> General Discussions
bIBLICAL VERIFICATION: re: animals
Ninny:
Duane,
If you recall, Ray says and does give many, many verses telling us that PEOPLE don't go to heaven OR hell when they die...That just should tell you that what goes for one should go for the others..If people are asleep in their graves until the resurrection, then why would pets go to heaven or hell when they die? When our spirit goes back to God...that is just the breath that keeps us alive, the air we breathe...I think God does keep our characters and our personality to return to us in that day...that may just be my personal opinion...I don't have a specific scripture for that...but that is just information, nothing living! Like Dennis said, we just don't know...but we do know that God loves us with an amazing love!! :) For some reason 2Tim 1:12 comes to mind, the last part of that verse says "...for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I've committed unto Him against that day." that doesn't prove anything for pets, but it tells me that whatever we have committed to Him will be with Him until He restores it to us on that day...I'm assuming that is the resurrection...?
Kathy :)
Samson:
--- Quote from: Dennis Vogel on July 19, 2010, 06:55:29 PM ---
--- Quote ---what is the harm or hurt in enjoying your favorite pet(s) in heaven?
--- End quote ---
Depends. Why do you enjoy your pet now? Is it because they are loyal and love you with no regard to your faults? Will you still have that desire (need) to be loved unconditionally (vanity?) in the next life?
A loyal dog almost worships it's owner. It gets all excited and dances around when it simply sees it owner. Would that be acceptable in the next life?
Perhaps God does have a place for our pets in the next life. I don't know.
--- End quote ---
Duane,
I agree that the Post of Dennis found above basically covers and drives home the point and He concludes with I don't know. If the Scriptures are not explicitly clear on a matter, we tread dangerous water by speculating further or beyond what's clearly stated. We can begin to imply different things from verses we've read. In Colossians chapter one, it mentions Jesus reconciling all things to himself. In regards to Spirit, the primary meaning of Ruaah is Breath and Life force.
The Scriptures refer to ru'ahh or life force as being not only in Humans, but also in Animals.(Gen.6:17; 7:15,22). Ecclesiastes 3:18-22 shows that Man dies in the same manner as the beasts, for " they all have one spirit(ruahh), so there is no superiority of man over the beast, that is, as to the life force common to both. It is clear that the "spirit" or life force(ruahh) as used in this sense is impersonal. Psalm. 146:3,4 says the spirit goes out, he goes back to the ground and thoughts perish. No conscious thought remains.
All of the above requires a Resurrection in order for anyone to live again, so Our hope is in the Resurrection from the dead. There are no examples in Scripture of any animals or beasts being Resurrected and living again or promises to that affect. I stated above the comment about treading dangerous ground in speculating about any future for animals because we had a Thread in Off-Topic Discussions last summer entitled "Pets in God's Kingdom" which lead to much speculation. Yes it would nice to see Our loved pets again, especially when at times they seem to act better than most people. However, to venture too far as to any hope beyond the Grave regarding animals, I venture not.
Kind Regards, Samson.
Deborah-Leigh:
Hi Duane
--- Quote ---However, Ray writes "Beasts (animals) don't go to heaven or hell when they die." ....
--- End quote ---
Neither do humans go to heaven or hell when we die physically. It is liberating to know there is no such thing as endless punnishment, torture or torment in Hell reserved for anyone. What happens is:
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath [Heb. - spirit]; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
--- Quote ---If all SPIRITS return to God at death,
--- End quote ---
There can be no doubt that all spirits return to God at death.
Psa 104:24 O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches
Psa 104:25 So is this great and wide sea, wherein are things creeping innumerable, both small and great beasts.
Psa 104:26 There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.
Psa 104:27 These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season.
Psa 104:28 That thou givest them they gather: thou openest thine hand, they are filled with good.
Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath [ruach-spirit], they die, and return to their dust.
Psa 104:30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit [same word-ruach], they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
--- Quote ---If …………. heaven is not a PHYSICAL PLACE
--- End quote ---
Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Ray also asserts as do the Scriptures, that heaven is a realm. The kingdom…realm, empire, monarchy, sovereignty or territory, is within, contained, inside not outside of YOU and I. This is a conceptual reality not a physical one.
--- Quote ---what is the harm or hurt in enjoying your favorite pet(s) in heaven
--- End quote ---
Asking what is the harm or hurt in enjoying your favorite pet in heaven could also apply to every other physical item like flowers, birds, perfumes, foods or any other” thing” that God creates for our sake.
2Co 4:15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
We can only find our fulfillment and complete reconciliation with God, in God, not IN any “thing” of God but God Himself. Not what God makes or does but in Who God IS. This is like loving the King not for His Palace Powers and Principalities Assets or Acquisitions but for Who God is. God is Love.
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by Him to reconcile ALL THINGS unto Himself; by Him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
One day we shall all know the pleasure and fulfillment in the perfection of Christ and our senses and appreciations shall no longer be anchored in things that perish or die, or are made or created, but only in the Creator of heaven and of earth wherein all our tears will be wiped away. God knows how He will do that and His Word promises that He Will. 8)
Arc
anniej:
One day I'll stand before You, bare with no pretenses
Delighting in Your splendid sight
And the way You move my senses
I'm caught up in the thought of You
(Lyrics to a song I wrote)
Yes, Arc! He will be our All in All one day! What you said is right on!
Annie
arion:
I've considered this question before as well as I too, have had beloved pets that were taken in death. However, consider;
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
When we are in our glorified spiritual bodies to judge this earth with Christ and to bring this world to salvation, and then in looking at that point which 'eye hath not seen or ear heard' will we be concerned with lessor things such as dogs and cats that are important to us now? That would be like us now having a glorious vista of majestic mountains and meadows before us and being preoccupied with a blade of grass. Personally, I don't think these lessor things will even enter our minds when we are beholding the fullness of God's glory and plan.
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