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The Face of Evil
Kat:
Hi Doug,
Here is an email that Ray explains about the idea of 'original sin.'
http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm -------------------
[Ray Replies]
Dear Barb:
As with ALL major doctrines, the Christian Church has not a clue as to this subject of "original sin."
The doctrine taught is that Adam and Eve were PERFECT (after all, could God create something that was NOT perfect? Were they not created in God's OWN IMAGE)?
Well, they were "perfect" in the same way that Satan (a liar and a murderer from the very beginning) was perfect -- PERFECT FOR THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH GOD CREATED THEM.
Adam and Eve ALREADY had lust and disobedience in their hearts BEFORE the serpent approached them. Eve LUSTED BEFORE she ever actually ate of the fruit. Small technicality for our Christian friends.
Now then let's read Rom. 5:12 together:
"Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin: and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."
Now then, WHERE does that verse say that Adam's "sin was passed on to all in the world?" Was "sin" passed on? NO! "DEATH" was passed on.
Are we condemned because of "ADAM'S SIN?" NO! "...for that ALL have sinned." All have sinned their OWN individual sins, they are not condemned because of Adam's sin, but they did receive "death" from Adam in that "mortality" WAS passed on to the whole human race, because Adam did NOT partake of the "TREE OF LIFE," but rather sinned which brought the penalty God promised of "death."
A better translation helps our understanding:
"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind on which all sinned..." (Concordant Literal New Testament).
Rom. 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners..."
They were made sinners by VIRTUE OF THE FACT THAT THEY RECEIVED ADAM'S MORTALITY [DEATH] NOT HIS SIN. We sin because we are mortal [dying]. We have NO SPIRITUAL STRENGTH to combat our carnal, sinning, DYING, FLESH. Hence all sin because THEY ARE MORTAL. Adam sinned because HE WAS MORTAL. "It is appointed unto ALL men once to die"
But there are TWO DEATHS -- spiritual and physical. Jesus Christ said: "Let the DEAD bury the DEAD." Two kinds of "dead" in ONE VERSE. The SPIRITUALLY DEAD, who bury the PHYSICALLY DEAD!
Hope that helps your understanding a little better. One more point: Any human being from any generation in the history of the human race, if put in the garden under the same conditions as Adam, would have ALSO SINNED THE SAME WAY. Adam sinned not because he could have chosen NOT TO SIN, but because he was made too spiritually weak to avoid or conquer sin. God MADE Adam subject to VANITY and CORRUPTION (and "not willingly"). See Romans 8:18-23).
God be with you,
Ray
Livelystone:
--- Quote from: Kat on July 01, 2010, 12:52:02 PM ---
Hi Doug,
Here is an email that Ray explains about the idea of 'original sin.'
http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm -------------------
[Ray Replies]
Dear Barb:
As with ALL major doctrines, the Christian Church has not a clue as to this subject of "original sin."
The doctrine taught is that Adam and Eve were PERFECT (after all, could God create something that was NOT perfect? Were they not created in God's OWN IMAGE)?
Well, they were "perfect" in the same way that Satan (a liar and a murderer from the very beginning) was perfect -- PERFECT FOR THE PURPOSE FOR WHICH GOD CREATED THEM.
Adam and Eve ALREADY had lust and disobedience in their hearts BEFORE the serpent approached them. Eve LUSTED BEFORE she ever actually ate of the fruit. Small technicality for our Christian friends.
Now then let's read Rom. 5:12 together:
"Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin: and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."
Now then, WHERE does that verse say that Adam's "sin was passed on to all in the world?" Was "sin" passed on? NO! "DEATH" was passed on.
Are we condemned because of "ADAM'S SIN?" NO! "...for that ALL have sinned." All have sinned their OWN individual sins, they are not condemned because of Adam's sin, but they did receive "death" from Adam in that "mortality" WAS passed on to the whole human race, because Adam did NOT partake of the "TREE OF LIFE," but rather sinned which brought the penalty God promised of "death."
A better translation helps our understanding:
"Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death, and thus death passed through into all mankind on which all sinned..." (Concordant Literal New Testament).
Rom. 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners..."
They were made sinners by VIRTUE OF THE FACT THAT THEY RECEIVED ADAM'S MORTALITY [DEATH] NOT HIS SIN. We sin because we are mortal [dying]. We have NO SPIRITUAL STRENGTH to combat our carnal, sinning, DYING, FLESH. Hence all sin because THEY ARE MORTAL. Adam sinned because HE WAS MORTAL. "It is appointed unto ALL men once to die"
But there are TWO DEATHS -- spiritual and physical. Jesus Christ said: "Let the DEAD bury the DEAD." Two kinds of "dead" in ONE VERSE. The SPIRITUALLY DEAD, who bury the PHYSICALLY DEAD!
Hope that helps your understanding a little better. One more point: Any human being from any generation in the history of the human race, if put in the garden under the same conditions as Adam, would have ALSO SINNED THE SAME WAY. Adam sinned not because he could have chosen NOT TO SIN, but because he was made too spiritually weak to avoid or conquer sin. God MADE Adam subject to VANITY and CORRUPTION (and "not willingly"). See Romans 8:18-23).
God be with you,
Ray
--- End quote ---
Hello Kat
Well I certainly agree that many of the major doctrines of the church have missed the mark but IMO just because the church has a doctrine does not mean that by its origin from the church that it is automatically false......... and that is coming from one known to be highly critical of the doctrines of the church.
And I do agree that there are two types of death...... one physically that is well known to all as well as a spiritual death that keeps us separated from God while we still remain alive unto he world.
But do you think that if a person could be born into a bubble that would keep them separate from everyone one and everything that they would never know sin or would not be in need of a savior ?...... Personally I think not.
