM by mharrell08 »
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Your heart is God`s gift to you, what you make of it, shall be your gift to Him.

mharrell08

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Re: God Knows All?
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2010, 06:52:09 AM »

Hi, I have many questions with this one. Jesus does stop SOME crime and SOME evil from taking place or happening. What  crimes and what evils does He stop. This makes no sense to me (as always) What scripture says He stops this and that from happening.
           Ricky


Eph 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Col 1:16-17  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.



Ricky,

When a crime is thwarted, who do you believe is ultimately responsible if not God?



Marques
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Ricky

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Re: God Knows All?
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2010, 01:34:59 PM »

Marques, where do we hear or read of crimes being stopped by anyone? I have never heard of this being done anywhere by anyone. Can you show me 1 or 2 crimes or evils that have been thwarted by someone. This is what does not make sense to me, how does God use man to stop a crime that we will never hear about ? how do we know it was even going to happen ? And when God does stop a crime, WHEN did He do this, at the time just before the crime was to happen or did He stop it thousands of years ago, life is supposed to be predestined.
               Ricky
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Your heart is God`s gift to you, what you make of it, shall be your gift to Him.

mharrell08

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Re: God Knows All?
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2010, 01:51:58 PM »

Marques, where do we hear or read of crimes being stopped by anyone? I have never heard of this being done anywhere by anyone. Can you show me 1 or 2 crimes or evils that have been thwarted by someone. This is what does not make sense to me, how does God use man to stop a crime that we will never hear about ? how do we know it was even going to happen ? And when God does stop a crime, WHEN did He do this, at the time just before the crime was to happen or did He stop it thousands of years ago, life is supposed to be predestined.
               Ricky


Ricky,

I am not stating that when a crime is stopped that this was not against God's intention. On the contrary, God intends for many wrong doings to be uncovered and/or prevented. As He also intends that some do not.

Just here in Atlanta, there was a man who broke out of prison, killing a number of people in his path. This prisoner then took a young woman hostage in her own home. When the police and FBI finally arrived at her residence, and after some talk with offender, he surrendered peacefully and no one else was injured. You can read the entire account here.

Now then, what else but God prevented this man from hurting the woman he took hostage as well as going out in a 'blaze of glory' with the police instead of surrendering and facing a lifetime in prison? 'In Him we live, and move and have our being'...The Hand of the Lord was over every circumstance in this event. From the breaking out of prison, to the taking of a Federal Official's life on the run, to the peaceful surrender...All was of God.

As the Lord has mercy on whom He will, and hardens whom He will...it took a miracle from the Lord to soften this man's heart to surrender, without any incident. One false move from him and he would have been dead...a multitude of guns were trained on him for just such an occasion.

The Lord planned everything that happened in this event, as He has EVERY other thing under the sun since the beginning. It was all of God's Intention that this scenario happened the way it did including the GA Police and FBI STOPPING this offender from creating any more havoc.


Hope this helps,

Marques


Mod edit: I split this conversation off as there were several going on in the original thread.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2010, 12:05:03 AM by mharrell08 »
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Ricky

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Re: Concerning God's Will/Intention
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2010, 10:16:44 AM »

Hi Marques, the Lord planned everything that happened in this event in Atlanta, to me that would mean that He did this before He created life for us? any miracles that happen today that ARE done by the Lord  were already done by Him, BEFORE, HE does not do them today they ARE already done, is this correct?  I have some trouble with this event in Atlanta being consider a miracle by the Lord, it appears that the police were just doing their job talking this man out of it. When the Lord fed thousands of people with a couple of fish, that is a miracle to me. Thanks for all your help Marques.
              Bless you all.     Ricky
                
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Your heart is God`s gift to you, what you make of it, shall be your gift to Him.

mharrell08

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Re: Concerning God's Will/Intention
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2010, 10:46:06 AM »

Hi Marques, the Lord planned everything that happened in this event in Atlanta, to me that would mean that He did this before He created life for us?

I never stated that He didn't and neither does Ray in the excerpt provided. What Ray is stating, and I was trying to emphasize, is that the stopping or preventing of a crime was planned in the beginning as well. We are not in disagreement about that point.

any miracles that happen today that ARE done by the Lord  were already done by Him, BEFORE, HE does not do them today they ARE already done, is this correct?

Any and all miracles today were PLANNED by the Lord...they are not actually 'done' until completed. The Lord planned the children of Israel to escape through the Red Sea but it was not 'done' until they actually escaped through.

 I have some trouble with this event in Atlanta being consider a miracle by the Lord, it appears that the police were just doing their job talking this man out of it. When the Lord fed thousands of people with a couple of fish, that is a miracle to me. Thanks for all your help Marques.
              Bless you all.     Ricky

Well that is simply a difference of opinion but not one that should sow discord. I believe we are in agreement in that God planned out any and all events before creation. The point I tried to present from the LOF-15C was that the stopping and prevention of events, such as crime, was planned out in the beginning as well. All is truly of God.


Thanks,

Marques
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Concerning God's Will/Intention
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2010, 06:10:04 PM »


Quote
If your heart has its next beat, then God did it.  It doesn't beat without Him

That is beautiful John. Thank you for sharing that!

