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The Face of Evil

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Dave in Tenn:
Having taken a few strolls through other christian websites, I'm more and more glad for the focus of this one. 

Livelystone:

--- Quote from: Arcturus on July 02, 2010, 06:49:31 AM ---
--- Quote ---are you suggesting that we are not all born into sin
--- End quote ---

Hi Doug

Your question directed to Kat, above, I believe Kat is well equipped to answer. I noted, the “born into sin” concept in your question that I would like to address.
Looking at Ray Smiths insights we can compare anything, be it teachings, ideas, assumptions or feelings and against Ray’s teachings, the Truth can be seen quite clearly.
 
Ray identifies in the post Kat presented,  that quote : …all sin because THEY ARE MORTAL. Adam sinned because HE WAS MORTAL. L Ray Smith

Being “born into sin” is much to much a vast grey area that can lead astray as Christendom provides ample avenues into heresy and blasphemy.  We are not “born into sin” we are born mortal to be more correct. Christiandom does not believe that the soul is mortal so to side step that little aggrivation they make up a new phrase and tell us we are "born into sin".  I find it stupid to think that a new born baby is a sinner, born with sin already concieved out of lust and destined for Christian Hell when in fact a naive, innocent child, which Jesus says we are to become( not as in naive, but as in pure, true and without guile) if we wish to enter His Kingdom, is born mortal not sinful, carnal not spiritual and subject to vanity like we all are as we conform to the council of God that says first the natural then the spiritual.

I am happy to see that you seem to know that Jesus did not sin and I trust you also believe, as we do here in BT, that Jesus never became sin. Lust never conceived in Jesus Christ who was the spotless lamb of God. Jesus is our sin-sacrifice .

Jas 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Lust never conceived in Jesus Christ who was sinless yet at all points was tempted like us.
 
Heb 4:15  For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Welcome to the Forum! :)

Arc


--- End quote ---

Hello to you Arc and thank you for the welcome

Was Adam created mortal or did he become mortal through sin? Did Adam have lust before he had Eve who came from his flesh and became what Adam first lusted after? After all he must of seen the separation that would have happened between God and Eve from her disobeying God yet he chose not to loose having her by his side by following her into separation through disobedience to God.

God told Adam that if he ate from the tree of knowledge he would die that day...... and he did.

I suggest that he spiritually died that caused his boot from the garden and the tree of life. Then he went on to produce evil fruit in Cain as well as good fruit in Abel that was a direct result of eating the seeds of evil and good knowledge ......... He also failed to live out the day physically (a day is as a thousand years) as he did not live out the the thousand years of a biblical day.

What could of possibly been the sin that David was concieved in when he could not have yet sinned himself as he was still in his mothers womb?

The sin I am speaking of Arc is a noun that makes the spirit and soul of man (the adam and eve in us) unclean versus the Holy Spirit of God and the Soul of God (the mind of Christ) that are clean and able to ascend unto heaven where they come from. That IMO is unlike the spirit and soul in us that we were born with that are from the earth and are mortal and destined for death......... good thing as Paul says that without death there is no resurrection.

So yes I do agree with you......... the soul we are born with is most defiantly mortal........ LOL good thing, other wise we would be stuck with it.

To me that is what I see as the meaning behind when Jesus said "let the dead bury their dead" because we (Christians baptized in the Holy Spirit) have been given the Holy Spirit to live by and are to let the spirit of man in us who was 'born unto death" go ahead and die and take the soul of man with it to the grave making room for the mind of Christ who has no sin, to be our thoughts and emotions that controls the actions of our bodies.

I need to scoot but regardless of whether or not we agree on this point....... I stopped letting "points" become to big of a thing for fellowship to endure some time ago........ and this is your house so to speak.

Blessings

Doug

Deborah-Leigh:

--- Quote ---Hello to you Arc and thank you for the welcome
--- End quote ---

It’s a pleasure Doug.

Just briefly, here are a few thoughts inspired from your comments and questions. Further references can be found in much greater depth and detail in Rays teachings.


--- Quote ---Was Adam created mortal
--- End quote ---


He was.


--- Quote ---or did he become mortal through sin?
--- End quote ---


That would mean that immortality became mortality. Are we not supposed to go from mortal to immortal, carnal to spiritual? It is the order of God to go from natural to spiritual and not as Christendom falsely teaches that Adam was made in the Image of God that sinned. That is a contradiction. God does not sin. The image of God does as God does and that is, that God does not sin.
 

--- Quote ---Did Adam have lust
--- End quote ---


The spiritual condition of Adam was that he was created with a weak heart, a carnal mind in bondage to vanity that for me is, prone to lust. Like a recipe for disaster relatively speaking or a formula for success according to the Plan of God.