Man was made in the image of God just because both man and God are a spirit that has a soul but man coming into BOTH the image and likeness of God that is the same as what is said of Jesus Christ who is the "expressed image of God", is the promise of God to all of mankind....... or as someone here said "salvation is the fate of mankind"...... I do like that expression!
But if we are waiting for the restitution of all things what are we waiting for if we are only to be given what all of mankind has already been born into and needing a savior?........ or are you suggesting that we are not all born into sin as David spoke of himself .......
Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Did Jesse and David's mother commit sin when they conceived David? ...... I hardly think that
BTW do you know of any scriptures that state or prove in accordance with God's laws on how to gain spiritual wisdom that man is not born into sin?...... I do not and I am quite familiar with the Bible...... still maybe there is verse that I have missed?
Death is by sin just as much as eternal life is the result of righteousness ...... we see this in the following verse
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
[/b]
Jesus had no sin and was therefore resurrected unto life
Why are we all born into death?....... the answer is in the and verse that you have quoted in your post that says because of sin we are born into death
Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Death is the wages of sin and that applies to all mankind including newborn babies who have not sinned after similitude of Adam's disobedience but were born into death because of sin passed down unto them through the seed of each person's father.
Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come
Children die because of sin that is a noun that they are born with just as David was born with it that is the same reason that all of mankind has an appointment with physical death.
Just as sin was passed unto all of mankind so was the grace of God who spared Adam from immediate physical death also passed on to all of mankind.......... so while we are under grace now is the day of salvation through Jesus Christ who was always without sin.
Sin is a rather complex subject simply because in some instances it appears as a noun and not just a verb recording some unlawful act committed by an individual that we normally associate the word with. Paul spoke of it in 2nd Cor 12 as the "thorn in his flesh the messenger of Satan" or in Romans as the "law of sin within his members" that caused him to do what he did not want to do even after being given the faith found only through the Holy Spirit given unto us.
The "law of sin" that represents a noun is by definition "a principality" or in other words defined it a life giving force albeit one that because it is a life that is contrary to God, it is destined unto death..... Thus death is passed unto all of mankind.
The fact that sin exists by law means that it is always present and will rule over us unless there is more powerful law put into play....... aka the law of faith that allows righteousness to be imputed to us just as it was to Abraham.
Because it is always present within man Paul said that when he went to do good evil showed up to him just like it did in the garden to Adam and Eve who were said by God to be part of what He called "good".
Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Going only by the verses that you have quoted in the shared e-mail I can see where one could be swayed that sin was not passed unto all of mankind. However we are commanded not just to live by some of the words of God but by every word spoken by God...... Consequently we are commanded to review all of the Bible from Ge.1 to Rev 22 before any doctrine can be established as true or not true.
Thus when we bring in the other verses that are being presented to you in this post that have to with sin in man, we find it to be just as Paul said...... by one man sin entered into the world.
Blessings
Doug
Deborah-Leigh:
--- Quote ---are you suggesting that we are not all born into sin
--- End quote ---
Hi Doug
Your question directed to Kat, above, I believe Kat is well equipped to answer. I noted, the “born into sin” concept in your question that I would like to address.
Looking at Ray Smiths insights we can compare anything, be it teachings, ideas, assumptions or feelings and against Ray’s teachings, the Truth can be seen quite clearly.
Ray identifies in the post Kat presented, that quote : …all sin because THEY ARE MORTAL. Adam sinned because HE WAS MORTAL. L Ray Smith
Being “born into sin” is much to much a vast grey area that can lead astray as Christendom provides ample avenues into heresy and blasphemy. We are not “born into sin” we are born mortal to be more correct. Christiandom does not believe that the soul is mortal so to side step that little aggrivation they make up a new phrase and tell us we are "born into sin". I find it stupid to think that a new born baby is a sinner, born with sin already concieved out of lust and destined for Christian Hell when in fact a naive, innocent child, which Jesus says we are to become( not as in naive, but as in pure, true and without guile) if we wish to enter His Kingdom, is born mortal not sinful, carnal not spiritual and subject to vanity like we all are as we conform to the council of God that says first the natural then the spiritual.
I am happy to see that you seem to know that Jesus did not sin and I trust you also believe, as we do here in BT, that Jesus never became sin. Lust never conceived in Jesus Christ who was the spotless lamb of God. Jesus is our sin-sacrifice .
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Lust never conceived in Jesus Christ who was sinless yet at all points was tempted like us.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Welcome to the Forum! :)
Arc
Kat:
Hi Doug,
My post to you was a email from Ray. There are numerous articles, emails, Bible study and conference transcripts at the BT site and here at the forum. I thinking you are not familiar with the rules? Here is a section for the to review.
If you are considering joining this forum before reading and studying www.bible-truths.com, please reconsider.
It would be beneficial to all involved if you take the time to familiarize yourself with the teaching of L.Ray Smith first.
This is not the place to decide if you agree with the teaching of L.Ray Smith, but a place you can retreat to when you do.
This forum is primarily a place for people of a like mind to fellowship, and secondarily to discuss and question what they learn on bible-truths.com.
If you seriously disagree with Ray, please email him directly.
This is just to help you understand what the purpose of this forum is. We do not debate our own ideas, as there would be much confusion and little agreement if we did so (like all the other Christian forums). Take time to read through some of the articles at Bibletruth.com, either you agree with what is taught and this is the place for you or not.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Craig:
Right O Kat,
Let me also chime in, nobody here is required to believe anything here, we just ask you respect the rules and refrain from posting things that run contrary. I for one don't care if somebody here believes God is a little green man who lives on a marshmallow called the Moon. If you wish to fellowship with us just keep the forum purpose in mind. I believe and study a whole lot Ray does not cover, but I don't bring these things to the forum (if I did you would wonder what I was smoking ;D)
Craig
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