How about instead of being the fish.... looking for the Ocean   :D sorry, just in jest.. :)....how about us being a drop on the Star Board of a Great Ship out to sea and as the Ship tips, we, the drop, in fear and great trepidation, we roll where we do not want to roll and then we fall where we do not want to fall and we meet the Ocean and our self is no longer self as God becomes all in all. No more drop in the ocean...no more ego, no more carnal self....God all in all...no more tear drops! :)

Arc
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Stacey

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Re: Concerning God's Will/Intention
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2010, 04:59:37 AM »

Ricky
Quote
I have some trouble with this event in Atlanta being consider a miracle by the Lord, it appears that the police were just doing their job talking this man out of it.

To you this may not be a miracle, to others its easy to see it was a miracle. You suggest that a miracle by your standard of choice would need to be on the scale the same as Jesus and the fish and thats fine, we all have our preferences but, to others, they do not need that to be convinced of a miracle by God. I thought the Atlanta example was a great one.

Life is a miracle. We all live out a miracle every day. Only not all of us can see it that way and need a bigger sign.
 
Ricky
Quote
What  crimes and what evils does He stop

Any and all of them that are stopped. Here is the proof.
 
Marques
Quote
Eph 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Col 1:16-17  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.




1 Corinthians 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Marques
Quote
All is truly of God.

That's about as truthful and simple as it can be put into words.

Ricky
Quote
Hi Marques, the Lord planned everything that happened in this event in Atlanta, to me that would mean that He did this before He created life for us? any miracles that happen today that ARE done by the Lord  were already done by Him, BEFORE, HE does not do them today they ARE already done, is this correct?

I have heard people use the analogy of life is a movie that has already been made and we are living it out. Which would kind of go along with what you are indicating here that God has already done the miracles BEFORE. Not that you used it but, I don't think the movie analogy is a very good one and neither can I agree with you that God has done anything before it actually happens.

 1 Corinthians 15:28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Things that have not happened yet, including miracles.

The Script may be written (miracles included) for life but the actual playing out of it has not occurred until it happens. And not that you used the movie thingy but just to add to why it really doesn't work; all the characters in a movie already know what their part will be where as in real life, we only know how the movie will end, God will be All in All, but what happens in the mean time in all our parts that we play, we do not know from one word to the next what will be. Only God knows.

Proverbs 16: 9.  A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.



Quote
If your heart has its next beat, then God did it.  It doesn't beat without Him

That is beautiful John. Thank you for sharing that!

How about instead of being the fish.... looking for the Ocean   :D sorry, just in jest.. :)....how about us being a drop on the Star Board of a Great Ship out to sea and as the Ship tips, we, the drop, in fear and great trepidation, we roll where we do not want to roll and then we fall where we do not want to fall and we meet the Ocean and our self is no longer self as God becomes all in all. No more drop in the ocean...no more ego, no more carnal self....God all in all...no more tear drops! :)

Arc

Tipping ships sounds like trouble to me Arc!   :) When a ship moves to and fro in the sea it is called Roll and Pitch. Rolling from side to side, port to starboard or vise versa, or Pitching, the bow or stern of it going up or down. The ship analogy has always been my favorite concerning explaining to some degree how everything works, I'll give you one guess why but, I tend to see it a little different than you.

We are passengers on ships sailing, always moving, rolling and pitching to some degree. Sometimes it is smooth sailing and sometimes its very rough.

God is the Ocean below us and the sky above us. We are in and under mercy, grace and judgment of God each and every minute though out every day. He causes the seas to rise or fall, the winds to blow and be calm, the integrity of our ship to withstand or crumble, sometimes in need of repair, all this by His will. I say we are passengers on ships because so many share very similar life experiences that it seems they may be on the same boat as others and then there are different lives and experiences, different ships in many shapes and sizes on many diverse paths and routes but, all the ships and all the passengers are being conformed to the will of God all the time! I'll stop there.

Sorry to the OP if it seems I might be trying to swipe your thread.  :)


 

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Stacey

Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Concerning God's Will/Intention
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2010, 06:39:13 AM »

Hi John and Stacey

Yea John - snow flakes....like finger prints....much better :D :)

Stacey, the drop on the ship is like our lives when we see the uncertainty and can not control the boat :D :D...The drop could have been a dew drop or rain drop falling from the sky and splashing into a river and going down stream to the Ocean.....It is all good. :)

There are multiple ways of seeing things as the Parables confirm. They speak from different perspectives but say the same thing.  :)

This does not make one parable better or more correct than another. It makes variety the spice of life and unity in diversity is a gift of God.


Arc
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aqrinc

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Re: Concerning God's Will/Intention
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2010, 02:33:41 PM »


Hi Deborah,

I agree with you , up to a point.  I agree no more carnal self.  But, what about a Godly self, a Godly ego?  Billions and billions of widgets exactly the same would soon get boring.  Billions and billions of snowflakes, with the same Godly character, but no two alike, every one different, would make an interesting eternity (oops) immortality.  Think how interesting it would be to go around and meet everyone (even the vegetarians).

John


Hi John and Stacey

Yea John - snow flakes....like finger prints....much better :D :)

Stacey, the drop on the ship is like our lives when we see the uncertainty and can not control the boat :D :D...The drop could have been a dew drop or rain drop falling from the sky and splashing into a river and going down stream to the Ocean.....It is all good. :)

There are multiple ways of seeing things as the Parables confirm. They speak from different perspectives but say the same thing.  :)

This does not make one parable better or more correct than another. It makes variety the spice of life and unity in diversity is a gift of God.


Arc


Yes, Yes, Yes, aka Ditto.

george ;D :-* ;D.

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