--- Quote ---Did Adam have lust before he had Eve who came from his flesh and became what Adam first lusted after?
--- End quote ---


I do not know if Eve was the first thing that Adam lusted after. The Scriptures do not tell me that. What  I do know is that Adam desired a mate long, long before God presented Eve to him. Was that desire, lust? What is lust? Jesus desired that the cup pass from Him. Was that lust to save His own flesh? I know, believe and seen expounded through Rays teachings, that God did not let Jesus sin. It was God who caused Jesus not to sin. It was God who made Jesus be pleasing in His Sight who was caused to yield to the Will of His Father and confess, THY WILL BE DONE! Adam was not Jesus Christ. Adam was carnal flesh and to use a expression Ray expounds, he was a “sinning machine.” I believe that. By contrast to the first adam, Jesus Christ is the Last Adam and Jesus Christ was NOT a sinning machine. I believe that too! :) Sin could not be concieved in Jesus Christ though He was tempted in every way. Sin had no dominion over Jesus Christ.


--- Quote ---After all he must of seen the separation that would have happened between God and Eve from her disobeying God yet he chose not to loose having her by his side by following her into separation through disobedience to God.
--- End quote ---

I think it is one thing to see a consequence and quite another to live it. Jesus knew He came to die. Going through it required the encouragement of the Father and the influence making Jesus victorious. He could do nothing without The Father.
That is covered in what Ray expounds through the teachings here. Yes. So, as you state, Adam lusted before and after and because of Eve, the condition of Adams weak heart and carnal ways were made manifest for our admonition.


--- Quote ---God told Adam that if he ate from the tree of knowledge he would die that day...... and he did.

I suggest that he spiritually died that caused his boot from the garden and the tree of life. Then he went on to produce evil fruit in Cain as well as good fruit in Abel that was a direct result of eating the seeds of evil and good knowledge ......... He also failed to live out the day physically (a day is as a thousand years) as he did not live out the the thousand years of a biblical day.

What could of possibly been the sin that David was concieved in when he could not have yet sinned himself as he was still in his mothers womb?
--- End quote ---

This is my point.  I think it more accurate to say we are born mortal. David was born mortal. We are all born mortal. :)



--- Quote ---The sin I am speaking of Arc is a noun
--- End quote ---


Is it a noun or a condition. I think it is a condition of being born mortal, carnal, weak, and as you say, in the state of imperfection and corruption that has to be put off, as in putting off the old man. You say, adam and eve “in us” which can be misunderstood.  Adam and eve are not “in us” BUT we do have to overcome all conditions, all lives in all the OT in order to overcome our own carnality.

As Ray says:
If you cannot identify yourself, personally, with all the stories and accounts in the Old Testament, then you have not even begun to overcome all the carnality that you are. Ref TWELVE GOD-GIVEN TRUTHS TO UNDERSTAND HIS WORD. Truth no 8


--- Quote ---that makes the spirit and soul of man (the adam and eve in us) unclean versus the Holy Spirit of God and the Soul of God (the mind of Christ) that are clean and able to ascend unto heaven where they come from. That IMO is unlike the spirit and soul in us that we were born with that are from the earth and are mortal and destined for death......... good thing as Paul says that without death there is no resurrection.

So yes I do agree with you......... the soul we are born with is most defiantly mortal........ LOL good thing, other wise we would be stuck with it.
--- End quote ---

We don’t want to be stuck with it! It has to change! :D :)


--- Quote ---To me that is what I see as the meaning behind when Jesus said "let the dead bury their dead" because we (Christians baptized in the Holy Spirit) have been given the Holy Spirit to live by and are to let the spirit of man in us who was 'born unto death" go ahead and die and take the soul of man with it to the grave making room for the mind of Christ who has no sin, to be our thoughts and emotions that controls the actions of our bodies.
--- End quote ---

For the mind of Christ who has not sin, to be our thoughts…is a contradiction in terms. There can be no I…but Christ in us…We are to reckon ourselves dead until such time as we ascend to the resurrection to life or judgment. In this life we are in judgment on the House of God now, or not, depending where God has us.


--- Quote ---I need to scoot but regardless of whether or not we agree on this point....... I stopped letting "points" become to big of a thing for fellowship to endure some time ago........ and this is your house so to speak.
--- End quote ---

That is a huge compliment that I have to allocate to all the membership here especially those who are our mentors, brothers and sisters in Christ who help, inspire, direct, assist and bless us all here. So this house is yours too Doug under which we are all housed by our God.

Joh 14:2  In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.


--- Quote ---
* Blessings

Doug
*
--- End quote ---

Like wise to you
Arc

Deborah-Leigh:
Hi John
In regard for your referral to what we are to apply when quoting the Scriptures, here are the following that I believe refer to the House, Aurthority, Rule and Sovereignty of our Lord and God.

We do well to hope to be found faithful. :)

Deu 10:17  For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
Psa 136:3  O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.
1Ti 6:15  Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Rev 17:14  These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
Rev 19:16  And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Arc

Deborah-Leigh:



--- Quote ---...........As with everything else, it all comes from Him..........
--- End quote ---

Excellent! So much peace and rest when and as we comprehend the Sovereignty and Power of God and the absence of our free will. How totally significant and powerful He is! :)

Arc

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