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Johns Disciples
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Kat on June 30, 2010, 05:17:08 PM ---John knew He was "preparing the way" for the Messiah, though he did not know at first that Jesus was the one.
--- End quote ---
That's not exactly right Kat. John did know who Christ was and what He came to do:
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 3:34-36 (John speaking of Jesus) He [Jesus] whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
--- Quote from: Kat on June 30, 2010, 05:17:08 PM ---John was there to "prepare the way for the Lord," (Isa 40:3) he seems to have filled a very special place between the old and the new, as he was the last of the OT prophets and was preparing the way for the Messiah, the new covenant. And lived to see bare witness of the Messiah as I believe he did realize Christ was the Messiah at the end.
Luke 7:19 And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come or look we for another?
v. 20 When the men had come to Him, they said, "John the Baptist has sent us to You, saying, "Are You the Coming One, or do we look for another?"'
v. 21 And that very hour He cured many of infirmities, afflictions, and evil spirits; and to many blind He gave sight.
v. 22 Jesus answered and said to them, "Go and tell John the things you have seen and heard: that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, the poor have the gospel preached to them.
v. 23 And blessed is he who is not offended because of Me."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
--- End quote ---
An interesting point of this passage is Jesus saying 'blessed is he who is not offended because of Me'. One of the Strong's definitions of 'offended' goes pretty well: to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey.
Remember, at this point, John had been locked away in prison because of King Herod [Lk 3:19-20]. Only after this predicament, do we read of John sending his disciples to ask of the Lord if He is the One. I believe this shows the progression of those who are called but not chosen. At first, in the confides of the wilderness, John is telling all of Jerusalem of the Christ who was to come. But after being persecuting for standing up in Truth to King Herod, he is now sending his brethren to inquire if the Lord is who He says He is.
As Christ said in the parable of the Sower [Matt 13], when seed falls on stony ground with no depth, after it springs up the Sun comes out and scorches the plant because it has no root. Christ explains this is those who hear the Word, with joy, but when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, he stumbles [Matt 13:21].
Thanks,
Marques
Kat:
Hi Marques,
--- Quote ---Remember, at this point, John had been locked away in prison because of King Herod [Lk 3:19-20]. Only after this predicament, do we read of John sending his disciples to ask of the Lord if He is the One. I believe this shows the progression of those who are called but not chosen. At first, in the confides of the wilderness, John is telling all of Jerusalem of the Christ who was to come. But after being persecuting for standing up in Truth to King Herod, he is now sending his brethren to inquire if the Lord is who He says He is.
--- End quote ---
Thanks for that explanation, I think that sounds very likely.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
GinaMilan:
--- Quote from: titus21115 on June 30, 2010, 08:54:30 AM ---I was hoping someone had something for the following :
Mat 9:14 Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not ?
I am a bit confused by this verse. John seemed to have his own disciples. What exactly was he teaching them ? It seems they were a seperate group from the Pharisees but its confusing to understand why his ministry seemed seperate from the disciples of Christ ?
Any help would be great !
--- End quote ---
Hello,
I think that is an excellent question. He told them that he must decrease and Jesus must increase. I don't believe John was teaching them anything like heresy, such as the heresy that was found in the first verses of Isaiah 58. Even Jesus said:
Matt. 23: 1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
I'm going to give John the benefit of the doubt and say that he certainly was admonishing them to make straight the way of the Lord, Who came to do a different, much better kind of fast -- one that is pleasing to the Lord:
Isaiah 58:6
"Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen:
to loose the chains of injustice
and untie the cords of the yoke,
to set the oppressed free
and break every yoke?
But I believe, even though the bible doesn't directly say it, that the Pharisees put John's disciples up to the question in Matthew's Gospel account; perhaps they were infected with the leaven of the Pharisees? I say that because it was only 3 verses earlier in verse 11 of Matt 9 that the Pharisees were hounding Jesus over his eating with "tax collectors" and "sinners." But they apparently didn't hear Jesus' reply, or didn't believe his report:
vs. 13 "But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
However, in Luke's account of the Gospel, it appears it was the Pharisees who asked Jesus the question, not John's disciples:
Chapter 5:
30 And the Pharisees and their scribes murmured to His disciples, saying, "Wherefore are you eating and drinking with the tribute collectors and sinners?"
31 And answering, Jesus said to them [the pharisees and scribes], "Those who are sound have no need of a physician, but those who have an illness.
32 I have not come to call the just, but sinners, to repentance.
33 Yet they [the pharisees and scribes] said to Him, "The disciples of John are fasting frequently and are making petitions; likewise also those of the Pharisees; yet yours are eating and drinking."
Jesus, did in fact fast:
Matt. 4
1 Then Jesus was led up into the wilderness by the spirit to be tried by the Adversary.
2 And, fasting forty days and forty nights, subsequently He hungers.
John 4:34 "My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work.
And He told his disciples that certain "demons" (sic) didn't come out without prayer and fasting:
Matthew 17:21: But this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting. (This verse is not in the CLV, however)
Mark 9:29: And He replied to them, This kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer and fasting. (In the CLV, "and fasting" is not in that verse.)
No physical rituals saves spiritually, but a physical fasting is not carnal or oppressive, necessarily, and even though we know that Jesus' words are "spirit," they're not spiritual when money and prayer are being spoken about, curiously enough (that's always the "real" deal! haha!). But it's how they, at that time, were fasting that Jesus said should be done in a way that wasn't like the "hypocrites" which do appear to men to be fasting, but really were only disguising their faces.
I hope that helps a little.
Again, great question!
Gina
Deborah-Leigh:
SPURIOUS PASSAGES OF THE NEW TESTAMENT
Matt. 17:21 and fasting
Mark 9:29 and fasting
The words “and fasting” are omitted by both the Sinaitic and Vatican Manuscripts. Inclusion of these words is therefore not scriptural. http://www.bibletoday.com/htstb/spurious.htm
Arc
margo:
Thanks Arc for the link. This looks like a very good link to send those eyes that are not opened yet.
Margo
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